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View Full Version : alternative yeasts for Ken Schramm's Fall's Bounty Cyser



crowquill
10-16-2008, 06:39 PM
This weekend, I am hoping to start a batch of "Fall's Bounty Cyser." My plan is to follow the recipe as printed in the book. To that end, my wife stopped by the LHB store to pick up a couple of packets of Lalvin D-47. Image her surprise when the owner said, "We don't carry that anymore. We only have Red Star now." We have bought Lalvin yeasts there in the past but I guess we didn't buy enough of them....

The store owner suggested either Pasteur Champagne or Premier Cuvee as alternatives. I'm still a beginner but neither of those sound like substitutes for D-47 to me.

There is another local store and we'll check there tomorrow. I know online ordering is also an option but if I order online we'll have to wait at least two weeks to start the cyser. This is a special weekend for us and we were hoping to commemorate it by starting this cyser.

We may yet be able to get the D-47 from the other store. And if not, we may decide to hold off on the cyser until we can get the yeast called for in the recipe. But hypothetically:

If I can't get the D-47 and if I insist on starting the cyser this weekend, what's the best Red Star substitute?

I don't think it's appropriate to transcribe Ken's entire recipe here but the ingredients are:


4 gallons pressed apple juice
8 lb. honey (we have local wildflower)
2 tsp. yeast energizer
1 tsp. yeast nutrient
1 lb. dark brown sugar
1/2 lb. chopped dates
1/2 lb. raisins
10 g. Lalvin D-47 rehydrated

wayneb
10-16-2008, 08:14 PM
Well, the closest Red Star substitute is really one that is difficult to manage -- Montrachet. It is finicky, and will throw lots of hydrogen sulfide and off-tasting phenolics if fermented without enough nitrogen or in too warm an environment. The problem is that none of the Red Star strains work like D-47, but if you want one that will not scrub away all your apple aroma and you aren't experienced enough to know that you can manage Montrachet, you can try Cote des Blancs. It is an epernay strain, so it will be more fruity and less sharp than the D-47, but its alcohol tolerance and fermentation kinetics are close to D-47.

Oskaar
10-16-2008, 08:35 PM
I wouldn't use any of the Red Star yeasts except Premier Cuvee for this one.

Personally I've used K1-V1116 in a recipe very similar to this one with excellent results.

Cheers,

Oskaar

sandman
10-16-2008, 09:14 PM
2 weeks??? Dude, where are you ordering from? Dang...

wayneb
10-16-2008, 11:07 PM
Sandman's right -- you should be able to get 2 to 3 day delivery on anything from a number of internet/mail order places.

And the reason that Oskaar suggests the Premier Cuvee is that it and K1V-1116 are both similar bayanus strains of yeast. My problem with the Premier Cuvee is that when I have used it in other fruit wines, I got a fermentation profile more like Lallemand's EC-1118. 1118 can ferment through apple juice so fast that much of the apple aroma and flavor is scrubbed away. Still I admit that I've never done a cider or cyser with Red Star's Premier Cuvee -- if Oskaar says it will work, then I say go for it! ;)

Oskaar
10-17-2008, 12:47 AM
Sandman's right -- you should be able to get 2 to 3 day delivery on anything from a number of internet/mail order places.

And the reason that Oskaar suggests the Premier Cuvee is that it and K1V-1116 are both similar bayanus strains of yeast. My problem with the Premier Cuvee is that when I have used it in other fruit wines, I got a fermentation profile more like Lallemand's EC-1118. 1118 can ferment through apple juice so fast that much of the apple aroma and flavor is scrubbed away. Still I admit that I've never done a cider or cyser with Red Star's Premier Cuvee -- if Oskaar says it will work, then I say go for it! ;)


Premier Cuvee and the EC-1118 are Prise de Mousse strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae bayanus), the PC is a Davis strain though but they are still pretty similar in fermentation kinetics and nitrogen needs.

K1-V1116 is a Montpellier strain (Saccharomyces cerevisiae cerevisiae), used in the Languedoc of Southern France where there is a bit of a revolution going on with winemaking there.

Cheers,

Oskaar

crowquill
10-17-2008, 04:36 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.

The two weeks is due to our time constraints not the delivery of the yeast.

wayneb
10-17-2008, 01:03 PM
Sandman's right -- you should be able to get 2 to 3 day delivery on anything from a number of internet/mail order places.

And the reason that Oskaar suggests the Premier Cuvee is that it and K1V-1116 are both similar bayanus strains of yeast. My problem with the Premier Cuvee is that when I have used it in other fruit wines, I got a fermentation profile more like Lallemand's EC-1118. 1118 can ferment through apple juice so fast that much of the apple aroma and flavor is scrubbed away. Still I admit that I've never done a cider or cyser with Red Star's Premier Cuvee -- if Oskaar says it will work, then I say go for it! ;)


Premier Cuvee and the EC-1118 are Prise de Mousse strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae bayanus), the PC is a Davis strain though but they are still pretty similar in fermentation kinetics and nitrogen needs.

K1-V1116 is a Montpellier strain (Saccharomyces cerevisiae cerevisiae), used in the Languedoc of Southern France where there is a bit of a revolution going on with winemaking there.

Cheers,

Oskaar


Yup - you're right. I keep mentally crossing wires with K1V, since it does have the killer factor and I keep associating that with bayanus strains.

One of these days I'll get it right!! :BangHead: ;D

Oskaar
10-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Yup - you're right. I keep mentally crossing wires with K1V, since it does have the killer factor and I keep associating that with bayanus strains.

One of these days I'll get it right!! :BangHead: ;D


LOL, dude, I do it all the time. There are so many strains available in todays wine/mead/beermaking world that we would have blown a gasket trying to figure out which one to use back when we started making mead. It was easy then, Bourdeaux, Burgundy, Sauterne, Chardonnay, Rhone or Champagne (there were some others but those were pretty much the biggies) and things weren't so well documented either.

Cheers,

Oskaar

wayneb
10-17-2008, 03:19 PM
Documented? Yeah - right. If you were a student at UC Davis and had access to their library. No other school that I know of at the time subscribed to any of the oenology related journals.

And the documentation that most LHBS's offered with their generic yeasts was the blue-inked disclaimer on the plain white sachets that said to keep away from heat! ;)

crowquill
10-18-2008, 01:20 PM
As it turned out, our backup LHB store did have D-47 (and may become our primary LHB store). So we can make the cyster as we wanted on the weekend of my wife's birthday.

Thanks again for the responses. There's really good information on yeast strains here.

Now what should I do with this Premier Cuvee....

Oskaar
10-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Make a nice sparkling mead base cuvee. It works really well for that! It also works well for dry meads, just stay on top of it with nutrient dosing.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar