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How to stabilize

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matt burks

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Jul 11, 2007
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I'm planning on bottling a Pyment and a Strawberry Wine tonight. These are my first two batches of wines/meads so I've never had to "stabilize" anything before (beer guy).

I have Potassium Metabisulfite (1lb bag) and a bottle of Campden tablets (Sodium Metabisulfite). These can be used to stabilize, correct? Which would be better? I've read some people using half of one and half of the other...

What's the proper way to stabilize?
 

wayneb

Lifetime Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Stay with the potassium meta. Sodium is first not as healthy for you, and second, can impart a "salty" taste that is more prominent than what you get from the potassium.

What you may have heard is people using a combination of Potassium metabisulfate and Potassium sorbate. The K-META kills most yeast cells outright, along with other potentially harmful microbes, and the sorbate will prevent any yeast that may have survived the META treatment from reproducing, so if you are planning to stabilize a product with residual sugar in it, the one-two punch of META followed by sorbate is recommended. If what you're bottling is dry, a simple META treatment will be enough to minimize the chances of any wild nasties from taking root in your brew. Yes, there are things that can grow in typical wine alcohol levels, and they include some strains of malolactic bacteria. Unless you are looking for MLF, you don't want it to start spontaneously.
 

matt burks

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Ok, I was planning on stabilizing these and then back sweetening them. The strawberry wine will have 6oz of sugar added and the Pyment will have 6oz of honey and 6oz of Welch's Grape Juice added (Joe's Grape Mead).

So should I hold off on bottling until I can get some Potassium Sorbate?

Thanks!
 

wayneb

Lifetime Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Well, here is what I do:

1) Rack off of any visible lees;
2) Add Potassium Metabisulfite, wait several days, then add sorbate;
2) Backsweeten and wait for the result to clear (both honey and juice concentrates will suspend in the mead, taking a while to settle out);
5) Rack to a bottling bucket, and then bottle.

You want to wait several days for the metabisulfite to work before adding sorbate. The sulfites will kill any malolactic bacteria present. If you add sorbate to an active malolactic culture, it will get turned into a "geranium smelling" ester that will never age out.
 

Rhianni

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Nov 13, 2006
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matt burks said:
I have Potassium Metabisulfite (1lb bag) and a bottle of Campden tablets (Sodium Metabisulfite). These can be used to stabilize, correct? Which would be better?

They are the same stuff. 1 campden = 1/8th tsp potassium meta. The tablet is just in an easy to use form
 

wayneb

Lifetime Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Rhianni said:
matt burks said:
I have Potassium Metabisulfite (1lb bag) and a bottle of Campden tablets (Sodium Metabisulfite). These can be used to stabilize, correct? Which would be better?

They are the same stuff. 1 campden = 1/8th tsp potassium meta. The tablet is just in an easy to use form

There is sometimes some confusion about potassium metabisulfite & sodium metabisulfite vs campden tablets. It is important to know that campdens are made out of EITHER sodium or potassium META. So, when you're at your LHBS looking at campden tablets, make sure that you find out if you're getting sodium or potassium.
 

Oskaar

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Dec 26, 2004
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Ok one very slight difference in technique that I use. I'd recommend not waiting more than 48 hours after you have hit your must with the K Meta to add the K Sorbate. Reason is your free SO2 will fade after the initial dosage and will lose it's effectiveness as an antimicrobial and antioxidant as time passes. A couple of days is not a dealbreaker, but, the pH of the mead is an important factor. I've gone into this in another post on the general forums.

My suggestion is based on mead not being a static animal, it is constantly evolving and there are shifting levels of acid, sugar, alcohol and other factors that will influence the efficacy of your sulfite and sorbate. pH is the heaviest deciding factor, and as Wayne mentioned if you get the dreaded Geranium smell then you're done. The bacteria reduce sorbic acid to sorbic alcohol, which in the presence of low alcohol and low pH, gives a rearrangement to 2-ethoxyhexa-3,5-diene the latter having a geranium-like aroma (Crowell and Guymon 1975)

However, if you are diligent about blanketing your vessel with CO2, Nitrogen or Argon you'll be fine. Lactobacillus are Gram+, microaerophilic bacteria (the love small amounts of oxygen) they can be everything from rods all the way to coccobacilli. They need oxygen in order to work their magic to a point of where you'll pick it up in sensory analysis.

Lactobacillus, along with Oenococcus and Pediococcus, are classified as Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). Another strike against LAB are that they have complex nutritional requirements. In addition to carbohydrates, they require amino acids, nucleic acids, vitamins and fatty acids. They also metabolize hexose. Lactobacillus are generally catorigized as homofermenters, and heterofermenters. Homofermentive lactobacilli will convert glucose to lactic acid without the production of CO2. Heterofermentive lactobacilli are more vigorous and will metabolize hexoses into a "heterogeneous" amount of compounds, like lactic acid, CO2, ethanol and acetate. The occurrence of Lactobacillus in wine is highly pH- and ethanol-dependent. In high-pH wines greater than 3.5, Lactobacillus will dominate, but at lower pH values, Oenococcus oeni will dominate like a cheap Hollywood dominatrix (for those of you who's eyes were rolling back in your heads by this point, see, I know I run-off sometimes). Variances in ethanol tolerance among Lactobacillus species is common. For example, L. plantarum ceases growth at 5 to 6 percent ethanol, whereas L. casei and L. brevis are very alcohol-tolerant, and are the ones used to induce malolactic fermentation (MLF).

OK this also goes for Acetobacter sp. If I remember right I've posted on that a couple years back as well. Keep your pH down, your O2 down and you won't have problems.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 

sandman

Premium Patron
Premium Patron
Feb 5, 2007
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Hartford, Huntingdon, United Kingdom
Eeexceelleeeent... My current meads are starting to approach the point where I'll be needing to stabilize and bottle as well so this topic came at a great time. It also saved me the trouble of asking about time between treatments myself. You've just gotta love this site. :toothy10:
:cheers:
 

matt burks

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 11, 2007
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homebrewing.mattburks.com
Oskaar said:
Ok one very slight difference in technique that I use. I'd recommend not waiting more than 48 hours after you have hit your must with the K Meta to add the K Sorbate. Reason is your free SO2 will fade after the initial dosage and will lose it's effectiveness as an antimicrobial and antioxidant as time passes. A couple of days is not a dealbreaker, but, the pH of the mead is an important factor. I've gone into this in another post on the general forums.

My suggestion is based on mead not being a static animal, it is constantly evolving and there are shifting levels of acid, sugar, alcohol and other factors that will influence the efficacy of your sulfite and sorbate. pH is the heaviest deciding factor, and as Wayne mentioned if you get the dreaded Geranium smell then you're done. The bacteria reduce sorbic acid to sorbic alcohol, which in the presence of low alcohol and low pH, gives a rearrangement to 2-ethoxyhexa-3,5-diene the latter having a geranium-like aroma (Crowell and Guymon 1975)

However, if you are diligent about blanketing your vessel with CO2, Nitrogen or Argon you'll be fine. Lactobacillus are Gram+, microaerophilic bacteria (the love small amounts of oxygen) they can be everything from rods all the way to coccobacilli. They need oxygen in order to work their magic to a point of where you'll pick it up in sensory analysis.

Lactobacillus, along with Oenococcus and Pediococcus, are classified as Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). Another strike against LAB are that they have complex nutritional requirements. In addition to carbohydrates, they require amino acids, nucleic acids, vitamins and fatty acids. They also metabolize hexose. Lactobacillus are generally catorigized as homofermenters, and heterofermenters. Homofermentive lactobacilli will convert glucose to lactic acid without the production of CO2. Heterofermentive lactobacilli are more vigorous and will metabolize hexoses into a "heterogeneous" amount of compounds, like lactic acid, CO2, ethanol and acetate. The occurrence of Lactobacillus in wine is highly pH- and ethanol-dependent. In high-pH wines greater than 3.5, Lactobacillus will dominate, but at lower pH values, Oenococcus oeni will dominate like a cheap Hollywood dominatrix (for those of you who's eyes were rolling back in your heads by this point, see, I know I run-off sometimes). Variances in ethanol tolerance among Lactobacillus species is common. For example, L. plantarum ceases growth at 5 to 6 percent ethanol, whereas L. casei and L. brevis are very alcohol-tolerant, and are the ones used to induce malolactic fermentation (MLF).

OK this also goes for Acetobacter sp. If I remember right I've posted on that a couple years back as well. Keep your pH down, your O2 down and you won't have problems.

Cheers,

Oskaar


:eek: :eek: :eek: :tard: :tard: :cheers:

SWEET GOOGLY MOOGLY!!

Wow! Ask and you shall receive. Great info there. Thanks a million!
 

Rhianni

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Nov 13, 2006
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wayneb said:
Rhianni said:
matt burks said:
I have Potassium Metabisulfite (1lb bag) and a bottle of Campden tablets (Sodium Metabisulfite). These can be used to stabilize, correct? Which would be better?

They are the same stuff. 1 campden = 1/8th tsp potassium meta. The tablet is just in an easy to use form

There is sometimes some confusion about potassium metabisulfite & sodium metabisulfite vs campden tablets. It is important to know that campdens are made out of EITHER sodium or potassium META. So, when you're at your LHBS looking at campden tablets, make sure that you find out if you're getting sodium or potassium.

My apologies Matt :sad1: I didnt know about the sodium campden tablets and read right over that in your post. I guess that answers my question of "why is he asking about sodium meta" Thanks for the info wayneb
 

Johnnybladers

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Feb 13, 2006
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Not to hijack, but do most of the meadmakers chemically stabilize? Thus far I've only used K-meta to sanitize fruit based musts but not after fermentation to stabilize.
 

zionpsyfer

Got Mead? Patron
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May 17, 2007
58
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Denver
I do, for now. I am very stringent with my sanitation, but I still have this thing where a liquid has been sitting at room temperature for months. I've moved it from container to container where it has been exposed to possible contamination each time it has been moved.


Nothing to do with actual risks, and it's all in my head. But it gives me a little comfort knowing that it's been treated. I also don't have to worry about restarted fermentations, so no bottle bombs. Of course I have to notify anyone trying it that it contains sulfites.
 

wayneb

Lifetime Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
In the olde days (as in prior to 10 years ago) I used to bottle all my meads without any stabilization - I used sulfites only for equipment sanitation. I had my share of bottle bombs (all blown corks, thankfully) and infected, yucky bottles, but I also had far more successes than failures. Today, now that I know more about how stabilization works, I sulfite all my meads before bottling, and I'll additionally sorbate the sweet ones. Since changing my approach I've had no failures. The antioxidant properties of sulfite will also help meads to keep longer, although mine don't typically last long enough to where it matters! :drunken_smilie:
 

Medsen Fey

Fuselier since 2007
Premium Patron
Johnnybladers said:
Not to hijack, but do most of the meadmakers chemically stabilize? Thus far I've only used K-meta to sanitize fruit based musts but not after fermentation to stabilize.

There are some who use very fine filtration instead of chemicals. If you do a forum search on filtration you can get much more information on the subject. I have not yet tried filtration, but plan to test it on a batch in the works.

Using sulfites may have advantages other than just stopping yeast including antioxidant and preservative properties, and sulfites can be used in conjunction with filtration to provide these benefits.

Medsen
 

ucflumberjack

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the LHBS carries what they have listed as "Potassium Metabisulfate", and "Potassium Sorbate", im sure it must be the same as "Potassium Metabisulfite", they just mistyped it?
 

Oskaar

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Dec 26, 2004
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K-Metabisulfite and K-Sorbate are two different animals. K-Meta is an anti-oxidant, anti-microbial, color stabilizer and freshness preservative. K-Sorbate is used in conjunction with K-Meta to prevent re-fermentation. K-Sorbate (sorbic acid) is a well known and popular stabilizer with home mead, beer and wine makers.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 

JayH

Worker Bee
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May 9, 2006
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I've never heard of sulfates being used (as apposed to sulfites) so I would assume that it is mislabeled. On the other hand one LHBS I know of orders their chemicals form a chemical supplier (evidently much cheaper) then from a stand brew type supplier. If this is the case it could be either one, so I would definitely double check.


Cheers
Jay
 

matt burks

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Jul 11, 2007
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Alright, my K-Meta is in a 1lb pack and is in powder form. It says to kill wild yeast add 1/4tsp to 5 gallons of must. If I'm only doing 1 gallon batches do I need to worry about getting only 1/5 of the 1/4tsp in there or can I just put a close, visual estimate and it not effect the mead?
 

liff

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Jun 10, 2006
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It is possible to over sulfite a beverage. There have been a few posts I have read about people over doing it and actually being able to taste it.

I would go about this in a goofy way. The eye can very eaisly discern the difference between 2 different sized objects, and can do a very good job of saying, 'these 2 things are of equal size'.

What I would do is to measure out 1/4 teaspoon (0.25 teaspoons) and divide it equally into 2 equal piles (0.125 tea) with a razor blade, analogus to a different white powder :confused3:. Make these piles the same in circumference and hieght. Then take one of those piles and make 2 more equal piles (0.0625 tea). That is really close to 0.05 teaspoons per gallon, the ratio of 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons. One of those small piles is how much I would add to 1 gallon.
 
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