Newbe with a weird question

[Zem]

Hey guys!

I've never posted to the beer boards, thouhg I've been a mead maker for four years now. I started when I was 21 after realizing I could no longer drink beer due to a gluten intolerance (celiac).

(gluten is a protein found in wheat, rye, barley, spelt, and often oats--wild oats might bo okay)

Recently someone suggested I make a pseudo beer using my mead know how, using honey in place of barley malt.
roughly heres what I'm thinking:

• Honey must set to roughly 5% potential alcohol.
• Ale yeast
• hops in boil (I wont boil the honey)
• Some malted non gluten grain (for body--do I need this or will it just complicate/spoil a good honey/hops brew?)

I know essentially how to malt my own grain, but I wonder if anyone has a good suggestion that would add something good.

The grains I thought might work are buckwheat, millet, wild rice, amaranth, hempseed, flax. Corn, white and brown rice are also okay...but I don’t know if they'd taste good in a beer.

I haven’t had a good tasting beer in 3 or 4 years! If any of you have made a gluten free beer, or could offer any advice would truly be appreciated!

~Wolfie

 

[akueck]

Hmm, does anyone know if gluten can be broken down by the protein enzymes in malted grains? Could a really, really long protein rest destroy enough gluten to make it tolerable??

I don't know much about the others, but hemp and flax have a lot of oils in them. Would malting help reduce that? Too much oil in the beer will kill the head; there may not be significant extra flavor contributions from the oil though if no head doesn't bother you. (incidentally, I think a really long protein rest would kill the head too, but at least you could use barley.)

Corn and rice are commonly used for large portions of the grist in domestic light beers--that should give you an idea of the flavor profile. It's certainly not terrible to add some of these, but I would recommend you stay away from adding them in signficant quantities (>25%, maybe).

Tarot made something with rice and honey that supposedly tasted like beer. Maybe you can check that out too.

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but malto-dextrin is often added for body. It's available as a powder, so it might not have glutens in it. Also, ale yeasts might not eat all the honey sugars, so you might be ok body-wise without having to add something.

Last thing, watch out when boiling hops in plain water. Hop utilization goes up as SG goes down, so you'll need less hops for the same hop bitterness/flavor.

Total bummer not being able to drink beer. My sympathies.

 

[Zem]

hmm....
Interesting stuff.

Okay heres the part where I display my entire lack of knowledge about beers...

#1) I am under the impression that virtually all of the fermentable sugars in a beer come from the barley malt, the other grains used give varying character to the beer (as well as a slight gavity boost).

right?

So in that case I could make a "beer" using honey in the place of malted barley, then for the >25% of my sugars I could malt brown rice, amaranth and wild rice and use those right?

Last thing, watch out when boiling hops in plain water. Hop utilization goes up as SG goes down, so you'll need less hops for the same hop bitterness/flavor.

????

Oh! I get it--So I dont want to just put hops in the boil, I should use the lesser portion of my malted grains or even combine those with maltodextrin (sometimes it is from barley, but I think it is sometimes made from corn if I look around...) to put gravity into my boiling wart--THEN I can add honey to the pot after...

You know...if this is sort of supposed to be beery anyway than maybe I dont need to use the no-boil method, it's not mead making after all.

Not beer making...but not mead making thats sure!

Thanks for the input, I think I'm getting idea's--I'll be researching and asking more questions in the coming week--You guys rock.

~Wolfie

 

[akueck]

Yes, most of the sugars in beer usually come from malted barley. Wheat, rye, oats, etc are sometimes added, like in an oatmeal stout. Some beers have a lot of wheat, like hefeweissen or witbier. But usually it's barley.

I'm not sure how it would come out, but you can certianly use rice etc as a "specialty grain" to provide flavor, color but not that much sugar. It will certainly turn out as a fermented beverage.

For the hops, you can boil in plain water, just make sure to use less than a recipe for beer calls for. Or you can extract the sugars from the rice etc and boil the hops in that. Just a heads up that the hop acids will be extracted faster in a less-sugary boil.

If you want any flavor or aroma from the honey to remain (you may not, depending), I would suggest adding it at flameout (end of the boil) or even after the wort is cooled. If you're not a big fan of the honey + hops flavor, then boil it to kill the honey flavors.

I'm still wondering about the proteases in the mash. Maybe we can find a beer guru who knows which proteins get destroyed and if gluten is one of them...

I have a grain suggestion too: quinoa. No idea what it would taste like fermented but I really like it cooked. Sort of couscous shaped but with a nutty flavor. Yum.

 

[akueck]

Just found this:

http://www.sillyyak.com.au/gfb/gfbrew.html

Sounds like quinoa is hard to malt. Bummer. But it has a nice step-by-step with special procedures for gluten-free beer.

Good luck!

 

[akueck]

Hey Wolfie,

My neighbor just gave up gluten (and feels the better for it), so I was thinking of gluten-free beer again. I came back to this thread and checked around for sorghum extract which Jonnybladers mentioned. Turns out B3 sells it too, and they do market it as a gluten-free product. I might buy a 3 lb container to make a 2-2.5 gallon batch. I'm thinking of using toasted quinoa for flavor, and maybe trying to black roast a tiny bit of it for color. (Maybe 1/2 lb total, possibly might throw some flaked or roasted buckwheat in too if I can find it.)

Another tip that is listed a lot is to not use liquid yeasts, as they contain a barley base. Yikes!

Any luck on your end?
Aaron

 

[Zem]

Hey!

Just about to start with some of these experements myself (now that school is through for 2 weeks). I've been weary of the sourgum beer since I had one on the market (New Grist) which I found unpalatable. But other people have told me there are others out there that are not bad so I am thinking of giving one another try.

Let me know what yoyu start coming up with, my brew store says they'll be stocking sourgum and rice extracts soon. As for adjuncts... do you do them yourself? I have been trying to figure out what adjunct I might use and how to process them.

 

[akueck]

Yeah, I was going to pick up some quinoa and toast it in the oven for some roasty flavors. Assuming I don't burn it instead.... Other prospective adjuncts include amaranth and buckwheat, probably in flaked form and probably also toasted. I figure if I can make toast, I can make toasted grains, right? Either way I'm going to buy a bunch in case I ruin the first few tries. I hear that sorghum ferments out pretty dry, so the starches in the adjuncts should help add some body.

I'll let you know if/when I undertake this (it all depends on the interest of the neighbor).

 

[Zem]

I also noticed a couple of posts for Honey Ales in the recipe search engine, one by Dmtd looked promissing

"Honey Ale Mead"

4 lbs Buckwheat honey
4 oz Styrian Goldings hops
1 tspn acid blend
1 cup corn sugar
1 tspn yeast nutrient
7 grams Red Star Ale yeastMethods/steps
Boil honey and 3 gallons water with 3 ounces hops for 47 minutes, add 1 ounce last 7 minutes.
Before adding hops, skim off the scum that rises to the top.

Cool and pour into fermenter and top to 5 gallons.

Add acid blend, nutrients and re-hydrated yeast.

When fermentation completes, mix with 1 cup sugar, a little yeast and bottle.

Additional Tips
OG: 1.031 FG: 0.997

Using buckwheat honey would still leave it with a lot of body, but otherwise I think thge prominant flavors would be the hops and whatever the ale yeast imparts. Whaddaya think?

 

[akueck]

With a FG of <1, it won't have that much body. Maltodextrin (corn derived?) or lactose would add some unfermentable sugars to bump up the FG a little. High carbonation will also add body, though it will also lower the pH.

Otherwise it sounds like a good idea. The Golding hops are nice. I would skip the acid blend unless it really needs it.

 

[Zem]

(showing my ignorance) What is the usual FG for a beer??

Onother Q:

Another friend of mine is also celiac and no longer drinks, but misses stout. His proposal: make a stout style beer with no sugar additions, only the fermentables available in the grains we add.

Would this technically work? What kind of ABV would I get off of only grain?

Again, thanks for so much info.

~Wolfie

 

[akueck]

FG depends on the style of beer. Light lagers (Miller lite style) can end up around 1.000, but a stout say would probably finish closer to 1.010-15. Beer worts have more unfermentables than fruit or honey musts and beer yeasts don't eat as much sugar as wine yeasts.

I assume in your stout-style beer would be made with non-gluten grains, right? Just raw grains won't give you sugar, so that won't work; you'll need to malt them first. Malted grains should give you 1.025ish per pound per gallon. I would suggest checking out the sorghum extract from B3. Roasted non-gluten grains (you can just do this trial and error style in your toaster or oven) should give you the roasty character of a stout, or at least something similar. The sorghum extract will give you the bulk of the fermentables with little effort.

Why the aversion to sugar additions?

 

[akueck]

I'm not sure if I explained this fully before, but for color, flavor, and body you'll want to add some toasted grains. My plan is to use quinoa because I like it. I can get it at the market both whole and flaked. Here's my plan (for 5 gallons):

Buy about 1 lb of whole quinoa and 1/2 lb flaked.
Use 1/4 lb of quinoa as-is. Toast 1/2 lb whole in my oven at 350-375 F for 30-60 mins, or until it starts to pick up some golden color and a toasted flavor. Toast the flaked quinoa as well, though it will probably take less time. Roast the last 1/4 lb of whole quinoa in the following way: soak for a few hours in water, then bake at 375 for 30ish mins. Raise temp to 425 and roast until starting to blacken. (Don't wait for them all to be black or they will burn. Remove when 10-20% of the grains are black.)

If your oven has hotspots, be sure to stir the grains often to avoid burning.

Once the toasting/roasting is done, you need to gelatinize the starches. Flaked grains are usually gelatinized already, but the whole grains need to be cooked. Cook as you would normally in some water on the stovetop. You can cook the flaked grains while you're at it. This solubulizes the starches so you can get them into your beer.

Once the grains are cooked, take about 3 qts of warm water and mix into the grains. Let sit for about 20 mins at about 150 F, stirring occasionally, then strain the water into your brewpot. Hopefully this water has a nice brown color and tastes toasty/roasty. If it's not black enough for you, roast some more grains and try again.

Add the sorghum extract (about 6 lbs for a 5 gal batch) and water (however much you can fit in your pot without boiling over). Stir to dissolve the extract and heat to a boil, add hops, etc.

The grains will add several things that are good for beer:
Color (more oven time means more color)
Flavor (toasted, roasted, burnt from the oven; plus whatever the grain tastes like--quinoa has some nutty flavors)
Starches (add body to the beer, cannot be fermented)
Proteins (with starches, aid in head retention; also if broken down can be a yeast nutrient)

Don't add too many grains, unless you're going to do some sort of mash (coverting starches to sugars). 1.5 lbs in a 5 gallon batch should give you something like 1.006-1.010 as a FG (assuming the sorghum extract ferments completely). If you want to add more, you'll need to use some malted grains or amylase enzymes to break down some of the starch or you'll have a really starchy beer. (Beano also would work but is highly unpredictable according to what I've read.)

Hope that helps,
Aaron

EDIT: Beano turns out to be unpredictable when used in a fermented beer to drive down the FG (and lower the calories). You could use it on the grains before your boil, and the boil should destroy the enzymes and halt any starch to sugar conversions. If you're planning on using a lot of grains, I would still recommend picking up some amylase enzymes at the LHBS (I know mine has some behind the counter somewhere), as these are designed for beer and not beans.

 

[CosmicCharlie]

Here's one more article:

http://www.byo.com/departments/1535.html

 

[Zem]

You find just the info your looking for in the weirdest places...

This is a double post from the acorn discussion, but once i posted it I realized I might ask the beer brewers on site what they thought. :icon_thumright:

Repost:

Also be aware that honey does contain diastase in varying quantities and was used in ancient times in certain grain/honey brews to convert the starches into fermentables. The level of diastase is variable, as is the half-life of the diastase in the honey. The warmer the temperature the lower the level and shorter it will last in the honey. The fresher the honey the higher the level of diastase.

Oskaar

Wait!! So the enzymes that break down starch sugars in beer are present in honey??
I've been trying to make a braggot or honey beer without barley for a while. The issue I was told is that oats or any other adjunct I tried to put in would only haze the must (wort?) and wouldn't convert to alcohol without the enzymes contributed by the barley.

Are there enough of these enzymes in honey to do it?
Are there other sources of these enzymes I could turn to without adding gluten to my brew?

*snip*..."malting" them (i.e. getting them to sprout) first, which actually is the process that creates the enzymes naturally in any seeds that are then employed by the young plant to do the starch conversion

Does this mean that malting my own oats or amaranth would create the diastase I need?

 

[akueck]

Yes, malting your own grains would give you the necessary enzymes (the tiny plant needs to make sugar too ). It's not as easy as it sounds, or rather from what I've read it's a nontrivial process. The sillyak.com site I linked to awhile ago has a description of malting sorghum and buckwheat. There are other step-by-steps online too (I think Zymurgy or another homebrew magazine ran an article on malting at home a few years ago). Personally I would buy amylase enzyme (if it's gluten free, I'm not sure of its source; my LHBS sells it) or premade non-gluten extracts (like sorghum, available at B3 or eBay, etc). If you like the end product, it might be worth your while to malt your own grains.

Then again, I'm severely space-limited at the moment. If I had a spare room for malting, I'd jump on the idea. ;D You need a way to keep the grains moist (but not soggy!) for a few days to sprout them then a way to dry and kiln them (to stop them from growing more and/or rotting). And don't forget to pull off all the little sprouts (mmm, root beer). After that it's a standard mash, sparge, boil procedure. If the grains you use are huskless, you'll want to get some rice hulls to help with the mash.

My neighbor is loving the gluten-free life, but still no interest in sorghum beer. I might try and convince her again at the end of the summer when my brewing season starts again.

 

[teljkon]

I was just wondering for head retention, torified wheat works really well thats what I have been told any way. Don't know if its gluten free though!
:happy10:

 

[Zem]

Nope torified wheat is a form of wheat and I can not eat it.

As for the malting...How much do I need to sprout? I've sprouted seeds before (hippy thing, you wouldnt understand 8) jk.) and know how to set up a good sprouting system even in a 5 gallon bucket. As for stopping the sprouting, I was under the impression that you parge them (Is that the right word?) by throwing them in the oven until just barely brown...

Buckwheat and oat berries are the grains I am thinking about most seriously now...

On another note: a friend of mine workd at the U of M and may be able to get me the ezyme. Heres hoping.

 

[akueck]

You'll get about 1.025 SG per pound of grain per gallon of wort. So that should help you figure out how much you need. I would assume the dry weight before malting would be only slighly higher than the dry weight afterwards, but you'll figure that out as you go.

For proper base malt, you'll want to dry it gently before kilning it. Kilning a wet malt will give you crystal malt, which is at least partially converted to sugars but has no enzymes left. It will work, but it won't make a good beer if you use all crystal malts (they leave a lot of residual sugars behind after fermentation and thus your beer will be sweet).

 

[Zem]

AKueck you may save the world of GF beer! :notworthy:

So after sprouting I'll need to leave it on a drying rack for a day or so yes?

Looks like roughly 10 lbs of grain...
2 more questions:

1) do you think all oats will be okay? Do I need to malt them all or will the enzyme in say...3 lbs be enough to do the other 7 lbs? and if so should I toast those as well?

2) showing my inexperience here: What makes a stout? What would I do to take a method like the one we've got here and make a stout?

Thanks a mil'

~Z