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Oskaar
12-03-2008, 07:40 PM
You'll notice that Lifetime Patrons, Premium Patrons, Patrons and Administrators have Rank Icons now instead of just text.

Some of you may notice that there is a special group of members with Mead Mentor Rank Icons. This is the group of folks who will be assisting users in the assisted recipe section. We're currently working out some details with this group of people before we open this section up to posting.

EverGreenman
12-04-2008, 12:26 AM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

akueck
12-04-2008, 01:22 AM
I saw them just now and thought they were neat. Slick graphics.

Oskaar
12-04-2008, 02:38 AM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. We're doing this for the folks who are supporting this site and have been here through thin times and have added to the value of the site with their recipes, advice, contribution and just generally being there for people when they are freaked out about their first batch. Our way of showing how much we appreciate them and their support. We'll be adding more special grafix as well and the look and feel of the site will be changing to a more polished and streamlined theme over time.

WRATHWILDE
12-04-2008, 03:04 AM
Ohhh, this is my first post since the change, what'll it be? "Slacker" for the few month absence. "Comic Relief" or a pun based title perhaps? Maybe Vicky & Pete got together and decided let's not call him anything, lets just ignore him. The Suspense is killing me, here it goes "Submit Reply"

wildaho
12-04-2008, 03:42 AM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

Excuse me?

How is it elitist?

Have you EVER been to a site that is as friendly or as informative as this one? Honestly?

This site is built on sharing of knowledge. Some members have shown a propensity for doing that. Nobody has ever asked anything more from you than that.

Granted, there are things in the Patrons forums that you won't see elsewhere. So what? Can you honestly complain about the information or help you have received otherwise? Have we not answered every question you've had?

Look. The main thing that Vicky and Pete have done with the "badges" is to acknowledge those who have shared their their knowledge. You can "trust" what they say, they have the official GotMead? seal.

How many forums have you been on that everybody is an "expert", at least in their own minds? And how many of those "experts" argue with each other?

Here, at least, we acknowledge those who give consistently good answers.

There are things that work for mead that don't work for beer or wine. We've all been there. The majority of users here are looking for answers.

The "badges" just help people know that the answers can be trusted based on community knowledge. And I think you will find that the "Mentor" badges are in agreement. Not just because we all decided that this is the way things "should" be, but because we have all independently come to the same conclusions.

So where is your "elitism" now?

capoeirista13
12-04-2008, 04:28 AM
i think he was just talking about the patron ones, since you have to pay for it and all, not necessarily the mead mentor/administrator ones,which do indeed help to inform us noobs of who we should definitely listen to (which by the way is indeed helpful, a few of you guys gave me tips on my first few brews and the only one that I knew for sure was an 'expert' was oskaar b/c everyone talked about him so much!) I'm sure he meant no offense by it

Oskaar
12-04-2008, 04:36 AM
Yeah, I don't think he meant offense by it either, just talking out loud. At the same time I don't think Wildaho is being offensive either just talking out loud as well. I do it all the time.

It's a simple fact that by trying to please everyone, someone will become displeased. So, we tend to work toward pleasing the preponderance of the active users. Every once in a while we get folks who aren't pleased by anything and they usually go away on their own which makes our job easier, and the forums more pleasant. The rank "badging" is common on most other forums where they have "donors, elite members, advisors," etc. so we're really trying to emulate other forums that have been successful and modeling our content serving and forum experience based on those success stories. Some people will like it some won't. We hope most will.

wildaho
12-04-2008, 04:47 AM
Again, I have to ask if your questions have not been answered? Regardless of "patronage" level? Even though you could do a forum search for 90% of what you are looking for?

We are here to help. The biggest benefit of patronage is recipes and the care and feeding thereof, in my opinion.

Look, we are willing to help everybody and anybody. We don't hold anything back when we answer anybody, regardless of level. It's just that you are going to find more info in the patron's forum. Not because we hold it back, but those that are serious about it are willing to post more information than "Please Rescue My Sorry Ass!". They are also more likely to help keep the site in existence.

Your Mileage May Vary...

Angus
12-04-2008, 09:39 AM
I'll add a little note from my perspective.

Even though there is a small group of mentors who will be dedicated to answering specific questions, not everything we say is absolutely the way anybody should do anything. At no time will you see us answer the "best or only way to do something is......" The advice we give will be based on experience, mostly mistakes, and we are passing on what we find works for a given situation. If there is another way of doing something that a non-mentor knows will work better, then that person can post as well, perhaps even correcting us. So rather than seeing the labels as elitist, see it as a way of being able to trust the answer a little more than one from another poster. Plus, expect an answer from a mentor since that is our responsibility and you should call us out if we do not get back to you in a reasonable period of time.

Finally, never stop questioning or pushing us. We are willing to learn from you too, and will not be offended if you disagree.

Angus

buildmark
12-04-2008, 09:57 AM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

You can always join. :eek:

Do you not get any pleasure or enjoyment from this site?

Why not help them keep it going?

Medsen Fey
12-04-2008, 10:51 AM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

If it is the patron status that you find troublesome, all I can say is I don't think I'm particularly elite.

I do believe I understand Vicky and Pete's reasoning though. This site is not the marketing arm for a large brewing retailer - it stands alone and needs to become financially independent. Amassing a body of information including recipes (really good ones), techniques, and knowledge gained by experience that is readily available and easily searchable creates something of value. Most of us wouldn't think it odd to pay for a book (I have purchased several mead books), and if all the information and recipes in the patrons areas were printed, bound, and title "World's Best Mead Book" I think many folks wouldn't bat an eye at paying $25 to buy it. I personally think the $25 fee to access the material in the patron's areas is the best money I have spent on mead-making.

So if having a source of revenue from patrons gives GotMead a better chance to survive and grow, I think it is a good idea. Offering extra services for nominally more to premium patrons - I can't argue with it. Heck, if Vicky & Pete want to offer a platinum patronage where you get an authentic gold-plated Beowulf mead-horn autographed by Oskaar, I say go for it.

Why? Because deep in my heart I am selfish. I have a brewlog going for a leap year mead that I want to keep posting to it through at least 2012. I want this site to continue to be here. I want to keep getting updated on the latest an greatest of what is going on in the world of honey and mead. I want to keep up with the wonderful friends I have not-quite-met here (and maybe get to taste some of their special batches).

And please remember, this patron thing is not designed to exclude anyone. Anyone who wants to become a patron is welcome. This site is open to anyone that wants to learn about mead, and for folks who are casually interested, or just wanting to try it once, there is a great deal of information available, and a lot of folks willing to give good advice - all for free. But for someone who is seriously wanting to advance their mead making skills, joining as a patron is a good investment, and remains open to anyone.

I don't see that as being elitist.

Medsen (of the big soapbox)

Vino
12-04-2008, 11:10 AM
Heck, if Vicky & Pete want to offer a platinum patronage where you get an authentic gold-plated Beowulf mead-horn autographed by Oskaar, I say go for it.

I'd pay real money for one of those...Vicky; please put me down for 2 ;D...do you think they'll ship in time for Christmas?

In all seriousness, this is the first site I have ever paid to join...not because I felt pressured or because of limited access, but because I wanted to...in large part due to the overwhelming support of both the Administrators and Patrons of this site...Thank each of you for taking the time to share your knowledge, recipes, and encouragement...without it I might have never brewed a second mead.

capoeirista13
12-04-2008, 01:01 PM
Amassing a body of information including recipes (really good ones), techniques, and knowledge gained by experience that is readily available and easily searchable creates something of value. Most of us wouldn't think it odd to pay for a book (I have purchased several mead books), and if all the information and recipes in the patrons areas were printed, bound, and title "World's Best Mead Book" I think many folks wouldn't bat an eye at paying $25 to buy it. I personally think the $25 fee to access the material in the patron's areas is the best money I have spent on mead-making.

thats a really good point!

and also


"In all seriousness, this is the first site I have ever paid to join...not because I felt pressured or because of limited access, but because I wanted to...in large part due to the overwhelming support of both the Administrators and Patrons of this site...Thank each of you for taking the time to share your knowledge, recipes, and encouragement"

agree with the above, haven't joined yet but probably will closer to christmas, and thanks a lot to all of you who help us out

wayneb
12-04-2008, 01:34 PM
Wow. I hope the enthusiasm of all the previous posts comes across as what it really is -- we all LIKE being here! There are other forums out there that have a significant amount of meadmaking knowledge in their databases, but I honestly believe that you will not find, anywhere else on the planet, a group of folks who are as passionate about this hobby, and also equally as passionate about sharing their accumulated knowledge. That's why I joined, and why I will continue to do all I can to help anyone who comes here with questions.

I don't consider any of those new badges to be in any way elitist -- I hope you now come to understand a bit more about why they are there.

osluder
12-04-2008, 01:58 PM
<echo>

Not to pile on or be too pedantic, but if you look at a definition of elitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism), an elite is exactly what is required on a forum such as this promoting a craft highly dependent upon specialized knowledge and experience. :)


[A] select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes ... whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight ...

Although elitism got a bum rap in the last (every?) election cycle, it's sometimes a good thing! ;) In an online community such as Got Mead?, you need every bit of input you can to assess the quality of someone's posts. These icons give (to me anyway) that additional input. Do you care if someone has a paid patronship? Probably not, but do you care if they are a "Lifetime Patron" (bestowed, not bought) or "Mead Mentor"? Probably.

</echo>

osluder
12-04-2008, 02:09 PM
Wow. I hope the enthusiasm of all the previous posts comes across as what it really is -- we all LIKE being here!

Remind me to bring some of these guys along for my next bar fight! ;D

Oskaar
12-04-2008, 02:20 PM
Heh heh heh, a man after my own heart! Nothing like a good knock down drag-out, old fashioned bar fight. They are all too rare nowadays! Everyone wants to escalate to guns, blades or whatever else they can find. Not that there are any rules to a barfight (or any other for that matter) it just makes it a bit tougher to take all factors into consideration.

Oskaar

webmaster
12-04-2008, 05:54 PM
I don't like it.

I think it's elitist.

just my .02

Really? In what way?

Is it that I manage and maintain a venue for meadmakers to congregate at my own expense and time and have done so for 12 years? Or is it that every question nearly anyone has ever asked here has been cheerfully responded to by someone? Or could it be that we've the most combined mead making experience ever gathered in one place?

Do tell, Evergreenman. What is elitist about Gotmead? I'm genuinely curious. :D

The rest of you lugs, thanks for being a part of the Place! Gotmead wouldn't be the fantastic place it is without you!

And no bar fights in here, please....I just had the floors waxed. :rolleyes:

EverGreenman
12-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Wow! This really hit the fan! Sorry to offend or break down any of your paradigms! Wait, no I'm not...

I didn't mean to be offensive, and I hope I didn't come off as such. But it seems like I may have hit a soft spot, or rather induced discussion...finally!

Thing is, I am a large advocate of anti-classism. I feel like creating classes creates boundries and differences, hostility (as is apparent from the overwhelming outcry of patrons in this thread against me, a newb to this forum) and barriers. I know you aren't hostile people! I know you mean the best! I know you have answers and advice based on personal experience and are ready and willing to share it with anyone! And I sincerely respect that and thank you for it!

I just don't like the badges! It makes it seem like some are privilaged and some aren't and I don't like that. You already have the patron section where you can discuss all your secret stuff, and one can join for the exchange of currency (I fully intend to join at some point, when I have currency) I just don't like the labels. I don't like labels. (except pretty ones that go on things. I strongly believe that people should stop labeling each other though.)

In regards to Wildaho's numerous questioning of "haven't you recieved answers to everything you've asked?" The answer is no. I've felt very put off. I often get "do a forum search" or "google it" as opposed to DISCUSSION. I know some of you have been around for a lonnnnnng time and have seen topics discussed numerous times, but that's no excuse to put off a question as "you can find it somewhere else". Yeah, I can, but I want to talk about it. That's all.

Anyways...I'm on a time limit here. Sorry again for offending anyone. I mean no harm.

::offers mead jug?::

oh and this:


Not to pile on or be too pedantic, but if you look at a definition of elitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism), an elite is exactly what is required on a forum such as this promoting a craft highly dependent upon specialized knowledge and experience. :)


Quote:
[A] select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes ... whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight ...
Although elitism got a bum rap in the last (every?) election cycle, it's sometimes a good thing! ;) In an online community such as Got Mead?, you need every bit of input you can to assess the quality of someone's posts. These icons give (to me anyway) that additional input. Do you care if someone has a paid patronship? Probably not, but do you care if they are a "Lifetime Patron" (bestowed, not bought) or "Mead Mentor"? Probably.

was awesome. well played sir.

osluder
12-04-2008, 06:45 PM
EverGreenman, RUN, DUDE! You poked a stick in the hive and pissed off the Queen Bee now. ;D

Seriously, in EverGreenman's defense, "ranking" people does create class distinctions, but that is the reality of an online community that offers "premium" levels of access. The simple fact is such distinctions can be put to good or bad use. In my short experience with the site, it is all good so far. He is just warning us to keep vigilant against their bad use.

By the way, is there a secret handshake? :cool:

Oskaar
12-04-2008, 06:48 PM
Yes, there is. I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you...maybe that's why new patrons keep disappearing? :o

Leonora
12-04-2008, 06:56 PM
Hey, Greenman,

As one of those who has very limited time and is part of the "answering" community, I ask you to consider that if there is a new/interesting question posed, there almost always is discussion.

If it's a question that has been answered eleventy-million times then you are directed to seach.

Or if you don't provide the information that the "Read before you post" sticky requires. It's just not possible to have any idea of what is going on with your mead if you don't use a recipe, take readings, and make observations and then sit down an share that information. "My mead is (whatever), how can I fix it " doesn't mean anything. There are 20 or so different sours and hundreds of different fixes - do we have to sit down and go through them over and over again. It is unrealistic to expect to sit down to the computer and type out a question in 30 seconds that takes people hours to answer.

Oskaar, Vickie, Wayne, Medsen, Angus, et al have spent hundreds of hours carefully and supportively answering question for folks. A little badge is small compensation (hee hee!).

******WARNING WARNING RANT RANT RANT EJECT IF SENSITIVE************
If you do your due diligence you will see over and over people asking questions, getting a clear and well reasoned answer, and then blowing it off and doing what they want. AND THEN whining that their mead failed and asking questions on how to fix it.
Just spend a hour or so on the JAO thread and you can see what I am talking about. No wonder Joe no longer posts.
*******************RANT OFF **********************************

If I can offer a suggestion, GM. Please feel free to talk about what you are thinking or observing with your mead in your brewlog. If you have detailed questions, do some research and post your thoughts on what is going on. If you enjoy discussion, create a space in which it can occur. But always keep in mind that the time I spend responding to you is time out of my life and my choice to do or not do. If you make a compelling question on a topic in which I have information, if I have time, I may answer. If you ask the same question that I just spent 45 minutes tying up an answer to a month ago, it's not going to happen.

YMMV - I am a grumpy old lady... :-)

Leonora

Medsen Fey
12-04-2008, 07:05 PM
I didn't mean to be offensive, and I hope I didn't come off as such.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly take no offense. It is good to discuss controversial points - though bar room brawls have their place too. LOL!


I've felt very put off. I often get "do a forum search" or "google it" as opposed to DISCUSSION. I know some of you have been around for a lonnnnnng time and have seen topics discussed numerous times, but that's no excuse to put off a question as "you can find it somewhere else". Yeah, I can, but I want to talk about it. That's all.

Anyways...I'm on a time limit here.

I'm quite sorry that you have felt put off. I don't think anyone intends that, but as you point out, time is quite precious. There are many question that are recurring (don't believe me? then check the MLD archives and look at questions being asked several years ago) and for which the answer hasn't changed. In an effort to use time wisely we trying to get people to use the search tool (it really does work - especially if you used the advance search features to narrow it down a bit).

Sometimes I will include a link to a thread with the answer to point someone to the right place, but if I don't have the thread at my fingertips, that may not be possible. If a topic has already been discussed at length, asking someone to take the time (and the storage space) to repeat it all again is a bit unfair. Anyone who wants to learn, has a wealth of information that just requires a bit of searching and reading.

If you want to have a discussion, ask something new.

Medsen

dazed
12-04-2008, 07:19 PM
I just don't like the badges! It makes it seem like some are privilaged and some aren't and I don't like that. You already have the patron section where you can discuss all your secret stuff, and one can join for the exchange of currency (I fully intend to join at some point, when I have currency) I just don't like the labels. I don't like labels. (except pretty ones that go on things. I strongly believe that people should stop labeling each other though.)



I couln't agree more with you...Hey I just paid for Patronage so I could have access to those OFF areas. I personally don't care for a nametag...and wouldn't mind an option to turn it off if I wanted too. I just like to be able to access the whole site. I've been a lurker a long time before I ever joined and recently got into mead making. I feel there is plenty of information here as well as some VERY EDUCATED mead makers here. I've seen Oskaar Posts on Many boards so I know it will be money very well spent!

...and thats my .02¢


That's all I have to say about that. (in my best FG voice)

osluder
12-04-2008, 07:54 PM
For some reason, I'm reminded of Monty Python ...


EverGreenman: Look, I was just pointing out that rank icons create class distinctions. I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish Inquisition.

Cardinal Fang: NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

;D

lastbornjoker
12-04-2008, 08:36 PM
Ok, can i just say I love this site.......................Thats it.

webmaster
12-04-2008, 09:19 PM
::tone - conversational discussion, not confrontational:: :downtown:

Interesting. Pete & I are not promoting classism, just making it easier for folks to recognize those who have the experience to give reliable answers to questions, and acknowledging those who contribute their funds to keep it all going. Is it labeling people to indicate those who are experienced, and those who support the site? I think you're reading a lot into what is just an acknowledgment of contribution of time, knowledge and cash.

As to the patronage acknowledgment, we don't do 'secret' stuff in the patron boards, I offer them their own space as a reward because they chose to help me pay for the site, to give them a place that is solely devoted to more advanced meadmaking techniques.

Since the entire cost of this site comes from my personal pockets, and I am for all intents and purposes unemployed (the web design business is suffering from the recession too), I think it only right and proper to acknowledge their kind contributions in a visible manner. This is no different than a park putting a person's name on a brick in the walkway acknowledging their donation. That isn't classism, it is gratitude.

I doubt you can find any decent forum that doesn't have 'administrator' or 'moderator' or 'programming god' or some other title on those who are either accomplished or who run the place. You can't identify the players without a scorecard. Would you rather know if the person you're asking a question to has 1 month or 10 years experience? I would. I don't ask Joe Smoe who got a jar of honey last month and decided to make mead for recipe advice, I ask Pete, who has 30 *years* experience. It isn't classism to want to ask your questions of someone with more experience in a skill than someone with less.

90% of this board and the site are open to the public, you don't even have to register to read and search. More than 50% of my site traffic is unregistered visitors. If I was promoting 'classism', I'd lock it down to all but paying members to 'keep out the rabble', as it were, if I were an elitist. However, I believe information should be available to all, so I keep the forum open. I make parts only for patrons so that I have something to offer those that support the site with their hard-earned money. It is no different than a ticket discount for museum patrons would be.

As far as feeling 'put off' because you've been asked to use the search function here on the site, see the quote from the FAQ below. We've 60K+ posts, that comprise a very detailed discussion of meadmaking. What is the point of having that vast compendium of knowledge if you don't use it?


Item 8 in the FAQ (first forum board, and the agreement you clicked 'ok' on when you signed up): "8. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! This site got started because I was doing my research on meadmaking and created a web page to give me a place to keep my research. The search tool for the forum is located here, and the rest of the site has lots of articles, tips and info, read it first before asking a question that may have been asked dozens of times before.

Don't expect us to do your homework for you. You came here to learn, so study and learn! We're not here to hold your hand, I'm not your mother, and the mead world doesn't owe you instant answers because you don't care to do a search. I spend hours every day searching tech-support forums to learn more about the dozens of tools that run this site, and I don't expect someone to hold my hand, and neither should you."


I get asked 10-20 times a day 'tell me how to make mead'. My time is short too. Running this place is in itself a full-time job, and I've also got my business to run. Nearly everyone here has full-time jobs (sometimes more than one), and they take their personal time to answer questions. We reserve the right to not answer questions that have been asked umpteen times before. I suspect if you had answered them as many times as we had, you'd tell someone to 'use the search function' too.

Did you not come here to learn? And learning, unless it has changed markedly since my college years, involves research. That is why we have the search function. You may have noticed that we don't get surly when people ask these questions, we politely point them to the search. Most forums you'd get flamed for that.

I spend probably 10-15 hours a week searching out information on the web for clients, to figure out how to fix an issue here or on a client site, to find new and interesting mead information or links, or just to learn a new tool or skill. I spent 3 hours research an upgrade of the main site yesterday, and never made a single post, because research gave me the answers I needed. I don't log onto the Vbulletin forums and say 'my forum is broke, how do I fix it?'. I'd not only get shot down, I'd get shot down in an extremely hostile manner. So, I surf the forums, using the search tool and Google, and 9 times out of 10, find my answer. Pete and I did that with a permissions issue last night. It took us 20 minutes, and we had our answer and fixed the problem. On many of the forums I've used to learn things, I don't have an ID, because I've always found my answer by searching. When the answer isn't in the search, *then* I post my question, always prefaced with 'I searched the forums, and didn't find the answer to this'.

"Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for life."

We're not here to tell each person who arrives how to make mead, we're here to learn ourselves, myself included. And the information here *is* here because myself and many others *did* use the search functions here and out on the greater web to learn. This site is the compilation of many peoples' search for knowledge, and is there for anyone to use, if they'll just take the time to find it. :downtown:

wayneb
12-04-2008, 10:44 PM
Hey, Greenman,

YMMV - I am a grumpy old lady... :-)

Leonora

Whaddaya mean, old?? ;D

Leonora
12-04-2008, 10:56 PM
Vintage. A fine aged Vintage...

*grin*

Leonora

wayneb
12-04-2008, 11:04 PM
I couln't agree more with you...Hey I just paid for Patronage so I could have access to those OFF areas. I personally don't care for a nametag...and wouldn't mind an option to turn it off if I wanted too. I just like to be able to access the whole site. I've been a lurker a long time before I ever joined and recently got into mead making. I feel there is plenty of information here as well as some VERY EDUCATED mead makers here. I've seen Oskaar Posts on Many boards so I know it will be money very well spent!

...and thats my .02¢


That's all I have to say about that. (in my best FG voice)

I can see where the badge indicating "patron" (i.e. "paid") status is potentially off-putting to some... but honestly, if you were running a service that stays online in large part because some of the participating folks were appreciative enough to fork over some hard earned $$ to keep it alive, wouldn't you want to recognize them publicly somehow? If you're not interested in advertising the fact that you have enough spare cash to contribute, maybe it makes sense, for you, to turn off the patron badge. But the mentor, admin, etc., badges are there to reassure folks not yet familiar with all the folks in our community that they are getting advice from people who at least have some knowledge of what they speak.

I think that Vicky summed up the situation very well, but she didn't cover this key point that I made in my earlier post: We're all fiercely loyal to this "place," as virtual as it might be, because those of us with some experience in the hobby recognize it for the gem that it is. That doesn't mean we want to be offensive to newcomers or to discourage them -- in fact we want anyone interested in the hobby to consider participating freely and openly, because we have lots to share with each other and we all learn from the inputs of others. Pete has only put one or two people here "on probation" in the time that I've been active on Gotmead, and in both cases it was for inflammatory speech that had nothing at all to do with meadmaking -- there are always trolls out there, and Pete's a pretty effective sergeant-at-arms, minimizing the time and effort the rest of us have to expend to put up with that sort of nonsense. Again, the key point that I want to make is that of all the mead related lists and forums out there, this one is the only one that concentrates on mead, and it is also the only one that operates entirely without corporate backing. We keep this site going because we WANT it to continue.

webmaster
12-04-2008, 11:32 PM
::sniff:: Aww, you guys.....thanks Wayne. You've no idea how happy it makes me to hear stuff like that. It make these late night sessions puttering around on the site adding toys worthwhile......like the worldwide Google membermap I'm testing right now....:rolleyes:

webmaster
12-04-2008, 11:41 PM
EverGreenman, RUN, DUDE! You poked a stick in the hive and pissed off the Queen Bee now. ;D

Seriously, in EverGreenman's defense, "ranking" people does create class distinctions, but that is the reality of an online community that offers "premium" levels of access. The simple fact is such distinctions can be put to good or bad use. In my short experience with the site, it is all good so far. He is just warning us to keep vigilant against their bad use.

By the way, is there a secret handshake? :cool:

Osluder, I'm not pissed. I *am* hurt that our effort to 'put their name on a brick' to express gratitude to those who've pitched in their time and money is degraded in this way. It is sad that there are those who suspect and accuse the worst of intentions without first finding out what was intended. I take solace that those who know Pete and I are aware that our goal here was to express visible thanks (a virtual engraved brick, if you will), rather than the ignoble purpose that has been suggested here by some.

sandman
12-05-2008, 02:18 AM
Ahh... I pays my money, I takes my value. Those who have tasted the results of what I've learned here can vouch for the value I gained from my "seriously minimal" investment.

The labels look cool, the reasoning behind them just helps to clarify who's more likely to have good advice. I think the "Mentor" label is especially good to see for someone who has a serious question or is really looking to get an in-depth answer to a technical issue.

Call it what you want. When my expiration date comes around I'll be the first to send my check in again.

::Just another one of those people who lurked for several months before becoming a patron::

...and that's my .02 ;)

sandman
12-05-2008, 02:22 AM
Oh, one more thing...
To Vicky, Pete, Wayne, Jared, and everyone else I've learned so much from. THANK YOU!!!
You guys rock out loud in my book. :D

osluder
12-05-2008, 03:54 AM
Hmm, I guess now it's my turn to express shock and dismay. I'm honestly a little taken aback at the progression of this thread, so come on folks: "Relax. Don't Worry. Have a home-brew." :)

Vicky, you and some others are reading way too much into what's been said in this thread. Despite your denial, the tone and words of your last post indicate you are pissed. I appreciate that Got Mead? is clearly a labor-of-love and some might thus take negative criticism personally, but I honestly don't think anyone said or meant anything all that disparaging. (Incidentally, my original "pissed Queen Bee" comment was meant in jest hence the grin emoticon at the end of it. People, let's not forget those serve a real purpose or ignore them as "cutesy".)

Let's quickly recap, folks: A new site feature was announced. Someone made a critical statement. They didn't rant or rave, just expressed their simple opinion. A variety of people immediately jumped on that post with responses ranging from very measured to frankly quite defensive. I thought my posts were fairly even-handed, but in hindsight I guess I was just adding fuel to the fire and should have stayed out of it. (I am still waiting for someone to tell me why elitism is a bad thing. Populism is certainly not everything it's cracked up to be! ;))

I think we all understand fully (by now, if not before) the intent of the feature and most of us agree it's a good thing. (Re-read my posts: I was one of those on the side of "goodness".) That I have opted to be a paying member speaks to the fact I consider Got Mead? an effort worth supporting and I'll be in line behind Sandman when it's time to renew.


People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? ... Let’s try to work it out. -- Rodney King, 1992

Now, let's all take a deep breath and put this thread to rest ... please. ;D

Oskaar
12-05-2008, 05:36 AM
Look,

This thread needed to run it's course because there was an inflamatory statement made early on by Evergreenman about elitism in these forums based on a simple grafic moniker. This after only one month and 28 posts worth of exposure to this community.

Personally I think his post was dumb-assed and not really well considered or stated. Everyone has issues; but to project ones personal issues onto this forum is entirely unfair and is obviously anathema to what the people in this mead community have in their hearts as evidenced by the responses. Whatever Evergreenman's issues are, they are HIS issues and not the issues of our Patrons, Mentors or Administrators.

Evergreenman, I hope you are able to get past your aversion to our graphical acknowledgment of hard work, selflessness and eagerness to help people who are motivated to learn about mead. We'll understand either way. Remember that going forward there are rules you agreed to when you registered which require you use the facilities of this forum (i.e. search tool, etc.) and you may trust that you, along with everyone else here will be held to them. I think you'll find that the search tool and the similar thread feature provide a ton of information readily accessible at your fingertips (which to your credit you have already acknowledged in other threads) and will help you along the way as you research mead and meadmaking.

I'm capping this thread and locking it down. Any further "last word" posts will be moderated.

Oskaar