PDA

View Full Version : Foam vs Krausen



teljkon
12-23-2007, 01:10 AM
In beer this yeast foam is krausen and is often used to start new fermentations. If you ever happen to need a starter of the same yeast for a upcoming batch and a current batch has some of this you can certainly use it as aposed to pitching a new packet of yeast!
:happy10:

Wolfie
12-23-2007, 01:57 AM
I don't think clumps of the yeast cake are the same as krausen. Sounds to me more like a chunk o the spent yeat broke loose.

If not sulfited one could use that for a starter....

Oskaar
12-23-2007, 02:16 AM
Wolfie is correct, this is simply spent yeast that has floated to the surface and has not settled to the bottom as lees. Using it as a starter is very seldomly practiced in mead or winemaking and is not recommended.

Teljkon is referring to the practice of kräusening which is used to carbonate beer, (lager beers mostly). In practice the process is to add freshly fermenting wort to beer that is ready to bottle. Kräusening eliminates the problem of yeast dormancy during lagering. It can help the flavor of your beer by cutting down on acetaldehyde, diacetyl, and also helps to dry out your beer.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar

teljkon
12-23-2007, 04:07 AM
No I was refering to krausen per the artical that ive read in brew your own magazine. Which lays out the common practice of harvesting the early foam on the top of beer to start a new fermentation. I may have spelled it wrong. If you like ill take some time and find out the month of the issue and the name of the artical for you.
:happy10:

Oskaar
12-23-2007, 10:12 AM
I'm aware of the BYO article (http://byo.com/departments/1550.html). Take a read and see if it's not what I'm saying. Or, if there's another article you're referring to I'd be happy to read it.

Oskaar

teljkon
12-24-2007, 04:22 AM
Ill try to take some time out of christmas
:happy10:

teljkon
12-26-2007, 04:29 AM
Ok read the brew project from september 2005, VOL.12, No.5. And read the artical on Fermenting belgian-style Beers from july-august 2006, VOL.12, NO.4.
:happy10:

Oskaar
12-26-2007, 07:37 AM
I'm not finding the articles when I search. Can you provide links please?

Thanks,

Oskaar

Medsen Fey
12-26-2007, 10:17 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Krausen can be a noun or a verb depending on what you are referring to, as shown here (http://beer.about.com/od/glossary/g/krausen.htm). I believe you are both correct.

Medsen

teljkon
12-26-2007, 07:39 PM
Sorry I dont have a link youd have to have the magazine the BYO web site is horibully incomplet they only have about 1/10th of there published articals online.
:happy10:

Oskaar
12-27-2007, 03:50 AM
Medsen, you're correct it can be either.

What I'm saying is that I've never heard of skimming off just the foam (krausen) to innoculate another beer. I don't know that it would work that well. The vigorously fermenting wort is a different story obviously. He specifically stated "foam" and that's what I was referring to. I don't know that the foam would be a very good starter as it is just the product of the fermenting wort containing the yeast below it.

Cheers,

Oskaar

Medsen Fey
12-27-2007, 12:07 PM
I have read that skimming the Krausen from one batch of beer can give yeast to use in inoculating another batch (or creating a starter). You can see it mentioned here (http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-8.html). I believe this same principle was the basis for the Burton Union system in English ale breweries that was able to keep the same yeast strains going for decades.

Medsen

ehanuise
12-27-2007, 03:49 PM
I think they use a similar method for lambiek belgian sour ale.
(I live 3 houses away from the cantillon beer brewery/museum for more than 7 years and have yet to pay them a visit... Whenever I'll do I'll make sure to ask some technical questions ;-) )

Oskaar
12-27-2007, 04:44 PM
Medsen, you're correct it can be either.

What I'm saying is that I've never heard of skimming off just the foam (krausen) to innoculate another beer. I don't know that it would work that well. The vigorously fermenting wort is a different story obviously. He specifically stated "foam" and that's what I was referring to. I don't know that the foam would be a very good starter as it is just the product of the fermenting wort containing the yeast below it.

Cheers,

Oskaar


OK, my fault here. I omitted the NOT in front of Krausen to make it (not krausen) in the parenthesis. My bad. I should have gone into this in my first post as the foam is nothing but protien, hop residue and other stuff. The krausen and wort are another matter.

Cheers,

Oskaar

wildaho
12-27-2007, 06:20 PM
I think they use a similar method for lambiek belgian sour ale.
(I live 3 houses away from the cantillon beer brewery/museum for more than 7 years and have yet to pay them a visit... Whenever I'll do I'll make sure to ask some technical questions ;-) )


3 houses away and you've never been there? Oh! The humanity! I'm seriously jealous. I love their beers!

(Sorry for the threadjack but ...)

ehanuise
12-27-2007, 06:39 PM
I'm just not a fan of the sour thing... more a stout or monk beer myself :tongue1:

teljkon
12-28-2007, 02:12 AM
My understanding is that krausen is basically the foam, and that vigourously fermenting beer has yeast cells in that early foam or krausen. theres a good picture in one of the articals that I mentioned where the foam is very brown and actually looks yeasty. I see no reason that yeast cells could not be caught between protiens in the the foam. Look at a beer that you poor and its very foamy as the foam settels it tends to become more beer. This is my understanding I could be wrong, but its how I inturpreted the articals ive read. As a mater of fact in one artical they published "foam (krausen)". Pointing out the krausen is just activley brewing beer foam.
:happy10:

wildaho
12-28-2007, 04:04 AM
Yes, teljkon. There is inevitably some yeast caught up in the foam but it's a very small proportion. The foam is primarily protein and other crud as has already been mentioned. If you look closely at the Burton Union system that Medsen points to, the foam falls off seperately from the actively top-fermenting yeast. The Burton Union system WAS developed for ales after all.

The practice of krausening (pronounced KROY-ZEN-ING by the way) is also prevalent in the lager world and probably has more adherents there than any where else. Bass made it famous for ales with the Burton Union system but never used the term. The word just sounds too German (which it is) and so, being British, they invented there own term: Burton Union system. They also made it fairly automatic and so it had to have it's own name. A "System", if you will.

There are several makers of pale lagers that used to brag about it as well. Krauzen just seems like a cool word and makes there beer seem to stand out because of it. Think Old Milwaukee for one. Regardless of whether its ale or lager, its the actively fermenting wort that is added to the beer rather than the yucky, scummy foam.

I've saved a couple of beers and meads (both) by adding vigorously fermenting must/wort to stalled ferment. My Orange Harlot belgian golden ale stalled at 1.040 from 1.140. I added some actively fermenting must from my Ginger Meth and dropped another 15 points. I added some Brettanamyces (Lambic yeast cultivated from a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin Oro Del Calabaza) from there and have dropped another 5 points in the last three months, it's gonna take at least a year for the Brett to finish off so I'm confident it will finish around 1.010, maybe 1.005. It will be worth the wait though.

So.

Don't confuse krausen with scummy foam. You need the active yeast, not the crud. Again, you have high jacked a thread without contributing anything to the OP's question. Start your own threads dude.

And back to the OP's subject, don't worry Sandig! Unless it smells bad or starts to taste funny, you are doing great! Mead isn't always pretty during the fermentation process. Just be patient and it will treat you well.

teljkon
12-29-2007, 05:20 AM
You raise a good point and a bad one. Perhaps Oskar will split this post for us so as not to interfer with Sandigs asking for advice. Ill respond to the rest of your post by quoting the link that medsen posted



To do this, you will need to be using a bucket type fermentor and first skim off the green/brown hop and protein compounds with a sanitized spoon early in the primary phase. As the creamy white krausen builds up, you can skim this fresh yeast off with a sanitized spoon and transfer it to a sanitized jar.

If your going to critisize me wild at least take the time to read what ive said.

wildaho
12-29-2007, 04:37 PM
To do this, you will need to be using a bucket type fermentor and first skim off the green/brown hop and protein compounds with a sanitized spoon early in the primary phase. As the creamy white krausen builds up, you can skim this fresh yeast off with a sanitized spoon and transfer it to a sanitized jar.

If your going to critisize me wild at least take the time to read what ive said.

:pottytrain2:


:laughing4:

Ummm....

I DID respond to what you said, not to a sudden quote from Palmer (http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-8.html) or wherever else you pulled up this new info. Regardless, it's too readable to be your own dialog. Where's the cite to the author? Your previous post does not match your latest diatribe.


My understanding is that krausen is basically the foam, and that vigourously fermenting beer has yeast cells in that early foam or krausen. theres a good picture in one of the articals that I mentioned where the foam is very brown and actually looks yeasty. I see no reason that yeast cells could not be caught between protiens in the the foam. Look at a beer that you poor and its very foamy as the foam settels it tends to become more beer. This is my understanding I could be wrong, but its how I inturpreted the articals ive read. As a mater of fact in one artical they published "foam (krausen)". Pointing out the krausen is just activley brewing beer foam.

That was inaccurate and very unclear. I merely clarified the misinformation you provided. Your lack of clarity can be very confusing (at the least) and has even been potentially hazardous (at the worst). History is my guide. I wish I knew how to point to a specific post without a specific quote within a thread 'cuz dude, you have definitely given some bad advice here. Harmfully bad...

And may I respectfully request that the next time you show your intelligence in the form of a smiley to me that you do it in a PM?

:icon_salut:
Thank you,
Wade

teljkon
12-30-2007, 03:20 AM
The quote is from a link in this thread, youve only proven once againe that you havent even taken the time to read the thread befor you spouted off your opinion. Its just that an opinion, the fact is that everthing ive seen about Krausen says it is the foam of a curently ferminting beer. If you cant find some thing that says otherwise ill be happy to look at it, but you wont, and you cant, becuas it is. Im 90% sure the protien that there talking about is the early froth just after boiling. Think for a second, why would it still have hops in it that havent setaled out. I wouldnt want to waste my time harvesting none yeast containing portien either. Secondly I wouldnt tell anyone to do anything I wouldnt do my self, or haven't done my self. The only thing that I can figure from some of you pepole is that my methods that often result in saving money contradict some kinda self intrest.
:pottytrain2:

wildaho
12-30-2007, 04:32 AM
See the PM dude, I'm done with you...

wildaho
12-30-2007, 07:27 AM
teljkon,

Clear out some PM's so you can get some new ones, please? I've devoted an entire novel to your response but you can't see it. And these good folks don't need too...

Oskaar
12-30-2007, 09:42 AM
I've split this thead off the original since we took a big left hand turn after my initial response.

I'm also locking this down until I've had a chance to catch up on this and deal with it accordingly.

Oskaar