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cessnat37
05-28-2006, 03:22 AM
There are always references to Jesus and his followers drinking wine during Bible times. Did they drink mead, a grape-based wine, or both? Just curious.

-Dave

palecricket1
05-29-2006, 09:20 PM
Interesting question. I would say most likely wine. Isreal was under Roman occupation at the time, and romans -- as well as their modern decendents -- were notorious for their love of wine, not mead. The Bible uses the word "wine", and while I suppose it's possible that the archiac arameic word for "wine" may have been interchangable with the word for "mead", it is unlikely since most cultures seem to make a clear distinction between the two, much in the same way they make a distinction between beer and wine. It's possible he drank mead, but I'd say it's unlikely.

Dan McFeeley
05-30-2006, 09:07 AM
It doesn't seem likely that Jesus drank mead -- Miriam has pointed me in the direction of Talmudic references to mead, but some of them seem to refer to fermented honey, others a wine/honey combination. Even then, it's difficult for a non-Talmudic scholar like myself to trace the references back to the sources.

In any case, the Biblical references indicate wine as "the fruit of the vine" as the cultural preference.

There is a story about St. Brigid of Ireland changing water into mead. ;D

Yikes, imagine if it could be established that Jesus drank mead. Then you'd have conservative church folk arguing over whether the mead was fermented honey or simply a sweetened honey drink. ;) ;D Not tryi8ng to be malicious toward anyone or their faith -- just speaking from personal experience, sitting in on discussions in Bible studies as to whether or not Jesus drank grape juice or grape wine. :)

WRATHWILDE
05-30-2006, 09:43 AM
whether or not Jesus drank grape juice or grape wine. :)


You've got to be joking... has the culture of intolerance really reached those levels? And what message would that send to those they're trying to teach/convert? The Bible is the literal truth, oh, but not the wine... it was just juice. Right, GMAFB.

Wrathwilde

Dan McFeeley
05-30-2006, 10:09 AM
whether or not Jesus drank grape juice or grape wine. :)


You've got to be joking... has the culture of intolerance really reached those levels? And what message would that send to those they're trying to teach/convert? The Bible is the literal truth, oh, but not the wine... it was just juice. Right, GMAFB.

No, I'm not joking. Doesn't look like you've had much acquaintance with conservative Christianity. ;D ;D This has been going on for a *long* time.

Welches grape juice, in fact was originally founded out of those sentiments. Welch wanted to provide a product for conservative Christians who felt fermented grape wine was "non kosher." ;D ;D ;D

I'm a former member of the Church of the Nazarene, a *very* conservative denomination who feel that a holy lifestyle is marked by certain traints and characteristics, avoidance of alcoholic beverages being one of them, so I'm very familiar with debates of this kind. Because I spent a lot of time with the church, as well as encounters with other conservatives from other denominations, I have a great deal of respect for what they're trying to accomplish, even though I don't always agree with the particulars.

Any Flannery O'Connor fans out there? Her short stories are a good introduction to some of the ideas behind some of the more fundamentalist versions of Christianity, and her background is Roman Catholic. Another author from whom I also learned appreciation of conservative practices of religion is Chaim Potok. I particularly enjoyed "The Chosen" and "Book of Lights."

WRATHWILDE
05-30-2006, 12:33 PM
Welches grape juice, in fact was originally founded out of those sentiments. Welch wanted to provide a product for conservative Christians who felt fermented grape wine was "non kosher."

Ha Ha... the jokes on him. I used some Welch's White Grape Juice for my Pyment. ;D

I was the one giving my Sunday school teacher grief, I think after 3 or four months I didn't have to go to sunday school anymore, I was back listening to the sermon with my parents. Actually they were listening to the sermon, I was in the back row reading books or comics I smuggled in. >:D

I do tend to avoid the religious conservative crowd, I have my own sets of values that I adhere to, the basics follow...

Personal responsibility for everything you participate in.

A personal devotion to nonviolence, unless I am attacked. This extends to not associating to with those prone to violence. I'm usually one of those who will jump in to break up a fight, especially if one party was the aggressor and the other professing an unwillingness to fight.

A Respect of others personal property, and the expectation of reciprocal respect for mine. No theft.

The principle that all Personal & Business interactions be conducted truthfully and consensually. I don't care if society has deemed them legal or illegal, if they're conducted truthfully and consensually it shouldn't be anyones business but yours.

A devotion to the Truth. Which is only overridden by my devotion to nonviolence. If the truth is likely to provoke violence in the other person it will be omitted, or selective.

Any Government, Religion or Individual that actively tries to dictate limits beyond those... I personally have no desire to associate with. Anybody who tries to limit personal freedoms, no matter how well intentioned, has lost the basis of my respect. In this light... Political and Religious groups are at the very bottom of organizations I respect. One exception being the Buddhist religion, whose philosophy I respect very much. Groups that actively fight to maintain our dwindling rights and freedoms, like the ACLU, score near the top of organizations I respect.

I don't have anything against people of faith, or their personal beliefs... as long as they remain personal. Trying to impose or legislate their beliefs on others though immediately earns my disdain.

That's my stand/rant/take on life the universe and everything. I'm an agnostic who believes in personal freedom/responsibility, nonviolence, and truthful/consensual dealings and relationships.

Wrathwilde

Angus
05-30-2006, 02:18 PM
Bravo Wrath. A very sensible set of rules, although I would change some a little.



A personal devotion to nonviolence, unless I am attacked. This extends to not associating to with those prone to violence. I'm usually one of those who will jump in to break up a fight, especially if one party was the aggressor and the other professing an unwillingness to fight.


Unless the choice of violence is consensual. For example, the Martial Arts between two practicing students.



The principle that all Personal & Business interactions be conducted truthfully and consensually. I don't care if society has deemed them legal or illegal, if they're conducted truthfully and consensually it shouldn't be anyones business but yours.


Society does need some limitations on the type of business that is performed between private parties. There are times when a consensual business agreement can have unwarranted repercussions on those who have no influence on the decisions being made. Fallout from others greed, lack of business integrity, or lack of foresight should be monitored and, at times and under very strict guidleines, be stopped.



I don't have anything against people of faith, or their personal beliefs... as long as they remain personal. Trying to impose or legislate their beliefs on others though immediately earns my disdain.


Which I will expand to include those in the entertainment industry (which has as much if not more influence on society than most religions) expressing their political or religious oppinions on the easily influenced youth. Also, those teachers who feel it is their duty to indoctinate their students into a way of thinking rather than just presenting the truth and letting the individual thinkers come up with an oppinion of their own. Likewise with the "liberal" press, who have taken to writing editorials rather than just presenting the facts.

Angus

P.S. To get this one back on track, I do not see any reason why Jesus would not have drunk Mead since:

a) Honey is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible.
b) Mead is the oldest form of fermented beverage.

WRATHWILDE
05-30-2006, 03:26 PM
Unless the choice of violence is consensual. For example, the Martial Arts between two practicing students.


My original draft covered that but was too unwieldy, which is why it became a "personal devotion" to nonviolence.


Society does need some limitations on the type of business that is performed between private parties. There are times when a consensual business agreement can have unwarranted repercussions on those who have no influence on the decisions being made. Fallout from others greed, lack of business integrity, or lack of foresight should be monitored and, at times and under very strict guidleines, be stopped.

I'll agree on some fronts, especially for publicly owned companies, and an adherence to environmental standards. Just because a river runs through your property doesn't give you the right to dump your waste in it... making it unusable to those down stream.


Which I will expand to include those in the entertainment industry (which has as much if not more influence on society than most religions) expressing their political or religious oppinions on the easily influenced youth. Also, those teachers who feel it is their duty to indoctinate their students into a way of thinking rather than just presenting the truth and letting the individual thinkers come up with an oppinion of their own. Likewise with the "liberal" press, who have taken to writing editorials rather than just presenting the facts.

I definitely think schools should teach more logic and problem solving skills. More emphasis on the ability to build and expand on thoughts and ideas rather than just regurgitate facts. As far as the entertainment industry, although they may be more influential than religion, they are merely pandering to the societies tastes, and as far as I can tell aren't forcing any one viewpoint, or trying to legislate morality, or anything else. I'm more upset by the mediocrity of most films than any particular message they might be sending.

Freedom of speech is important. And although I might disagree with everything on one of the "Religious" channels, and feel that they are attempting to brainwash their viewers, I respect their right to do so. Just like I disagree with just about all the lyrics in modern hip-hop & Rap, I still support their right to express competing viewpoints. It's only when they try to impose their view points that I have a problem. I have no problem with anybody's expression of belief. Just the ones who assume they have the right/obligation to legislate/dictate their morality and beliefs on those around them.

Wrathwilde

cessnat37
05-30-2006, 09:09 PM
Thanks for all the input on my inquiry "Did Jesus drink mead?" Didn't realize it would turn into an intellectual exercise.

But all the same, I was thrilled at the response and read all the replies.

Oskaar
05-30-2006, 10:03 PM
1. Get honey

2. Make Mead

3. Drink Mead

4. Repeat


Any other rules are just incoherent babbling to me.

Cheers,

Oskaar

lostnbronx
05-30-2006, 11:17 PM
I believe that William Bendix was the second coming of Christ, and nobody noticed (including him).

-David

kace069
05-30-2006, 11:56 PM
OK here is my 2 cents, mind you I have a no religious philosphies, and i havent read most of these posts but here is my point to this, historically speaking. If I am correct in my thinking Jesus was a peaseant, more or less. In 33ad only the rich, and nobles had tasted honey let alone mead. Only church sactioned beekeeepers would have possesd honey, unless peaseants had hunted for the honey. Wine, at that time probably only about 10% abv at the extreme.
At this time in history people still thought that bees collected honey directly from god!
The thought of a carpenter drinking mead seems very unlikely to me. Knowing a history of mead, beekeeping, and a rudimentary knowledge of Jeusus life, rules the possibility of Jesus drinking mead out.
On a sarcastic note. I am pretty sure Jesus was drinking his own blood, and eating his own body. But who knows. That is left for fundamentalists to sort out.
I totatly agree with oskaars post.

Angus
05-31-2006, 07:52 AM
Kace,

Careful with the assumption about Jesus being a peasant. Remember, he was of the line of David, of royal lineage. The carpenter/peasant descriptive may have just been a decision of the Council of Nicea, created to make Jesus seem more humble than he truly was. If he was indeed of royal blood, then Mead may have been a very common drink for him. (Please note I say "may", as there is no way to know any of this for sure. It is all supposition and conjecture on my part).

Angus

P.S. For a very interesting background on who Jesus was, read The Hiram Key. Gives a whole different view on the history of that time.

Dan McFeeley
05-31-2006, 10:34 AM
I want to be careful to keep the thread on topic and avoid topics that may veer too much into New Testament history . . . here goes.

Kace is right, although "peasant" may not be quite the right word. The family does not seem to have been well off, and likely blended in with their neighbors with no difficulty at all. Although Jesus' family was identified as being in the line of David, the family lived in Galilee, a bit removed from the original seat of the family line. As it was, Jesus in his adult years continued to blend in with the Jewish landscape. The role he played was not unusual at all, which was that of an itinerant rabbi, well known in Israel at that time. There was little hint of royalty, if any, about Jesus or his family. Interestingly, much of what he taught resonates quite well with the school of Hillel, a near contemporary of Jesus. Hillel is also known as the originator of "The Golden Rule." Jesus seems to have been familiar with Hillel's teachings and general approach to Jewish law, especially in his comments on the Sabbbath.

Again, making a *mighty* effort to keep this on topic . . . ;D This has to do with the culture of the times, that of Israel in the first century AD. Much of the culture seems to have focused on wine, which you would expect with a heavy Roman influence. Even today, you can trace areas of heavy viticulture and find that they are more or less conincident with the outlines of the Roman empire.

So, even though there are no written records indicating Jesus drank mead, it doesn't mean he didn't. If he did, however, it likely would have been in rare circumstances, and possibly while staying with guests with a somewhat cosmopolitan background. Mead may have been more common in Roman based backgrounds than in Jewish homes.

If anything, what we're working out is the drinking and dining habits that were prevalent in Israel during the first century, and these would have been somewhat diversified.

Here's a couple of info spots on Galilee:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/galilee.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06341c.htm

Scott Horner
05-31-2006, 11:44 AM
I gave a bottle to my gardener, so rest assured Jesus drinks mead!

WRATHWILDE
05-31-2006, 11:50 AM
I gave a bottle to my gardener, so rest assured Jesus drinks mead!


Temptation... Must Resist... No, I won't say it... Pressure building... Temptation too great... Can't Resist...

And I gave Mary... well lets just say she's the Virgin Mary no more. ;)

Oskaar
05-31-2006, 12:55 PM
Folks,

This one is getting close to being capped. Let's back-off the shots at belief systems other than your own, to me it's just poor form. There are better places than a mead forum for that purpose.

If you want to yap away about that kind of stuff, I suggest checking out here (http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/CoEvan/forumsDebate.html) and/or here (http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/boards_main.AllCategories.asp?Category=129)


adTHANKSvance,

Oskaar

WRATHWILDE
05-31-2006, 01:29 PM
Ah Oskaar...

It's perfectly obvious that the Jesus and Mary referred to by Scott and myself are not THE Jesus and Mary referred to in the Bible... just happen to share the same first name. I met a few Jesus' when I lived in San Diego, so I know the Name lives on... but it's much more likely he drinks Dos Equis. And I was "friendly" with a young Woman by the name of Mary... which is why the response was so tempting. But I'll heed the request.

Wrathwilde

Oskaar
05-31-2006, 03:51 PM
Thanks folks!

Oskaar

UPDATE 06/02/2006: I ended up locking this thread down after additional posts were made that seemed to fly in the face of my request below. The posts were deleted and the thread locked.

thanks,

Oskaar