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Teufelhund
01-21-2009, 01:18 PM
Hi all,

Has anyone made a medicinal metheglin? Looking for an over-all type. I've studied herbology for 20+ yrs and know what herbs can do what, but has there been any recipes that are a cure-all?
Taking into consideration the alc factor, I'd like to make this one closer to 18% if I can, or, if it's wise, in this case.
Also, taste-wise, I'm thinking of very sweet to hide medicinal herb tastes. Something like a frangelica comes to mind but that's just a first consideration for desired end.
At any rate, all suggestions will be appreciated.

Cheers!

DD

Angus
01-21-2009, 01:26 PM
How about one that tastes like honey? If you can have the medicinal benefits of the herbs, whilst keeping it tasting like honey, that would be a drink!

Angus

osluder
01-21-2009, 01:29 PM
There may be an interesting tie-in here to Medsen Fey's flavonoid thread. -- Olen

Vino
01-21-2009, 01:38 PM
Here's something I ran across on the net...

ANTI-CANCER & CORONARY BENEFITS
Moderate consumption of red wine on a regular basis may be a preventative against coronary disease and some forms of cancer. The chemical components thought to be responsible are catechins, also known as flavanoids and related to tannins . Catechins are believed to function as anti-oxidants, preventing molecules known as "free-radicals" from doing cellular damage. One particular form of flavinoid, called oligomeric procyanidin, recently proved to prevent hardening of the arteries.

See the rest of the article here (http://www.winepros.org/wine101/wine-health.htm).

osluder
01-21-2009, 01:52 PM
ssteufelhund,

Akueck mentioned in a post on that same flavonoid thread the book Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers. Maybe there might be some useful information there. Combine that with fruit flavonoids and your existing knowledge of herbal lore, you might be well on your way to something interesting. Not sure what it would be called though: a melo-methe-braggot? ;D

-- Olen

akueck
01-22-2009, 12:42 AM
There are a ton of recipes in that book. Lots of them are historical, so who knows how they will taste, but I'd like to try many of them in the future. They have a couple mead recipes in there too.

Kee
01-22-2009, 01:12 AM
Hi all,

Has anyone made a medicinal metheglin? Looking for an over-all type. I've studied herbology for 20+ yrs and know what herbs can do what, but has there been any recipes that are a cure-all?
Taking into consideration the alc factor, I'd like to make this one closer to 18% if I can, or, if it's wise, in this case.
Also, taste-wise, I'm thinking of very sweet to hide medicinal herb tastes. Something like a frangelica comes to mind but that's just a first consideration for desired end.
At any rate, all suggestions will be appreciated.

Cheers!

DD

I also study herbs and have been thinking along similar lines.

What is your actual intent? Do you want an immuno-stimulant to help from getting sick or something to take when you are sick with a cold/flu?

EverGreenman
01-22-2009, 02:33 AM
Based on this thread I went down to the local alternative book store and picked up the Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers book and let me just reiterate how incredible a resource it is. I highly highly recommend anyone interested in herbal medicine to pick it up.

Methinks this will probably be my line of focus in future endeavors. SO many recipes to try and to toy with (mostly replacing honey for sugar) AhhhhhHHHHHH!!! There's even a freakin mead recipe from Martha Washington!!! (it calls for bay, rosemary(which appears in the psychotropic chapter!) and hyssop)

"Behind every good man there is a woman, and that woman was Martha Washington, man, and everyday George would come home, she would have a big fat bowl waiting for him, man, when he come in the door, man, she was a hip, hip, hip lady, man. "
-slater. Dazed and Confuzed.

Xixist
01-22-2009, 04:14 AM
I can see it now...Snake oil mead
hehe ..sounds good
Xixist

Medsen Fey
01-22-2009, 10:22 AM
The concept of making "tonic meads" was what sparked my interest in meadmaking at the very start. To date, I have made only one that might fall into that category - a whole hive mead made with bee pollen, royal jelly, and propolis. It tastes alright, but I don't know how medicinal it might be because I suspect any useful proteins, peptides or enzymes probably all precipitated out with the yeast, or were otherwise deactivated by the fermentation process.

Still I think the concept is good, and a sweet mead may prove to be a fine delivery mechanism for any number of herbal combinations that might otherwise taste foul. Up until now, I have been concentrating on trying to master the fermentation process to be able to consistently produce meads with the desired level of sweetness and alcohol that taste good - no easy challenge (at least for me). The various Meadeira projects I am aging may prove to be a useful base for tonics. They have high alcohol, and high sugar, but are stable against temperature and there is no concern for oxidation after opening. They could sit on your kitchen shelf and be used when needed, not unlike a bottle of medicine.

Phase 2 of my journey will be to find recipes that use herbal products in a way that taste good and provide benefit. Obviously testing this becomes a challenge, but I expect this is a project that may take some time.

The book Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers is an interesting one with some good ideas for recipes. Also interesting is rummaging through the Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12393). There are more than a few recipes outlined there that might be tonic in nature, though you have to decipher some of the old English.

Perhaps with enough interest, we may be able to start a separate category of threads under "Tonic Mead" or "Mead and Health" or some such.

Medsen

Teufelhund
01-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Great responses guys. 'Preciate it.

Goal #1 is a meth for colds, probably using yarrow, possibly mullein, lemon balm, sage, elderberries, rosemary and possibly some ginseng. Should be very sweet, like a syrup. Alc % shouldn't really be an issue due to herb content. At least that's what I'm thinking at this time.
Goal #2 is a tonic, much like a shooter. high alc, deep infusion of herbs, not sweet. Again, that's just the thoughts at this time.

Cheers!

DD

Kee
01-22-2009, 03:07 PM
I would start this the way you would design a new tea or tincture for someone. Figure out your primary and secondary actions and the 'nice to haves'. Write down all the herbs that fit, looking at multiple actions, and add/eliminate from there and then figure out the ratios you want. Roughly 45-50% of herbs for the primary action, 30-40% for secondary action, and less than 10% for catalyst / energy.


As is, the flu meth has a great start. Your ingredients look good. It looks like this is for a wet, mucousy sort of flu with a fever... something that would lead to bronchitis. Not for a drier cold where you feel icky. Is that right?

You should consider adding:
ˇ Astragalus - Immuno-stimulant, Anti-inflammatory, Antiviral, Diuretic.
ˇ Echinacea - Antibiotic, Anti-Septic, Antiviral, Depuratives, Diaphoretic, Immuno-stimulant, Mucilant. Not only is it good for colds and congestion, it helps get the body started on cleaning up/detoxing from having a cold.
ˇ Chamomile - Analgesic/Anodyne, Antibiotic, Antifungal, Anti-inflammatory, Antipyretic, Antiseptic, Calmative, Carminative, Diaphoretic, Diuretic, Expectorant, Nervine. It's really good for bronchitis, colds, colic, and fever.
ˇ Rosehips - Antimicrobial, Antipyretic, Antiseptic, Antispasmodic. Good for Colds, Flus, Fevers, and Sore Throats. Very high in vitamin C. It is mildy astringent; however, you might need that for balance.
ˇ Golden Seal - Antibacterial, Anti-catarrhal, Anti-perodic, Antiseptic, Antispasmodic, Depurative, Immuno-stimulant. It is specific for soothing mucous membranes.
ˇ Oats - Nice soothing nervine full of minerals.

You might also consider just a touch (like 1-2% of the tea) of peppermint, spearmint, cinnamon, or ginger to act as a catalyst.

I hesitate a bit with the ginseng though. I believe in TCM it's contraindicated with acute situations. That doesn't mean don't use it. I love Astragalus and have been told the same thing about it. I still use it with colds/flus. It seems to me that that's when you need it the most.


For your tonic, consider:

ˇ Astragalus – Immuno-stimulant/immuno-tonic. This is it’s primary application.
ˇ Shiitake mushrooms – Adaptogen, Immuno-stimulant. Mushrooms are often overlooked in the US. Shiitake is great for normalizing blood pressure and reducing LDLs while stimulating the immune system. Reishi mushrooms might make a nice complement. It’s a nice Adaptogen, Alterative, Nervine, and Immune-tonic.
ˇ Oats - Nice soothing nervine full of minerals.

Again, you should also consider a catalyst.


You should probably make tea(s) and add those to the primary rather than adding directly to the primary/secondary. The exception might be the roots/mushrooms.

I would do two teas, one for the aerial parts and one for the roots as the roots really should sit much longer to pull all of the constituents out. You should also double cover to ensure the teas are as strong as possible.

If I had to give up all of my herb books except one, it would be The Little Herb Encyclopedia. It’s my favorite! It’s more valuable to me than the Herbal PDR or Hoffman’s. I paid $15 for it at Borders, but a friend picked it up on ˝ priced books for $2- $3.

Regards,
Heather

Kee
01-22-2009, 03:27 PM
BTW, I have spent a good deal of time designing a immune-tonic tea for one of my herbal classes. You're welcome to it. It's a very strong, heavy energy tea best drunk before bed. It's also a almost too busy and can get expensive to mix a batch, but at least you can see an example of an immune-boost tea.

xxx

Please email me if you want the recipe.

~~~~~
I think these have been my longest posts on here! ;D

Regards,
Heather

wayneb
01-22-2009, 04:21 PM
I've done a high initial gravity metheglyn that I called Rocket Fuel (mostly because at 17%+ ABV you can't help but taste some fusels in it), which was flavored in secondary with a lot of dried meadowsweet flowers. It has a nice nutty-sweet smoothness (think along the lines of almond extract) that hides the ethanol content pretty well, and since European meadowsweet has a high concentration of salicylic acid in it (also found in willow bark, it is chemically similar to acetylsalicylic acid -- commonly known as aspirin), this is the only mead that I know of that contains its own hangover remedy! :rolleyes:

Gargoylesama
01-22-2009, 04:47 PM
Hi all,

Has anyone made a medicinal metheglin?

I have made a mint metheglin. I also have a five gallon batch of it bulk aging right now. It is sweet with a slight aroma and taste of mint. It also picked up some tannins from the stems.

It is a nice after dinner aperatif, or how ever you would spell it. I guess I could call it a dessert mead. Sweet with the mint to aid in digestion. I only had it coming in around 10% alcohol.

osluder
01-22-2009, 05:59 PM
It is a nice after dinner aperatif, or how ever you would spell it. [...] Sweet with the mint to aid in digestion.

An apéritif (or aperitif) is before a meal and a digestif is after the meal. Sorry, the pedant in me couldn't resist. ;D -- Olen

EverGreenman
01-22-2009, 06:50 PM
I've done a high initial gravity metheglyn that I called Rocket Fuel (mostly because at 17%+ ABV you can't help but taste some fusels in it), which was flavored in secondary with a lot of dried meadowsweet flowers. It has a nice nutty-sweet smoothness (think along the lines of almond extract) that hides the ethanol content pretty well, and since European meadowsweet has a high concentration of salicylic acid in it (also found in willow bark, it is chemically similar to acetylsalicylic acid -- commonly known as aspirin), this is the only mead that I know of that contains its own hangover remedy! :rolleyes:

hey wayne in regards to the salicylic acids are you talking about meadowsweet honey or meadowsweet flowers?

curious cus I think I'd like to include this in the lavender rhodomel I've been designing. Miriam posted some time ago that her lavender mead was wonderful for taking care of headaches... :)

wayneb
01-22-2009, 07:53 PM
It is in the flowers, and in the green leaves. Not in the honey that I know of. Keep in mind that this is the European meadowsweet (Filipendula ulmaria). Although it has been introduced in North America and does grow wild in some places, other local plants referred to as "meadowsweet" aren't Filipendula.

Wolfie
01-23-2009, 02:34 PM
It may wind up tasting a hint medicinal no matter what, and you know your herbs or where to look for some, they question is what herbs or flavors would you add for non-medicinal purposes to help the flavor?

It can always be infused in secondary, so you can afford to put that aside and see what the whole concoction tastes like. Strong flavors like Lavender and Rosemary comes to mind for me as well (but then again It's kind of been on my mind for a couple of months--I plan on making a lavender rosemary as well.)

No to hijack: Anyone have a good source of meadowsweet?

PS--I've also read medicinal beers. I kept thinking about the Saffron Metheglin recipes I see in the patrons board....

Kee
01-23-2009, 03:30 PM
Wolfie, my favorite online resource for bulk herbs is mountainroseherbs.com (http://www.mountainroseherbs.com). The prices are reasonable, and the quality is always high. I haven't had any issues yet.

Teufelhund
01-23-2009, 03:56 PM
[quote=Kee;118390]>>>>It looks like this is for a wet, mucousy sort of flu with a fever... something that would lead to bronchitis. Not for a drier cold where you feel icky. Is that right?

It can be used for either as the yarrow will most likely be the main herb. Due to it's peppery flavor, the other herbs are for flavor as well as purpose.

>>>>You should consider adding:
ˇ Astragalus -

Never tried it and probably won't as I'm not familiar with it's taste.

Echinacea ˇ Chamomile -ˇ Rosehips

Maybe. Again, flavor. I'm also considering horehound.

ˇ Golden Seal

Definitely NOT! Comrade of mine a few decades ago applied the goldenseal poultice on a deeper cut on another Brother. Goldenseal is great for small cuts, scrapes but when applied to deeper gouges, it promotes gangrene. Brother lost his leg and almost his life. I'll pass. Besides, it tastes like sh*t and the overall effects are the same as several other of the herbs being considered.

-ˇ Oats -

Naaaaah! Or should I say Niiiiieeeegh? ;D


>>>>>You might also consider just a touch (like 1-2% of the tea) of peppermint, spearmint, cinnamon, or ginger to act as a catalyst.

Hmmmm....yes, but that's not really the taste I want, at least for #1. Perhaps for #2. Something like #2 could just use some Galens 151 vodka or something.
Again, as I posted in #1, something like a frangelica taste. Almost a liquour-type of feel. Something dense and strong, which is why I'm considering using only dark honeys such as buckwheat. I've been re-reading Ken Schramms book section on metheglins in "The Complete Meadmaker" and it has several other seeds such as cardomom and coriander that add quite nice essenses that I'm looking for in the finished product.
Thanks so much for the info and options, Heather! I'll pick yer niggin' later as to our herbology interest.

Cheers!

DD

Kee
01-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Astragalus doesn't have a flavor. I understand not adding because you're not familiar with it, but it is something to put on your list to get familiar with.

I also understand not using Golden Seal on deep cuts, but it is great for mucous membranes. But it does taste BAD!

I also thought of mentioning Osha. It does wonders to knock out colds/flus, but it tastes earthy - like licking dirt! I actually make a myl with it - ground Osha in honey, turned and aged for a month. It is amazing on sore throats!

osluder
01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
Just a general comment: I have always been interested in the subject of herbs and their use in alternative medicine, etc., so this is all extremely fascinating to me. I am glad that there are a number of people on the forums with such deep knowledge of the subject and look forward to learning more. I have made a definite note of some of the texts mentioned (I already have a copy of the Herbal PDR), and will start to seek them out.

Now back to our regular programming ... ;D -- Olen

Kee
01-23-2009, 10:04 PM
Check out Michael Moore's website (the herbalist, not the filmmaker). I haven't heard how he's doing lately. He's been sick and wasn't been doing well. Anyway, there's been a big effort the last few years to capture his knowledge before he passes. I believe it's free.

DD - Astragalus doesn't have a noticable flavor. Definately one to put on your list to learn.

wayneb
01-24-2009, 12:06 AM
Kee, just to echo what you said about suppliers, I also order from Mountain Rose and they are one of the most consistent online herbal suppliers that I've found. BTW - Wolfie if you're going to use meadowsweet, order the dried whole flowers. You'll get more of the sweet flavor and more of the nutty flavor from the flowers. The leaves tend to taste more medicinal.

Miriam
01-24-2009, 02:04 PM
I've found that mead works fine as a tincture alternative. Rosemary/lavender mead is tasty and cures headaches - chocolate mead has a great reputation here as an aphrodisiac - hawthorn blossom mead soothes jumpy nerves and calms down heart palpitations due to hormonal surges.

But I wonder how useful medicinals could be in cases of respiratory disease. I can imagine that a glass of mead drunk while running a fever would make a patient feel worse. That is, *my* head spins when I have a fever, never mind the alcohol. Umm...diaphoretic and sleep-inducing, though, especially if it has chamomile.

I agree that adding goldenseal to a mead is wasting honey. Thinking of this topic, it strikes me that for urinary tract infections, a combination of echinacea, uva ursi and juniper would be both tasty and effective.

Kee
01-24-2009, 05:26 PM
As for how much medicine you can get out of a medicinal meth, if the marc to menstrum ratios are high enough, it won't be an issue. It never occured to me anyone would have glass of mead or two before bed. I thought of it as another delivery system. That much alcohol in general wouldn't be good when you're sick. :puke:

I was taught to consider actions. Flavor is more of an afterthought. Yea, Golden seal isn't the best tasting, but if you need it...

~~~~
Added:

I do like the idea of meadowsweet or rosemary/lavender for headaches. I'll have to buy some one gallon containers soon...

Oskaar
01-24-2009, 11:51 PM
I've found that mead works fine as a tincture alternative. Rosemary/lavender mead is tasty and cures headaches - chocolate mead has a great reputation here as an aphrodisiac - hawthorn blossom mead soothes jumpy nerves and calms down heart palpitations due to hormonal surges.

But I wonder how useful medicinals could be in cases of respiratory disease. I can imagine that a glass of mead drunk while running a fever would make a patient feel worse. That is, *my* head spins when I have a fever, never mind the alcohol. Umm...diaphoretic and sleep-inducing, though, especially if it has chamomile.

I agree that adding goldenseal to a mead is wasting honey. Thinking of this topic, it strikes me that for urinary tract infections, a combination of echinacea, uva ursi and juniper would be both tasty and effective.

Hey there Miriam!! Glad to see you here! Don't be a stranger.

Cheers, Oskaar

Miriam
01-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Hey there, Oskaar me boy!

Your kind greeting makes me feel sheepish for not having shown my face around here...but I'm out of excuses. That is, you've heard them already.

Thinking of medicinal mead, I made a blueberry/chamomile mel two years ago - recipe culled off the Net, maybe from The Bees Knees. I know you were curious about it. But it tastes soapy. I decided that I wasn't racking my meads quickly enough. If they're on the sediment too long, they go soapy on me. Dern it, now I have to go and open a bottle - it's been a year since I tried it.

...Well, it's improved, but the soap is still frustratingly there. It's a separate overtone that appears in the nose after the gulp, with its odd, chili and almost chocolate-like notes goes down. I'll open another bottle a year from now, hoping that the off-taste goes away by itself.

I don't think I'm talking myself into it, but although the chamomile is not at all noticeable, I do feel the same effect of slipping out of tension and into a relaxed mode, that I get from a cup of chamomile tea. Ah, honey, how it does enhance any fruit, flower, or herb. I think my next metheglin will be flavored with flowers from my lemon tree. An orange-blossom meth I made three years ago was very good indeed (no soap).

What do the herbalists say about citrus-blossom metheglin? And I'd like to try a mimosa meth some day; can you imagine how soothing and comforting it would be?

wirewraps
11-24-2014, 07:43 PM
I think it's time this thread is revived. I think the idea of using mead to deliver herbal medecine is fascinating. I only stared making mead last January and now have 7 batches aging along nicely. I only use a no heat methodolgy. I just racked two of my traditionals onto herbs to make tonics.

To 3 gallons of 16% ABV (using D47) traditional I added:
20g Eleuthro (Siberian Ginseng)
40g Burdock Root
40g Astragulus Root
30g Fo-Ti
20g Echinacea
15g Saw Palmetto Berries
40g Ginger Juice
2 Medium roast Oak Cubes.

I plan to leave them to extract for 4-8 weeks.

To one gallon of the same traditional I added:
20g Ginger Juice
40g dried Elderberries
40g dried Hawthorne Berries
2g Star Anise

Lastly I racked 5 gallons of 15.5% and rising ABV (K1) Traditional to:
115g dried Hawthorne Berries
95g Elderberries
35g Saw Palmetto Berries
20g Eleuthero
15g Echinacea

In the future however, I plan to experiment with making herbal decoctions and using that to dilute my honey before I pitch my yeast. This way I can extract the herb with hot water or by boiling as the case may be and have a strong medicinal component, with the option of course to add more things to the batch in secondary.

chaordic
12-04-2014, 06:51 PM
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, as I've been tincturing more. Does anyone have any sense of dosage, or of concentration of plant material in a metheglin to create a potent enough drink to be useful in acute situations (like the flu) as well as tonically? I'm looking particularly at you, wirewraps, since you've got pretty specific measurements for your tonics. Also, certain constituents extract better in water than alcohol and vice verca; usually I'll use 50% abv to extract from dried herbs, unless I'm looking to extract a polysaccharide or other primarily water-soluble material. So what can we do when we're trying to extract something better extracted with alcohol?

My thoughts thus far:
Desired dose size, 1-3 oz?
If 1 oz, and usual tincture dose is from .75-1.5ml (~30 ml/oz), then we'd want it to be 1/30th as strong?
Assuming no loss of potency, and 1:4 ratio of dried herb by weight to liquid volume of menstruum, or 1 lb of herb per half gallon in tincture...
1/3 lb (150g) of herb per five gallon batch of mead, or 30g/gallon?
Of course, that's assuming equal potency. Maybe double or so to account for lower abv? Obviously, this lends itself to blends well, since it's more dilute.

Thoughts?