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View Full Version : Bad customer service--www.beer-wine.com



chiashurb
08-14-2006, 08:25 AM
Background: my cousin is getting married next weekend, and I wanted to have some nicer labels than what I have now to put on the mead that I'm giving him. I ordered PVC seals, bottle wax, and labels (among other things) from http://www.beer-wine.com, 2nd day air shipping so that I would have everything in time, be able to whip up a label design on my computer and print a few out to see what I like on the bottle. The website didn't say the labels were backordered. The website also said "indicate what color you want on the comments field of the order form." The order form had no comments field, so I emailed the sales department right after I placed the order to let them know I wanted white, if it was available. No answer. The box came, to my horror, without the one thing that I was most interested in having: the bottle labels. A note on the invoice said "BACK ORDER will ship separately (UPS Ground) when in stock." This unacceptable--by UPS ground, it will get here long after the wedding. So I called to complain.

Customer Service Rep: "Beer and wine hobby, how can I help you?"

Me: "I have a complaint about a recent order"

Rep: "Certainly, what can we help you with?"

Me: "I ordered a bunch of bottle finishing supplies last week, express shipping, including a package of label paper, and it all came just fine, except for the label paper, and there was a note saying the label paper is backordered. And it says that when the label paper comes in stock, it will be shipped UPS ground. Now, I didn't pay for two-day air shipping because I want this someday"

Rep: "Well, I can change that for you so that it will ship second-day air when it comes in" (so far, so good)

Me: "Well, when will it come in."

Rep: "We don't know" (are you kidding me?)

Me: "Well, don't you think it would have been useful for me to know that when you ordered, to have a notation on your website that the product is out of stock, like your competitors do?"

Rep: "Sir, we have literally thousands of items for sale on our website, and for security reasons we just can't connect that to our inventory database." (Making excuses, never good)

Me: "Forget about it, just cancel the label paper" (Oh look, you just lost a customer)

==========

Things that a customer service person could do better:

1) Apologize for your screw-ups.
2) Don't make excuses
3) Don't say it's impossible to do something that all of your competition does, and that online merchants have been doing for years, just because your inventory is SOOOO HUGE.
4) Answer your customers' emails
5) When somebody places an express order for something that's out of stock, and you have their phone number, call to let them know!
6) Offer an alternative product that you can get to the customer in a timely manner

Oskaar
08-14-2006, 08:58 AM
Along with the devolution of spelling and grammar has come the deterioration of customer service. My negative experience with St. Pat's (along with a growing list of others) and your experience with beer-wine are pretty much illustrative of bad business and poor customer service run amok.

Best thing to do is to write a letter to them, and a letter to your local consumer affairs department and better business bureau. Of course you can always make flyers and pass them out at a large industry event like someone I know once did. I't kind of an F.U. to the company when they come out to their car and see a flyer on it slamming them and their service on bright day-glo, can't miss at a thousand yards lime-green paper. And then realize that all the rest of the cars in the parking lot have the same flyer on their windshield.

Cheers,

Oskaar

DeltOgre
08-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Holy God, that is a great idea. Let's take it one step further... Do it at their store! That'll show 'em.

I was in retail as a young man, and I never, ever acted that way to a customer. I'm telling you, society is falling apart. At the seams. I sound (much, much) older than I actually am, but these kids... (I am shaking my fist/cane in the air, my brow furrowed.)

JayH
08-14-2006, 01:31 PM
Part of the problem is what we value in society. Unfortunately as Wal-Mart has proven that is low prices. When I was I child if you had a problem at the local hardware store, you talked to the owner. The woman that took care of customer service at the 5 and dime (I'm dating myself, I know) was there from my earliest memories till after I finished college, this was her career. K-Mart and Wal-Mart have run all of those businesses out business. Now your tech support is usually paid barely over minimum wage, if that. They either donít have the skills and/or education for a higher paid job, or they are kids that are there just long enough to start figuring out what is going on and then move on to a better paying job.

We all shop the Internet looking for the best prices we can, so the distributor has to cut corners to be competitive and this is one place that they do it. My sister lives in the small town in New Mexico where I grew up. Yesterday she was complaining how all the supermarkets but one have closed since Wal-Mart moved in. She now has to drive 80 miles to the next town once a month to go shopping. However she loves Wal-Mart because it is cheap.

So next time, if you have that luxury, go to your local homebrew shop where you can get to know the owner, or buy from a reputable distributor who you know values good service, even if it means paying a bit more. We as customers have the ability to change this pattern, if we would just be willing to pay for the level of customer serve we claim to want.

Off my soap box,


Cheers
Jay

Angus
08-14-2006, 01:54 PM
I feel that the lack of manners is more the problem with poor customer service these days. Young people are just not brought up to respect anyone, whether they are the parents or strangers. When was the last time someone held a door open for you? Manners are then not taught to the young people who deal with customers.

Angus

chiashurb
08-14-2006, 03:50 PM
So next time, if you have that luxury, go to your local homebrew shop where you can get to know the owner, or buy from a reputable distributor who you know values good service, even if it means paying a bit more. We as customers have the ability to change this pattern, if we would just be willing to pay for the level of customer serve we claim to want.


I used to buy all of my supplies from the LHBS, until my car died and made it largely inaccessible to me. Ithaca isn't the sort of city where you absolutely need a car, but that is one thing it took away from me. That, and access to the woods. If all goes well, I'll have a new(er) car in the next few weeks and the problem will be solved.

Even if I did have a car, though, my LHBS doesn't carry labels and they don't do rush special orders (which I don't fault them for, because they don't claim or pretend to), so I probalby still would have been mail-ordering this one.

DeltOgre
08-14-2006, 04:22 PM
Jay, I couldn't agree more. Well, except for that whole free market economy thing. If you want people to pay extra for something, then they must feel that there is "value-added," to borrow yet another yuppie-coined term.

I have a local feller here that I drive WAY out of my way to go see and get my junk from. Other day, I drive WAY out of my way to go up there, and he's closed. I found another, closer place on the online yellow pages, so I head over there. Better prices, and since I was carrying my one-year-old with me, the young man (!) at the counter actually BAGGED MY STUFF AND CARRIED IT TO THE CAR. You could have knocked me over with a damn feather.

Will I go back there? You bet. I'll still go see Claude, but he's going to have to share me, now...

ANGUS

Blame that one on the yuppies. They won't spank their kids. I could go on a rant, but I won't. Suffice it to say that I believe there is a DIRECT correlation between discipline and respect, and that the bulk of today's yuppie offspring are lacking in both.

CHIA

Ithaca, eh? My favorite 20 gauge came from there...

WRATHWILDE
08-15-2006, 01:21 AM
Blame that one on the yuppies. They won't spank their kids. I could go on a rant, but I won't. Suffice it to say that I believe there is a DIRECT correlation between discipline and respect, and that the bulk of today's yuppie offspring are lacking in both.

There are a lot of liberals who won't either, the difference I think would be that liberals tend to raise their kids to be more tolerant and accepting. Not that this doesn't cause problems as well.

Wrathwilde

webmaster
08-24-2006, 09:27 AM
::sigh::

I am a yuppie, and some would call me a liberal. DeltOgre, you're relatively new here, so just be aware, you're sitting on a Hot Button right now. Put down the labeling, back away from the tarring, and no one will get hurt. Wrath, you know better.

I don't spank, and never needed to. I punish by withdrawing priviledges (toys and such when she was young, and access to car/horse/stereo/computer/etc. now).

Anyone who has met my daughter will tell you she is polite, respectful, articulate, smart and clean. She has the maturity of someone twice her age of 14 (more than some of my friends, truth be told), and she is a model guest when she visits or stays over with friends. She is tolerant and color-blind, doesn't condemn people for their race, creed, religion, sexual preference or the way they wear their hair.

Don't start on the liberal/conservative thing, you'll get me off on a rant about the intolerant doofuses that cherry-pick from the Old Testament to justify their twisted sense of what is 'right'. My answer to that crap is 'can I now stone you because you ate pork last week?'.

That is just *one* of the gazillion gripes I have with narrow-minded, intolerant, self-serving people who can't look beyond their own noses or self-interest and tend to label everyone as less than them. They aren't 'liberals' or 'conservatives' or 'yuppies' or *anything*. Call them what they are: assholes. *That* is a label I will allow. But stay *away* from the whole liberal/conservative thing, or you'll see my ire. I refuse to let that left/right crap pollute my forum.

In short, guys, drop the labels and tarring entire groups of people with the same brush. Because according to your labels, I'm one of the people you speak of. Sure you want to keep on this line?

Vicky - most politicians are immoral self-serving crooks, and those who blindly follow party lines are fools - I've told my hubbie that often enough (so much so that he's actually questioning his past blind party adherance)

Angus
08-24-2006, 10:05 AM
Bravo and well said Vicky.

Teaching your child manners is so important for our society. Our 19 year old was brought up to respect others, and to be polite. And, like your daughter, she projects a maturity far in advance of her classmates and most other 19 year olds I have met.

And you are correct. I did use too broad a brush with my statement. I should have said "a lot of young people", since there are many parents out there who are raising polite and considerate children. Sorry about that.

Angus

JayH
08-24-2006, 10:34 AM
As my dear old mom used to always tell us,
"Courtesy is the oil that allows the wheels of society to turn."


Cheers
Jay

Oskaar
08-24-2006, 01:28 PM
It's interesting about kids and the way they behave. Mostly I've seen that the childrens' behavior pretty much mirrors the parent's. So I know if someone's a complete jaggoff their children will probably be acting pretty much the same way. There are exceptions of course, but it's pretty much that way in the crowds I hang with.

Delt, ya'll need to take a step back from the "Yuppie" thing. I'm a full blown yuppie, and the generalizations don't fit . . . at all.

GIT AAA LONG

Oskaar

webmaster
08-24-2006, 01:36 PM
Here are the ones I live by:

================================================== =========
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."

"A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"

"A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill."

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat."

"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."

"Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy."

"Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done."

"For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization."

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

"A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity."

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss."

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so. "

"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how holy the motives. "

"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
================================================== =

....Some of you may recognize these as being from R.A. Heinlein, possibly one of the most insightful people of the 20th century, IMHO. His words shaped my views during my teen years, and continue to provide sanity checks today.


Vicky - student of life, who wants to be a Long when she grows up....

Dan McFeeley
08-24-2006, 01:47 PM
Vicky - student of life, who wants to be a Long when she grows up....

I'll settle for a Loong. ;D [Hi Miriam!]

Nice quotes Vickie -- worth keeping around.

I'm also a non-spanker. Never had to, and so far so good. Haven't gotten to the teen years yet so I'm crossing my fingers. ;D

Oskaar
08-24-2006, 01:49 PM
I grok.

I find all I need to know about politics, religion, philosophy, etc. here (http://www.radisol.com/cows/). I'm sure you'll see what I mean.

Oskaar

DeltOgre
08-24-2006, 03:43 PM
Holy cow!

Wow, I really wish I had picked this up a while back... I have some crow to eat, and that's a dish best served fresh, to paraphrase...

Vicky, I apologize for the "Liberal" and "Yuppie" labels. I happen to be a pretty middle of the road kind of guy, so people at both ends of the spectrum tend to get me worked up. And I'm with you; tolerance and polite manners are paramount to the good function of society. Unfortunately, at least where I'm standing, that's all crumbling, and in a hurry, at that!

You are definitely right about labeling people. It's never useful, and it's never nice. I'm not a tar-and-featherer... I promise.

Around here, most of the people who actually DO fall into the people group "assholes," of which I was briefly one, until you pointed it out... we're all capable... fall into the category of "yuppie," and that doesn't mean that ALL yuppies are assholes. I know that, and I misspoke... Again, all apologies...

In a certain suburb of Cow-Lumbers, here, there are more assholes than one would ever know what to do with. They seriously all seem to be concentrated in one area. I can't explain it, but you would know if you went there... Anyways...

SO, that crow being sufficiently eaten, it bears mentioning that I do believe in corporal punishment, administered only when necessary. Vickie, you obviously lucked out and got a decent kid who didn't need it. I got one who, let's face it, acts like I did when I didn't know better. He'll need it. I promise.

And again, you are quite right when you mention the fact that most kids mirror their parents' actions, and we do, in fact, see that ALL THE TIME. Around here, that mostly translates into kids looking down their noses at people who deserve their respect, generally because their parents do the same thing... Those people, at least around here, tend to fall into that "category that I shall not mention again." Again, I mean this only as a means of explanation, and not as the prior "wide brush stroke" which I used ignorantly and without heeding the possibility of offense.

SO, what I meant to say, and as a final means of clarifying my position and as a careful and somewhat apologetic vehicle, is that the ASSHOLES that don't LIVE BY GOOD EXAMPLE and TEACH THEIR CHILDREN WELL (Thanks, David Crosby...) are the reason that this society is crumbling around us... And those people fall into ALL people groups.

Lesson learned. Sorry.

I hope that helps...

Oh, and it should be mentioned that if you've ever heard of mead, renaissance fairs, or the SCA, then you DEFINITELY DO NOT fall into the "yuppie" category that I mentioned before. You may be a yuppie where you come from, but you wouldn't be, here... I had in mind a very specific type of person who lives in a certain suburb of Cow-Lumbers. Not that that makes what I said "right" by any stretch of the imagination... just wanted to clarify. Things are definitely a bit "different" around here.

Teren The Valkyrie
08-24-2006, 04:57 PM
I am a yuppie, and some would call me a liberal. DeltOgre, you're relatively new here, so just be aware, you're sitting on a Hot Button right now. Put down the labeling, back away from the tarring, and no one will get hurt. Wrath, you know better.


Hi everyone!
I am Muirghein Tarot's wifey. Vicky.. I have to say that there are good yuppies and bad yuppies.. Just like in the Wizard of Oz ("Are you a good witch or a bad witch?"). You are a good yuppie. ;D

I got tired of my hubby reading these posts to me and me not being able to reply and he wont type what I say. LOL so had to sign on myself.

Teren von der Morgenstern
aka the Valkyrie
aka the misplaced gypsy

DeltOgre
08-24-2006, 05:30 PM
Having re-re-re-re-contemplated all I said, before, I felt the need to further qualify my position on child-rearing...

For argument's sake, let's say that 20 years ago, when "everyone" was okay with corporal punishment (Extremes only for the sake of argument...), then those children who would not respond to "groundings" and the like would get the quick swat on the butt, and they would then understand that what they did was wrong. Vicky, your daughter would not have needed that, since she does, in fact, respond to the grounding sort of discipline.

As a result, the bulk of people out there (Switching gears back to "real life" results...) were courteous and polite to others. Those that did respond to groundings were okay, and those that did not were, too. For the most part, anyways...

FLASH TO TODAY. We have now, as a society, taken things a little too far. VERY few people believe in corporal punishment, nowadays, and the results are that those children who do respond to groundings are okay, but those that do not are not. I have a hard time believing that a good swat on the sitter isn't called for when I hear the mom at the store saying "No, honey... no... no... no..." and the child screaming in return with no discernible response, whatsoever.

All I can say is that I needed my (once) little butt whipped on a few occasions. I got it, and I've turned out just fine...

I do think that all the little pricks out there were basically ignored in the discipline department, altogether, by their parents. Show any one of them the least little bit of authority, and they'll respond to it... And no, I don't mean for everyone to go around swatting people on the behind, although I'm relatively certain that there are some out there who could use it...

I guess the message is that discipline is needed, now more than ever before. Whatever your style, just so long as it isn't "complete pushover." Do it. Too many people, at least around my nape of the neck, are completely controlled by their kids.

It's a crying shame...

I also got to thinking about the whole diatribe about "yuppie," and again, I apologize for my use of that word, in particular, but again, I would reiterate that my particular usage of "yuppie" does not, in any way, reflect what you have self-applied. (I'm looking at you, Vickie, and Oskaar.) Just from what I've read, here, about you, Vickie, you DEFINITELY don't fall into my personal vision of "yup-dom," and I've actually spoken with Oskaar, and I know for a FACT that you don't, either. Granted, I don't know either of you personally, but you just don't seem to fit into my personal scheme of "yup."

Anyways, that's more of a "my problem/opinion" type of thing than anything else... I've just given that sort of term to a certain level of negativity, more based on my present geographical location than anything else.

Teren The Valkyrie
08-24-2006, 06:00 PM
I was born and raised in Alabama. I was raised politely and respectfully. My dad did the physical punishment while my mom did the grounding. I can remember when my dad would tell me that it was time for me to go outside and get a switch. Note that this was only when I had dome something wrong. (Not once did my dad ever abuse me.) He would swat me five times and then explain to me why he spanked me and then he would hug me and dry my tears and that would be that. I use to get my face slapped (not hard) when I didnít say yes sir/no sir or yes ma'am/no ma'am.

One time, I got into a fight at school. I was in fifth grade and actually I didnít start it and I didnít finish it either. This girl shoved me down the stairs and then started hitting on me because of a disagreement. I asked my mom "why didnít you whip her". I got detention and so did the other girl.

When I got home my mom told my dad what happened. He got his belt and spanked me three times.. One was for getting into the fight, one was for not fighting back and the last was for not finishing the fight. At the end, he sat me in his lap and asked me why I didnít hit her back. "My arms were full of books and I didnít want to get in trouble for fighting" then he told me that NEVER take any crap off of anyone. Well I turned rebellious after that because I ended up thinking that meant not to take it from my parents either.

My whole point to this story is that when me and Muirghien have children, I will raise them with spankings and with groundings. If they are not polite then I will correct them.

This whole thing with people telling kids that if their parents "Beat" them that they need to call 911 or tell someone is (in my opinion) ridiculous. YES some people do take punishment to the extremes but when people tell kids that they need to tell when they are "beatin" needs to make sure that the child understands what "abuse" means.

I look around our neighborhood and see kids just running rampant and it all boils down to the parents not caring where their kids are. As long as the kid(s) aren't bothering them, why should it matter? This is not the way to see things. Parents should see to their kids. Talk to their kids and care to know who, what, where, when and how they are instead of depending upon the police to drag them in. This world would be a lot better place if kids were taught "respect". All it takes is common sense.

Okay. I have probably stepped on toes or repeated what others have said so I will end this post here.

Teren

DeltOgre
08-24-2006, 06:24 PM
Teren, nice making your acquaintance... And well put, that which you said about the good yups and the bad ones... I wasn't very clear at first, and it seemed that I was being all inclusive. I hope everyone knows that I'm not a people-hater... That's not what I meant, at all.

Switches... Never had to go get one, thank God, but I've heard some tales. I was never abused, either, but I got some (well deserved) spankings, for sure.

webmaster
08-25-2006, 09:21 AM
OK, you're not quite getting it. Saying 'well, not all yuppies are bad' is the same as saying 'well, not all blacks are criminals'. It is an inherently insulting, demeaning and just plain wrong statement, and not acceptable in this place, which is My Place.

Yes, some people don't discipline their children. I hardly think they're *all* yuppies or whatever. Heck the SCAdians next to me at Pennsic spend the whole war saying 'please stop screaming, honey' to their screaming monster child. I and the other parents in *my* camp kept saying we'd like to go over, pop the child one on the bottom and make the child realize that this behaviour would not be tolerated.

*However*, you don't hear me saying 'those SCAdians don't discipline their children', because that would be an untrue statement. That *person* didn't do her job as a parent. Her group is not in *any way* responsible for her individual action (or lack of action).

If you want to bitch about people who don't discipline their children, *say* "I'm pissed that some people don't discipline their children".

I *am* a yuppie by the original definition of young, upwardly mobile professionals. I *am* liberal in that I think we need to protect our environment and pay attention to the needs of *all* people, not just certain social, religous and ethnic groups. I am also conservative in that I think gun ownership is a basic right, and I will fight to keep that right. I am a liberal in that I believe the choice of whether to have a child or not is *mine*, not the states'. I think our current president is an idiot who is sending our brave soldiers to war for a whim and jamming his religious beliefs down our throats whether we want it or not, and I think our previous president was a fool who couldn't keep his fly zipped.

I think we need stem cell research, and that illegal aliens need to go back home (what part of *illegal* did they not understand?) and come in via our immigration laws. I believe our immigration system needs an overhaul and a lot more funding. I believe welfare is in many cases a waste, and quite a few of those on it should be dropped like hot rocks to sink or swim, as they're just riding the public dole because they're lazy (I know this first hand, a very close friend did *exactly* that for many years before he was caught).

I believe in capital punishment, and the right to defend my own home and family, with lethal force if I believe it necessary. I believe that plea bargaining is bullcrap, and if you do the crime, you should do the time.

You see where I'm going? I'm *many* things. So, no matter what group you bash, you bash *someone*.

No labels. Say it like it is. Bash assholes, or abusive parents, or people who won't discipline their kids. Criticize the actions, not the group they happen to fall into.

Vicky - who *hates* that we all seem to be so blind that we group people by labels. Check it out, we're *people*, ya know? We're all unique.

Angus
08-25-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm *many* things. So, no matter what group you bash, you bash *someone*.

We're all unique.


Vicky,

I think you summed it up well by describing the very nature of what makes our society so diverse and yet unified (mostly). Each person borrows part of so many different groups; a little more of this, a little less of that. We are therefore very similar to some group that we share the characteristics of, but we are still able to be different. This is what makes us unique. Unfortunately, labels are far too prevalent in our society, which is unfortunate because it leads to misconceptions and, in the worst case, discrimination.

Like you, I tend to be liberal in some ways, conservative in others. I suppose my tendency is to be fiscally conservative, socially liberal. I do believe in smacking a naughty child on the butt when warranted, but abuse and neglect make me furious. My better half is Mexican, and she went through the laborious process of legally entering the country, so those that jump the border should be stopped now. If someone breaks into my house and is going to hurt me or my family, I will do anything to stop it. You can see we have similar opinions.

I also am a firm believer in every person taking responsibility for his or her own actions. And from this, taking the blame if those actions are wrong. You can blame a group of people if that group was unified in an action, but each person should be held accountable for the action. And under no circumstances should the behavior of an individual or group set a precedent in another person's mind such that all others who fall under the same descriptive "label" be expected to act the same way from then on. Doing so is just not fair or right.

Angus

DeltOgre
08-25-2006, 12:41 PM
Vicky, I honestly do get what you're saying, which is why I apologized in the first place. I agree with just about everything that you said in your last post. Seriously, we're not as different as you might think!!!

I erroneously used the label "Yuppies," which was erroneously followed by the label "Liberals." I agree! I was only trying to explain WHY I "effed" up... It just shows to go ya that being in a hurry never helps any situation...

What you have said is very true, and has made me question my use of labels, and I've seriously been thinking about this pretty much nonstop since I read your first post. We all disagree with someone, on some level, and we all probably have valid reasons for those disagreements. What isn't acceptable is taking the stance of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong," which is basically what labeling does, and is what I did. I do get it. I just didn't express myself very well.

That doesn't say much for my writing abilities... Maybe I should rethink my career path!

Anyways, I hope I didn't permanently piss anyone off, here... I do have some strong feelings on the subject of discipline and its connection to the further degradation of society. I just wasn't all that careful in my choice of words, in that I applied what I see in my immediate area in an inherently misleading way.

What I SHOULD have said, which is what you said, Vicky, is that people who don't discipline their kids piss me off! It's just that simple, and I should have said that in the first place. So, again, I apologize.

And again, in all seriousness, being young, urban, and professional has little to do with being a "yuppie" around these parts. I am young, urban, and professional. I am not a Central Ohio Yuppie. They are a different breed, altogether. But I will seriously reconsider their current label before I go spouting off about it, again...

"No labels. Say it like it is. Bash assholes, or abusive parents, or people who won't discipline their kids. Criticize the actions, not the group they happen to fall into."

Perfectly said and, again, lesson learned...

Peace,
Ogre

WRATHWILDE
08-25-2006, 12:46 PM
I hope everyone knows that I'm not a people-hater.

I am. ;) Worst of the worst that lot is, run the gamut they do. I could tell you stories...

Cheers,
Wrathwilde
(Luckily for all of you... I have a soft spot for weirdo's, misfits and mazers. If I missed anyone - give me time to reload.)

webmaster
08-25-2006, 01:07 PM
Delt, you haven't pissed anyone off permanently, you just pushed one of my Hot Buttons. You're forgiven. And I have strong feelings about discipline too, and feel that lack of it is probably the major factor in the rise in school killings and violent crime. I mean, how can you *not* know your kid is building bombs in the garage for criminey's sake?

And I'm glad you see my point. I can't control what I hear around me out here in the brick-and-mortar world, but this little piece of the virtual world is mine, and since I have godlike powers here, I decided to do my part to try to convince people to drop the damn labeling and grouping of people, and to see each person on their own merits, not by where they live, what they do, their race, creed, sexual preference, schooling, etc.

Each person is his own responsibility. Imagine if each of us stopped blaming *others* for our troubles, and took care of what *we* could handle!

I don't know much about central Ohio, I just pass through on my way to Michigan every year. Do these folks come up to you and say 'Hi, I'm a Central Ohio Yuppie'? Thats what I'm saying. Even while saying you agree that labeling is bad, people still do it........

Angus, we do share some of the same views. Personal responsibility is, to me, the highest of our imperatives, yet hardly anyone does it!!!

Welcome to America, list of groups to blame for your woes on the right, NEXT. A friend of mine used to say whenever someone bitched about posts they saw in our newsgroup: 'Manage your own damn usenet. Twinkies on the right'. I have the t-shirt for that.

Vicky - who feels it may be hopeless to try to make people see each others as individuals, not labels, but I'm stubborn, and can at least deal with it *here*.....

DeltOgre
08-25-2006, 01:25 PM
"I can't control what I hear around me out here in the brick-and-mortar world, but this little piece of the virtual world is mine, and since I have godlike powers here, I decided to do my part to try to convince people to drop the damn labeling and grouping of people, and to see each person on their own merits, not by where they live, what they do, their race, creed, sexual preference, schooling, etc."

You've done just that, with at least one person... I honestly find myself more and more irritated with "the population in general" with each passing day, and I've let it reflect on my own ability to communicate. You've brought up an important point, and I am SERIOUSLY taking it to heart, both here, and in my everyday life. So, thank you.

'Nuff said, I hope!

And if you ever find yourself stuck in Cow-Lumbers for any reason, drop me a line, and I'll show you what I'm talking about! I need to move back out to the countryside... This city-living is KILLING ME.

Peace and love,
Ogre

Teren The Valkyrie
08-25-2006, 01:30 PM
:(

I wasnt trying to insult anyone either.. That was not my intent at all.

Teren

DeltOgre
08-25-2006, 02:10 PM
I don't think anyone ever REALLY means to insult one another... If you do, then you are a serious asshole. I certainly didn't mistake you for that, Teren. Besides, your hubby seems like a good and decent feller, and by association, I figured you were, too. Not a "feller," so much as "good and decent..."

I am seriously upset with myself for labeling and misusing my words! (And I'm not just saying that for Vicky's sake...or to kiss anyone's ass around here.) I guess that in our hurry up and rush world, it just gets "easier" to group and label rather than actually make a point about the action itself... Fortunately, I came back to this thread in time to learn that lesson.

WRATHWILDE
08-25-2006, 03:10 PM
I mean, how can you *not* know your kid is building bombs in the garage for criminey's sake?


Actually quite easy... as most parents are quite ignorant of the many common household chemicals that can be used to make explosives, so even if the kids truthfully described what they were doing (process they were following), and the chemicals they were using (common household cleaners), without ever mentioning what the desired end result would be (explosives), it's quite conceivable the parents would have no idea and the kids could pass it off as a science experiment. Kids are very good at deceiving their parents, I know I was.

My brother got in trouble for most everything I instigated. It wasn't until well after my 21st birthday that my mother learned the truth. I WAS the perfect child in her eyes, but only because she was never able to catch me in the act, and I was often able to frame my younger brother, who she always considered the trouble maker.

The summer before I started 1st grade I punched a would be 2nd grader in the mouth knocking out his tooth. The kid was an idiot, but always kept trying to hang out with me (my dad built the coolest "tree house" in our back yard) I tried to get him to leave numerous times that day. I even said I was going inside and it was time for him to leave, I went inside for a while and when I came out he appeared again. I told him to leave several more times, he wouldn't go, I finally said if you don't leave I'm going to hit you. He didn't leave, I warned him again I was going to hit him if he didn't leave, he didn't so I punched him in the mouth, knocking out his tooth.

I went inside and told my mom what I'd done. She said I had to go over to his house and apologize, I refused... saying that I'd told him to leave several times, and warned him twice that I would hit him if he didn't. He didn't leave so I hit him. Fully justified in my view... back to my dads "say what you mean... and mean what you say" teachings. Mom was insistent. This kid lived two doors down and their porch was viewable from our. Same side of the street, so although you could see the porch from ours you couldn't see from our door to their door. I walked right over there, under the watchful gaze of my mother... who was observing me from our porch, walked right up to the door and pretended to forcibly knock on the door. I could see my mother clear as day, and she could see me. After a few seconds I pretended to knock again. Pause another few seconds and I stepped back from the door just a little bit as if someone had just answered it. I pretended to apologize (mouth moving, hand gestures for about 30 seconds) waved goodbye and walked back home... Without ever having actually apologized. My mom, for years, told me how proud she was of how I handled myself in that instance. She sincerely believed I had gone over there and apologized, she was convinced she had seen me do it.

Me, I had principles even then. I told him I was going to hit him if he didn't leave (I did), and I told my mom that I refused to apologize (never did). Parents are good at believing what they want to believe, and (some) kids are very good at exploiting it.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

Angus
08-25-2006, 03:51 PM
Wait a minute. God like powers?

Powerball is up to $64 million. I pray to the god of GotMead to bless me with the winning numbers. ;)


and (some) kids are very good at exploiting it.

Exactly. Children are the masters of manipulation from birth. It is up to the parent to control that child and teach them, nurture them to be a responsible and good person.

Angus

Oskaar
08-25-2006, 04:05 PM
Wrath,

I agree with Angus about the parent being on top of their kids.

What Vicky is saying, pure and simple is that if a parent doesn't have a good grip on what's going on with their kid, they need to get a better grip on what he/she/it/whatever is involved in.

Honestly, you can pick apart a specific example of an argument just like anyone else, but, that doesn't in any way, shape or form change the fact that parents who aren't actively involved in their kids activities are risking their kids and others' well-being. Bad parenting is on the rise, we see it everywhere we go manifested in children with poor manners, attitude and general contempt for authority of any kind. We see parents letting their kids run rampant in malls, restaurants, parties and everywhere else.

To me, the bottom line is if your Mother wanted to ensure that you made an apology, she would have marched you over there like my parents did whenever I got caught knee deep in some kind of hijinks (which wasn't very often, you weren't the only prodigy at instigating and being gone before the sh!t hit the fan).

I had principals as well, but when they ran counter to what my parents' view on principals were, there was hell to pay. My parents were like the friggin FBI when it came to my activities. They knew who, where, when, how and why anything I was doing was going on. Obviously they can't be everywhere at once and I had plenty of opportunities to act out and misbehave. However, that was largely mitigated by the fact that my parents were in face of the other parents asking about anything us kids were going to do at another kids house. So now, the host parents were watching us like hawks as well.

Visibility breeds accountability. My parents knew I was a good kid, with good values, but they also knew I was a kid with a really active imagination and a college reading level in grammar school. So they stepped up their parenting to manage me in what I was doing and when I was doing it. There were instances where we came to a draw in a contest of wills, but I'll never truely be able to say that I was ahead in any of the ongoing tallies.

My parents were very good at finding all the other parents in the neighborhood with similar parenting styles, and organizing them to watch for any little marauding packs of kids with me or the other kids in it. They were proactive in making sure that I knew they and the other parents were watching as well. It didn't stop me from trying, but when things didn't go my way, they didn't let up on the discipline. When I had an apology to make, they were right there behind me making sure I made it because they knew I'd do the exact same thing you did if they weren't.

Trust me, my parents and us kids are no poster children for Modern Family, but they got the job done and made sure we all knew as kids that they were watching us, and that there would be consequences that would be carried out if we didn't tow the line.

Cheers,

Oskaar

webmaster
08-25-2006, 05:15 PM
Actually quite easy... as most parents are quite ignorant of the many common household chemicals that can be used to make explosives, so even if the kids truthfully described what they were doing (process they were following), and the chemicals they were using (common household cleaners), without ever mentioning what the desired end result would be (explosives), it's quite conceivable the parents would have no idea and the kids could pass it off as a science experiment. Kids are very good at deceiving their parents, I know I was.


Err, Wrath, you don't have kids, do you? 'Cause dude, I see my kid every day all day, and when her behavior changes, I'm all over it. You don't look for *bombs*, you look for changes in the *kid*. And if my kid started wearing black, acting sullen and disrespectful, and hanging out with hoodlums, I'd search the house and outbuildings from top to bottom, and sure as *hell* would find the bomb/automatic weapons, or whatever. Those kids in Columbine would never have gotten away with what they did, if their parents had been paying attention. And frankly, I think that the parents should be held responsible along with the kids, and get the same penalties.

To me, good parents know what their kids are doing, where they're going, and how they're feeling. My daughter tells me whats going on in her life because I listen and don't judge. I don't randomly punish, and I support her in her activities, so long as they're 'by the book'.

Vicky - I'd *know*

webmaster
08-25-2006, 05:42 PM
Hi Teren. Sorry dear, you got caught up in one of my Hot Button rants. Let me start over:

Welcome to Gotmead! We're glad to have you here. The FAQ is here (http://www.gotmead.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,103/topic,4334.0).
Explore, ask questions, voice opinions, I'm into free speech, just strong-minded about labeling.

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and you're most welcome!

Johnnybladers
08-25-2006, 09:06 PM
Hi,
Vicky, "wearing black" hardly denotes much of anything(nor does unnatural hair color or style, tattoos or piercings). Seems a bit of grouping ;D Sorry, but I just couldn't help doing a little teasing since we're all getting along again >:D. I also realize you said CHANGES in behavior/style.
On a slighty more serious note, also highlighting the near uselessness of labels, your description of your views is very nearly a mirror of my own views yet I would label myself as moderately conservative, not liberal. Things that make ya go "Hmmmm".
Jon

webmaster
08-25-2006, 09:13 PM
Um, Jonny, with my kid, it would. It's not labeling at all, it's knowing my daughter. She hates black clothes, and doesn't have any. For her, that would indicate a pretty radical change, as would unnatural hair color. She doesn't wear jewelry, has no piercings or tattoos and doesn't want any, doesn't color her hair, or wear 'odd' clothes (that being what is different from what all the other kids wear). So, yes, in this case, it means a *lot*. I'd react just as strongly if she suddenly started dressing in all frilly clothes and telling me she's no longer interested in shooting with us. My kid is a major outdoor/tomboy type.

And I don't label myself as conservative or liberal. I am a seeker of truth, and there seems damn little of *that* in either camp from what I've been told by politics, media or people.

Oh, and just FYI, I like black clothes (always have, even before it was 'goth'), have unnatural hair, and both tattoos and piercings, so I'd be the last one to label that way. I get tagged as 'weird' by most every group of friends I have.

My civil war skirmish team and the other teams think I'm a weird hippie chick who dresses funny, my SCA and Ren Faire friends think its odd that I can stand to hang out with the *very* 'traditional' civil war skirmishing group (mostly, there are some who are not, but most are fairly big on religion, kids, guns, and down on alternative lifestyles and 'weird' stuff (as they define it, not me) - at least in the group I hang with). My work friends think *both* groups are weird, and my family friends just think *I'm* weird. My daughters' parents *know* I'm weird, and her friends think I'm some strange hippie throwback, but usually dub me 'cool' (that will end soon, now that they're all teenagers, I'm sure).

So, labeling is one of the last things I do, since I get it on me pretty much every day.

WRATHWILDE
08-26-2006, 01:53 AM
I did luck out as a kid, my parents were divorced by the time I was in 2nd grade... So mostly single working parent upbringing. My dad tended to move every two years, so no long term relationship with other parents to interfere, and other parents loved me... hehe, their kids seemed to get in much less trouble when I was around. Granted most of my friends were bigger troublemakers than myself, but only because they weren't thinking ahead, something I always did. There's a difference between kids who are impulsive and kids who are methodical, I fell into the later category... I kept a lot of friends from making stupid impulsive mistakes, and got them to put a little thought and planning into it instead. That's not saying I stopped them from doing what they were going to do, just telling them how to minimize the risks of whatever they were going to do. I always stayed away from the high risk adventures, where I felt the chances of getting caught were too great, and I was usually right, with those they usually got caught.
Regardless of my personal mood or feelings, my interactions with people are always friendly, even if I want to rip your throat out, you'll always get simple courtesy and respect, regardless, up until the point YOU hit me, then I don't talk much.
All kids are different, and I'll agree they seem to be a self centered disrespectful lot at the moment, but there are those of us who can, and did, fly under the radar. If I were your kid Vicky, and you were looking for behavior changes, you wouldn't have found anything to tip you off. Outwardly I was the polite respectful young republican who got good grades, always told the truth (it was a game I was very good at, I just left out the more unpleasant truths) and was never rude or disrespectful. Of course being a young republican in your household would have raised the alarm, but it has taken my dad this long to admit that maybe "W" isn't God v2.0.

When my brother and I were young, he used to get in trouble because he'd lie about what happened... I would tell the absolute truth, only I'd swap my name for his... he'd get sent to his room, spanked or whatever the punishment of the day was and I'd be out playing with my friends. >:D

Wrathwilde (Who was a big believer in the truth, or a variation of it, shall set you free.)

Oskaar
08-26-2006, 09:10 PM
Wrath,

I gotta tell you that you'd have been screwed, blued and tattooed in our neighborhood. Like I said, my family isn't going to make the cover of Modern Family, but my parents and other parents that I know are keenly aware of what their kids are doing. Especially when they are "not" doing something. Every kid thinks they are smarter than their parents and can fool them. Trust me, I'm a consumate actor and manipulator, but my parents knew that. Hell, where do you think I learned it from? So as great an actor as I thought I was, they were still on to me 99.9% of the time. Like I said, there were things I got away with, but I don't know of any kids (myself included) that got away with everything unless it was the parents' choice to let them.

Basically in my experience it comes down to the parents seeing what is going on and deciding to let the kid think they're getting away with something. Most of the time it's harmless kid stuff like playing tap-tap, knick-knock, rope-a-dope or sumsuch. But when it has the potential for anything more than good natured harmless fun, they jump in and stop it. Like I said, I think in every kid's mind they are geniuses up against parents who are very smart but no match for their sneakiness, manipulation and acting. From my experience and observation of friends with kids, the parents have been the ones who are watching with feigned surprise and more than just a little amusement.

Cheers,

Oskaar

JayH
08-26-2006, 11:08 PM
I always knew that my mom knew about lots that I did, but I still thought I got a way with a lot. That is until the wedding of my best friend. We were inseparable from 5th grade when I moved to Alamogordo through college. Well here we were at dinner talking about all the stuff we had done as kids and laughing about it. That is until we realized that both of our momís were listening.

It was then they started telling us about all of the things that we thought we had gotten away with, they knew it all. When I asked my mom why she let us get away do it, she said every kid has to think that they have secret from their parents, so as long as were werenít hurting anyone we got keep them.

She was a wise woman knowing what to stop and what to overlook.


Cheers
Jay

WRATHWILDE
08-27-2006, 12:36 AM
I gotta tell you that you'd have been screwed, blued and tattooed in our neighborhood.

Could be, I just am saying that my parents were all for discipline, knowing where I was, and with who... but I learned very quick the process by which they used to trap or check up on me and was very careful to never put my self in the position that they could find out more than I wanted them to know. The fact that my brother never got away with anything had a lot to do with the fact that he couldn't regulate his emotions, and was prone to openly rebel... which doesn't instill a parent with trust. And I was very big on keeping and building my parents trust, and the trust of every parent, teacher or other authority I dealt with.
My Step Dad was a District Attorney, prosecuting, and a Police Officer in Southern California for 15 years previous to that. Before he and my mom divorced he searched the entire house, with police escort, for certain things, jewelry he'd given my mom, when it came time to search my room (where the jewelry was stashed by the way) he asked me point blank if I was concealing anything of his in my room. Back story - I hated him at that point (he had sent my mom shopping in the next town... drained their bank accounts and canceled all their credit cards, including gas cards, while she was out.) then filed for divorce leaving her with nothing. To say I hated him at that point would have been understatement of the year, I wanted to kill him, but I treated him exactly the same as any other time in our relationship. I looked him in the eye and said "No." with no more emotion or concern than if he'd asked me if I wanted a piece of toast. He said "You I trust." left my room alone but tore through the rest of the house. That was my gift - cultivating trust, and it goes a long way.
Oh, and the other codes I lived by were never, ever, rat on your friends (disliked my brother while growing up so that wasn't a breech). Never admit to anything in front of an authority figure (or anybody else actually) even if they seem to be 100% behind or in favor the situation.

Listen, observe, say as little as possible, make sure you only speak the truth, offer it up freely and cheerfully, and let the conversation meander to other areas without ever seeming to have changed the subject. You know as the conversation progresses pick up on more or less innocent threads, throw in some humor, thoughts and observations along those lines and pretty soon you've nudged the conversation into an honest dialog on an innocent subject. It's hard to be accused of changing the subject when it started and progressed along topic lines they initiated, even if it wasn't the one's they intended to discuss. The trick is to prod the common ground and values you both share or respect until they are left with the impression that you are a bright, honest, level headed young adult that they'd be proud to call their own.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

Oskaar
08-27-2006, 02:47 AM
Dude,

Sorry you had to go through that!

My Dad was one of those "Old Country" strict kind of guys. Former Navy Petty Officer, Shore Patrol, tough as a coffin nail and meaner than a wounded wolverine. ALL of the rest of the Dads on the block gave him a wide berth, except one other guy who wasn't at all imposing, just a very frank and honest kind of guy. My dad actually liked him and our families hung out together. My dad could see that honesty in people intuitively. I'm the same way. I can pretty much spot an a$$hole a mile away before I see their face or hear their voice.

Don't know if you've ever been to Croatia or any other of the Eastern Block Countries, but when they take your passport they have this way of staring right through you when they are asking you questions before sending you through the border checkpoint. You just know in your mind that they know every answer before they ask the question. My dad must have taught them how to do that look, so I learned from an early age to control my breathing, body language, eye movement, what I was thinking and how it affected my facial expressions.

I use that look now on my nieces and nephews. They crack me up when I hear them whispering "He knows" LOL

Cheers,

Oskaar

WRATHWILDE
08-27-2006, 03:21 AM
I use that look now on my nieces and nephews. They crack me up when I hear them whispering "He knows" LOL


Ah yes, I know that look well, which is why you never betray yourself. I realized early on that what they think they know, or even just strongly suspect, is irrelevant. It all comes down to what they can prove, or more often than not... what they can get you to admit to after they've supposedly discovered your guilt. More often than not it's a bluff on their part to get you to crack... banking on your hopes of a lighter sentence/forgiveness if you confess your guilt and tearfully express how truly sorry you are. The flip side is that they will come at you full of pride and esteem about how clever the whole thing was and let your ego trap you when bask in their admiration. Either way they relied on you to supply the information to confirm your guilt, and I wouldn't be baited.

Wrathwilde

Oskaar
08-27-2006, 05:03 AM
...Either way they relied on you to supply the information to confirm your guilt, and I wouldn't be baited.

Wrathwilde


LOL, that only works if you're the only one involved, and if anyone else who's questioned has the same force of will as you do. There was a whole pack of us runnning around. Invariably someone would squeal or slip up and the deal was done.

If you're carrying off something alone with no partners and no witnesses, then that's one thing, but when you have other "associates" who can be sweated all bets are off. I had so many cousins and family members around that it just wasn't possible to carry off much without other family/friends being involved. That was part of our parents' fiendish plan too. There's always a squealer in every crowd. We learned to compensate for that after a while with diversionary tactics and mis-information, but that only goes so far.

Cheers,

Oskaar

WRATHWILDE
08-27-2006, 08:56 AM
LOL, that only works if you're the only one involved

Better still is doing things in such a way that they never know they've ever been done. Which was originally my whole point, you carry things out in such a manner that you and your friends cannot possibly be caught in the act. All your behaviors and patterns at home or at your friends homes are proper and respectful.
As a teen I'd never do anything in front of my friends parents that I wouldn't do in front of my own... even if their parents allowed it, there was never the slightest possibility that I'd get a negative comment from any house I visited. Even when my family went in for family counseling, the Psychiatrist, after initial separate interviews of each family member, told my parents I was the most well adjusted kid they had EVER seen and that I didn't need to come back. The rest of the Family went twice a month for about a year.
Not putting yourself or your friends in a position to be caught was the main thing, in my eyes it was priority #1. When there are no witnesses, only coconspirators, and none of the activity took place at any of our homes, there is nothing for any of them to suspect. The fact that we were constantly out riding our bicycles all over San Diego made it easy to stay out of our parents supervision.
There were numerous places and dirt tracks we frequently rode including around the mission bay park area, and we often cycled through them, if we were out doing something and our parents couldn't find us, saying that we were just biking around usually worked. If they asked any of us where... we could name them off and since when we did ride it was usually in an order of preference, if they asked any of us they would get the same pattern of places we'd been, in the order we'd been there, leaving out where and what we were doing in between and no definite times we'd been at any one place. We always made sure we were back when we said we would be, or at least very close to it. Don't push it and don't give them any reason to try and reign you in. >:D

Wrathwilde

Muirghein Tarot
08-27-2006, 09:33 AM
My civil war skirmish team and the other teams think I'm a weird hippie chick who dresses funny, my SCA and Ren Faire friends think its odd that I can stand to hang out with the *very* 'traditional' civil war skirmishing group (mostly, there are some who are not, but most are fairly big on religion, kids, guns, and down on alternative lifestyles and 'weird' stuff (as they define it, not me) - at least in the group I hang with). My work friends think *both* groups are weird, and my family friends just think *I'm* weird. My daughters' parents *know* I'm weird, and her friends think I'm some strange hippie throwback, but usually dub me 'cool' (that will end soon, now that they're all teenagers, I'm sure).



Vicky. With that many people in agreement it might be time to face the facts. Your weird. But we love you because your weird.......,and because of those god like powers! ;D

Runs...ducks....hides under carboys for fear of smiting.

;D ;D ;D
Tarot.

PS welcome to the club. I've been a card carrying member of weird in America for most of my life.

Oskaar
08-27-2006, 10:11 AM
...Not putting yourself or your friends in a position to be caught was the main thing, in my eyes it was priority #1...

Wrathwilde


Where I was brought up, that just wasn't going to happen. Too many friends and relatives all over the town and in the surrounding communities. Also,the family businesses meant a lot of contact with other people who would see us wherever we were and knew who we were with so there was a build in limiting factor. Plus, as soon as they saw us someone would call one of the moms at home and let her know where we were and what we were doing. That was then phoned to the other moms as well. We had places to be at time certain during the day like most kids in our area, and one of the mothers was always around to check up on us. This is pretty standard practice in many Eastern European ethnic communities which is probably the difference between your childhood hijinks and mine.

What you and your friends did was nothing unusual for us either. We just had a greater number of more observant parents who knew that no matter how good a kid acts, their precocious nature can motivate them to do things they shouldn't be doing. They NEVER just took our word on it, and they used all of their resources to keep an eye on us. As mentioned there were times that we were able to get away with things. But most of the time not. No matter how well you plan something out and execute it, there are still factors that you cannot control.

Also, size of the group matters. We were running around with at least 12-15 kids, sometimes more all the time. Not because we had to, or needed safety in numbers, but because we had a great time together and wanted to hang out. So size was a serious mitigating factor in stealthy activities as well. Sometimes it was plus, sometimes it wasn't. Bottom line, organized parents with an agenda vs organized kids with an agenda wasn't much of a contest. Especially considering that there weren't any single, overworked, mothers in our crowd. They were just about all stay at home moms who's job it was to watch us like a hawk and boy did they ever.

Cheers,

Oskaar

WRATHWILDE
08-27-2006, 04:32 PM
Usually it was 3 to 5 of us, and it was a pretty rough area of San Diego at the time, at lot of Motorcycle Gangs and Drug dealing going on in Ocean Beach when I was there. So a lot could go on relatively unnoticed. The Hells Angles always treated us kids very well.

Wrathwilde

Oskaar
08-27-2006, 06:28 PM
You were lucky!

We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down at the mill, fourteen hours a day, week in, week out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home, our dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt. :o

Cheers,

Oskaar

Johnnybladers
08-27-2006, 06:58 PM
At least you didn't have to walk 10 miles to school uphill both ways through snow as deep as the telephone poles in the middle of a July heat wave. Wait a minute, that's one of my dad's stories.
Jon

DeltOgre
08-27-2006, 08:45 PM
I once had to kill a polar bear with my Trapper Keeper. It had The A-Team on it.