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Matrix4b
12-19-2008, 04:17 PM
I saw a recipe for a carmelized honey mead. On another board, I got told that carmelized sugars do not ferment. Is this true? I figured that the yeastie beasties didn't care, just as long as it is sugar.

The reason why I am asking is that I love carmel and wish to do a strongly flavored carmel mead. I don't know what to do as a recipe. I have had it suggested to use Crystal Malt and make a kind of braggot. Basically, Bring about 3 pounds of Crystal malt to 155 degrees for 45 min in about 2-3 gallons of water and to make a wort and remove the grain mash then use the water as the base water for the primary, mix in honey and follow my normal process. This will produce a slight carmel flavor.

Another suggestion that I got is to "Carmelize" the honey and use that, presumably in the primary and this will result in a good carmel flavor.

I am not sure that this would work, perhapse a combination of the two would be best. Possibly using the "Carmelized Honey" as a sweetner to the secondary and doing a few vanilla beans in the secondary to bring it about.

What do you all think? No recipie yet. I also don't want to use a diffrent honey than I usually do, I can't afford Meadowfoam honey and I hear it is rather scarce now. I have Alfalfa honey and Access to either Wildflower or clove. Those are my honey options. I also did not want to go the artifical route and put in some carmel shots that you would find in a Barista. Though that may be the best way by the sounds of it.

Any suggestions?

akueck
12-20-2008, 02:42 AM
Carmelization involves chemical reactions that make the sugars into larger molecules which are not able to be fermented (by yeast). Depending on how you do it, you might not turn all the sugars into unfermentable ones. I think there is a thread floating around here somewhere about making honey-caramel and another about "burnt" honey mead which is like caramelization and then some.

Crystal malts have had their sugars cooked, which gives them a caramel flavor (they are also called caramel malts). You can also create this effect with any grain--I made homemade caramel quinoa which had a nice caramel flavor. (see my GF stout brewlog for the gory details.)

Experiment and let us know how it goes! I would start with a cheaper honey. You don't need to put it in mead right away, you can always test it out and use it for baking or just eating if it doesn't come out the way you want.

Legitapotimous
03-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Please go for it or hope u did since its been a long time please report I want to use carmel as well!

Matrix4b
03-08-2012, 11:44 AM
Please go for it or hope u did since its been a long time please report I want to use carmel as well!

Haven't had the opertunity for it, yet. This may end up being a winter brew when I don't have any fruit. I have since learned that a Bochet (or burnt honey mead) is similar to what I want but haven't tasted a Bochet yet. I want an overall carmelly and light flavor. I think that this also may be up to honey choice and treatment. I still may do carmel in the secondary. See If I can get a liquid carmel flavor and whip it up into a very sweet secondary with some malto-dextrin and maybe even some lactose. This may be a great one with the buckwheat honey but I wish I could find a source that is inexpensive for Medowfoam. I hear that it has a marshmelloy flavor that should be awesome with this concept.

Matrix

fatbloke
03-08-2012, 11:57 AM
Haven't tried it myself yet, its on the "to do" list.

Apparently, straight bochet has a "toasted marshmallow" sort of flavour.......

TAKeyser
03-08-2012, 01:50 PM
I saw Caramel Extract for sale on Amazon, one had sorbates so look at the ingredients before purchasing.

As for Meadowfoam honey, Glory Bee ( http://honey.glorybee.com/shop/6-Count-Honey-Jar-Cases/ ) seems to be less expensive than the Bee folks by a little, but it says "Herbal Meadowfoam" so I'm not sure if it is the same as Bee Folks "Meadowfoam". It's out of my price range at the moment so I haven't called on it yet.

Matrix4b
03-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Hmm, didn't want to go with an extract unless I make that extract myself. I wanted to do it with as much home-made know how as I could. Not as far as starting my own apiary and growing sugar cane as I am more of a city type of person. But If I can make it using common products that you can find as their natural substance, like an herb or the sugar or buying fruit at the grocery store then that is the way I wish to go. I prefer to rely on ingredients that can be found outside of a given company and have the same flavor.

I haven't the fogiest idea how to grow Mangoes but buying them in any store should be easily replicatable but buying an extract from a company that may be out of business in the next 10 years is not something I would like to do. It's more easily replicateable.

Matrix

TAKeyser
03-09-2012, 11:40 AM
I can understand the avoiding the extract route. I have not used it, but someone was talking about it in a facebook Mead Making group so I figured I'd pass it along to you as an option for Caramel flavor. You may be able to reproduce the caramel flavor with some brown sugar and lactose or at least that was the route I was considering taking.

TheAlchemist
03-09-2012, 04:30 PM
My Rapture Bochet (in the MeadLog) is Meadowfoam. Haven't tasted it recently, but it was shaping up nicely at the last tasting....

TAKeyser
03-09-2012, 05:34 PM
My Rapture Bochet (in the MeadLog) is Meadowfoam. Haven't tasted it recently, but it was shaping up nicely at the last tasting....

I was considering Meadowfoam for the Bochet that I just made, but money prevented it and I didn't want to risk the expensive honey on a process I had never tried before. From the samples I've pulled from my Bochet, a Meadowfoam Bochet may be in the future though.

Did the Marshmallow flavor of the Meadowfoam stay after the caramelizing process?

jens183
03-10-2012, 05:25 PM
I saw a recipe for a carmelized honey mead. On another board, I got told that carmelized sugars do not ferment. Is this true? I figured that the yeastie beasties didn't care, just as long as it is sugar.

I have no experience, but just sharing some ideas.:)

You can probably caramelize/roast honey into any degree of caramelization ranging from palest barely heated caramel honey to darkest black/burned charcoal honey. I never done it I just guessing based on "normal" kitchen caramelization of sugars(for baking etc) and just like you can make your own Crystal/caramel Malt from soaked malt roasted in the owen at different legths of time and temperatures see(Toasting Your Own Malt (http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter20-4.html)).

You can probably make your own "honey bill" just like beer makers use "grain bill"(based on different quanties of different roasted grains/honey of different spiecies of honey/grain etc). This might give you an array of different interesting caramel flavours and colorings(ranging all the way from light to black ) in the mead(just like beer).

I think that when the caramelization of the fermentable sugars increases the yeasts ability for attenuation decreases(leaving higher fg). Maybe it might be nice with some hops.

Maybe you can just dissolve a mix of caramalized honey and raw honey in some water and taste it to get an impression of the taste. starting at a ratio of 1/10 and take it from there. The final product will possibly taste different without sweetnes, maybe somebody know anything about that.

I would love to see some other comments.

Is a mead with just honey and roasted/caramelized honey categorized as a "traditional mead"?

Midnight Sun
03-10-2012, 06:07 PM
A mead made with caramelized honey is a bochet. The fermentation process is basically essentially the same as a traditional, though. The one I made does have a toasted marshmallow flavor. It also has a burnt taste that I am trying to age out. I will try another sometime soon.

Jas53
03-10-2012, 06:50 PM
I was considering Meadowfoam for the Bochet that I just made, but money prevented it and I didn't want to risk the expensive honey on a process I had never tried before. From the samples I've pulled from my Bochet, a Meadowfoam Bochet may be in the future though.




And how is your bochet turning out? Recipe?

billv
03-10-2012, 08:15 PM
You might want to consider using a Belgian Candi Syrup to add color and a caramel/toffee flavor:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/dark-candi-syrup-16-oz.html

I've used these sugars several times when brewing Belgian dubbels, and they are indeed very flavorful.

TAKeyser
03-11-2012, 01:58 AM
And how is your bochet turning out? Recipe?

So far it's turning out real well. Great fermentation going and though it is still real sweet, you can taste a nice toffee flavor. Great deep ruby red color.

the recipe http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19442

huesmann
03-11-2012, 10:45 AM
If caramelized sugars are unfermentable, how does bochet work?

wayneb
03-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Put simply, not all the sugars get fully carmelized. You still end up with most of the sugar in a fermentable form.