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mts198
05-09-2009, 05:51 PM
I added a pound of buckwheat honey @ 1.013 and they next day it had a crusty foam and a strong smell of band-aids, I knew I should of did that. anyways it's at 1.020 now and I added some gelatin because I heard it can slow down "brett" infections. I also read that running it through an activated carbon filter can remove some of the smell.
Starting SG 1.073 Guess EG 1.000

Any suggestions?

Oskaar
05-09-2009, 06:07 PM
In a word, phenols will generally be the culprit when you have a band-aid smell. What kind of sanitizer did you use on your equipment? It doesn't mean that you have a brett infection either. Brett would smell like the stables in a barnyard, which by the way is a normal smell for Easter Buckwheat. Where do you live, and where did you get the honey?

Cheers, Oskaar

mts198
05-09-2009, 06:27 PM
In a word, phenols will generally be the culprit when you have a band-aid smell. What kind of sanitizer did you use on your equipment? It doesn't mean that you have a brett infection either. Brett would smell like the stables in a barnyard, which by the way is a normal smell for Easter Buckwheat. Where do you live, and where did you get the honey?

Cheers, Oskaar
I used one-step sanitizer, It doesn't have a barnyard smell but the straight buckwheat honey had a little musky smell. I live in central PA, I got my 5 pound clove and 1 pound buckwheat from Dutch Gold.
It was a banana and clove smell now it's a band-aid smell.

exlineg
05-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Bandaid phenols typically come from a bacteria call pediococcus damnosus... Brett tends to have more of a caleanic lactic sourness (though Pete is right, some folks have described Brett as being barnyard like.) If it is indeed pediococcus it probably did not come from the honey, but could definitely have been introduced at the same time. If it gets into your brew system it can be a real bitch to get rid of. My advices is usually to throw away anything plastic that you are using (hoses, spoons, measuring cups, etc.) and replacing them. Glass and stainless can be sanitized with a good sanitizer (I like Starsan personnally), but plastic just seems to be too porous and gives the wee beasties too many places to hide.

If you are cross utilizing corny kegs from beer the infection can also be in the "beer stone" at the bottom of the keg. If that's the case a good caustic cleaner (PBW is my choice) will be needed to get rid of the beer stone before the sanitizer.

Good luck. As someone who's had to deal with a pediococcus infection (turned out to be in my counterflow chiller) I can tell you that it can be tough to get rid of, but it can be done as long as you are really meticulous about it.

Cheers,
Glenn

mts198
05-10-2009, 11:23 AM
Bandaid phenols typically come from a bacteria call pediococcus damnosus... Brett tends to have more of a caleanic lactic sourness (though Pete is right, some folks have described Brett as being barnyard like.) If it is indeed pediococcus it probably did not come from the honey, but could definitely have been introduced at the same time. If it gets into your brew system it can be a real bitch to get rid of. My advices is usually to throw away anything plastic that you are using (hoses, spoons, measuring cups, etc.) and replacing them. Glass and stainless can be sanitized with a good sanitizer (I like Starsan personnally), but plastic just seems to be too porous and gives the wee beasties too many places to hide.

If you are cross utilizing corny kegs from beer the infection can also be in the "beer stone" at the bottom of the keg. If that's the case a good caustic cleaner (PBW is my choice) will be needed to get rid of the beer stone before the sanitizer.

Good luck. As someone who's had to deal with a pediococcus infection (turned out to be in my counterflow chiller) I can tell you that it can be tough to get rid of, but it can be done as long as you are really meticulous about it.

Cheers,
Glenn

I'm not sure if it's pediococcus either but it's something nevertheless, I've been reading different techniques to remove phenols from mead and i'm going to try three of them. The techniques are known to lessen the taste, but at this point I don't think I can do anymore harm. I'll let you guys know what happens. It'll probably be a month or so
Thanks

Oskaar
05-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Great points Glenn!

Some additional thoughts on sanitizers. The reason I asked about which sanitizer you use is that sometimes when bleach is used as a sanitizer and not completely rinsed off it will impart a somewhat "plastic" or "band-aid" smell. This is apart from the Pediococcus sp. effects on mead, beer and other fermented beverages. Glenn is right on about having an endemic infection in your meadmaking area. It's a bitch to get rid of it as was the case with one of the guys in my brew-club. We finally ended up just pulling everything out of his garage and bleach cleaning the floors, walls, ceiling, fixtures and everyting that was bolted down. All the brewing equipment that wasn't stainless or glass was pitched and replaced. Voila! No more infections.

In my former life I was a Medical Technologist/Microbiologist and one of the many things I carried over from that discipline into fermentation is that I change up on the sanitizers I use about every 5th batch (generally Iodophor and Star San). This helps to knock off anything that is building up a resistance to the current rotation of sanitizer being used, and also is a good way to keep on top of your aseptic technique. It's always advisable (in my opionion) to use a small kitchen torch to flame the mouth of your carboys or corneys before and after each treatment, specific gravity sample, pH testing, etc. Be sure that you clean around the mouth of the carboy, down the neck and of course your airlock and bung as well.

Keep dust, pet dander, dryer vents, ventilation registers etc. clean and free of dust and debris. It helps to mop the floors at least once a month as well with a bleach solution.

akueck
05-10-2009, 02:39 PM
Keep dust, pet dander, dryer vents, ventilation registers etc. clean and free of dust and debris. It helps to mop the floors at least once a month as well with a bleach solution.

Shhh! My wife will stop thinking I clean the kitchen to be a good husband. ;D

mts198
05-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Great points Glenn!

Some additional thoughts on sanitizers. The reason I asked about which sanitizer you use is that sometimes when bleach is used as a sanitizer and not completely rinsed off it will impart a somewhat "plastic" or "band-aid" smell. This is apart from the Pediococcus sp. effects on mead, beer and other fermented beverages. Glenn is right on about having an endemic infection in your meadmaking area. It's a bitch to get rid of it as was the case with one of the guys in my brew-club. We finally ended up just pulling everything out of his garage and bleach cleaning the floors, walls, ceiling, fixtures and everyting that was bolted down. All the brewing equipment that wasn't stainless or glass was pitched and replaced. Voila! No more infections.

In my former life I was a Medical Technologist/Microbiologist and one of the many things I carried over from that discipline into fermentation is that I change up on the sanitizers I use about every 5th batch (generally Iodophor and Star San). This helps to knock off anything that is building up a resistance to the current rotation of sanitizer being used, and also is a good way to keep on top of your aseptic technique. It's always advisable (in my opionion) to use a small kitchen torch to flame the mouth of your carboys or corneys before and after each treatment, specific gravity sample, pH testing, etc. Be sure that you clean around the mouth of the carboy, down the neck and of course your airlock and bung as well.

Keep dust, pet dander, dryer vents, ventilation registers etc. clean and free of dust and debris. It helps to mop the floors at least once a month as well with a bleach solution.

CRAP, That sucks, I should of cleaned better, I didn't clean things as well as you described and I used it for beer last time. Oh well live and learn.
Thanks guys

Oskaar
05-10-2009, 04:26 PM
Well, this is a bit late in the thread but no one asked you a couple of very simple things.

1. What your exact recipe and process has been along with any and all treatments (nutrient, stirring, pH, SG and other measurements)

2. What the ambient temperature of your fermentation area is along with the temperature of the fermenting must.

Also be aware that there is a very distinct possibility that the Eastern Buckwheat honey fermenting aroma could be blending with the normal honey fermentation aroma and giving you a very phenolic aroma and character. I do get something vaguely similar to that when I use super dark and heavy honeys in fermentations here. Especially in hot or hot and humid weather (yeah we get humidity in So Cal) so I'd honestly pull off some must and taste it before you get too freaked out. Also, let it finish and clear and then try it again before making any un-do-able decisions.

cheers,

Oskaar

afdoty
05-10-2009, 08:09 PM
I added a pound of buckwheat honey @ 1.013 and they next day it had a crusty foam and a strong smell of band-aids, I knew I should of did that. anyways it's at 1.020 now and I added some gelatin because I heard it can slow down "brett" infections. I also read that running it through an activated carbon filter can remove some of the smell.
Starting SG 1.073 Guess EG 1.000

Any suggestions?

I did 6 Gallons of Buck Weat in Oct 2008. It is a very freaky smelling honey! And yes, barn yard could describe it. After 6 months and a little oak, it's starting to behave itself. Is this odor something the started after you added the buckweat or was it something that was there before? What leads you to think it's an infection and not just the smell of the buckweat honey? That honey can be very very powerfull!

mts198
05-10-2009, 10:08 PM
Well, this is a bit late in the thread but no one asked you a couple of very simple things.

1. What your exact recipe and process has been along with any and all treatments (nutrient, stirring, pH, SG and other measurements)

2. What the ambient temperature of your fermentation area is along with the temperature of the fermenting must.

Also be aware that there is a very distinct possibility that the Eastern Buckwheat honey fermenting aroma could be blending with the normal honey fermentation aroma and giving you a very phenolic aroma and character. I do get something vaguely similar to that when I use super dark and heavy honeys in fermentations here. Especially in hot or hot and humid weather (yeah we get humidity in So Cal) so I'd honestly pull off some must and taste it before you get too freaked out. Also, let it finish and clear and then try it again before making any un-do-able decisions.

cheers,

Oskaar

This is what i have so far
temperature went from high 80s to 50s in a week very humid all week
Mead
5 pounds clove honey
1.5 teaspoons five spice
2 gallons spring water
1 pack red star cuvee
2 teaspoon yeast nutrient
1 teaspoon yeast energizer

one-step used @ beginning to clean everything
Starting SG 1.073 stirred in everything
Day 2 1.066
Day 3 1.059 1/8 yeast nutrient 1/8 yeast energizer added
Day 4 1.049
Day 5 1.035 faint banana smell dry ice alcohol
Day 6 1.025 FOAM stirred it back down used bleach on the spoon
Day 7 1.019 no foam 1 pound buckwheat honey stirred added
Day 7 evening after honey 1.028 guess, slight band-aid smell :(
Day 8 1.020 FOAM with dark crust mixed back in and added 1/4 gelatine 1/4 water, must is cold
Day 9 1.011 Used bleach to clean, No Foam, Band-aid smell and taste, warmed back up

mts198
05-10-2009, 10:38 PM
I did 6 Gallons of Buck Weat in Oct 2008. It is a very freaky smelling honey! And yes, barn yard could describe it. After 6 months and a little oak, it's starting to behave itself. Is this odor something the started after you added the buckweat or was it something that was there before? What leads you to think it's an infection and not just the smell of the buckweat honey? That honey can be very very powerfull!
I'm unsure what it is, that's why i'm asking but hears what I know or noticed rather. I know the buckwheat has a musky(barnyard) smell The must doesn't have a smell like that it's very distinctive as vinyl/band-aid like. It could be a mix of smells or an infection but unless I use a microscope (which I might do) I can't be sure and i'm relying on you guys to troubleshoot until then

akueck
05-10-2009, 11:21 PM
This is what i have so far
temperature went from high 80s to 50s in a week very humid all week


So, can we get more info on the temperature? What temp did it start at, when/how long was it at 80+? The high temperatures can cause some off-flavors to be produced. Large temperature swings can stress out the yeast too.

Going forward, one thing you should focus on is temperature control. A good way to keep things at a constant temperature is a large tub of water--the huge thermal mass of the water will slow down swings during the day and you can put frozen water bottles in the tub if things get too hot. If you can, keeping the must below 70-75 will avoid a lot of the yeast-derived off flavors including fusel alcohols and (depending on the strain) esters and phenols.

mts198
05-11-2009, 08:12 AM
So, can we get more info on the temperature? What temp did it start at, when/how long was it at 80+? The high temperatures can cause some off-flavors to be produced. Large temperature swings can stress out the yeast too.

Going forward, one thing you should focus on is temperature control. A good way to keep things at a constant temperature is a large tub of water--the huge thermal mass of the water will slow down swings during the day and you can put frozen water bottles in the tub if things get too hot. If you can, keeping the must below 70-75 will avoid a lot of the yeast-derived off flavors including fusel alcohols and (depending on the strain) esters and phenols.

I didn't really keep track of the temperature but it was low 80s for the first three days then a sharp drop to mid 60s for a couple days and high 50s for a day and high 60s for the rest of the time.

I understand what you are saying about the tub but I really don't have the room, I live in a very small apartment and the only spot for the fermenter is under the kitchen table (that sits two).So maybe a heat belt for the cold days?, There isn't much I can do about the heat.

Oh I forgot to say there isn't any sour taste or smell

Thanks for the help

huntfishtrap
05-11-2009, 10:08 AM
I understand what you are saying about the tub but I really don't have the room, I live in a very small apartment and the only spot for the fermenter is under the kitchen table (that sits two).

The eight gallon primary fermenters that come with wine kits will hold a 5 gal carboy and they are only a few inches bigger. You can stick a stick on thermometer on the side and drop a few ice cubes in if the temp goes up too much.

Good luck

Paul

mts198
05-11-2009, 11:33 AM
The eight gallon primary fermenters that come with wine kits will hold a 5 gal carboy and they are only a few inches bigger. You can stick a stick on thermometer on the side and drop a few ice cubes in if the temp goes up too much.

Good luck

Paul
That's a great idea Thanks man. I'll do that.

Medsen Fey
05-11-2009, 12:35 PM
High temperature fermentation, especially in the early part of fermentation will lead to production of some really stinky mead, especially above 80F. I have been running a high-temperature fermentation comparison - listed in the Patron's area entitled HotMead Yeast Test. Every single batch developed a strong medicinal smell (Band-Aids). The good news is that with aging, that Band-Aid character tends to fade and award winning mead can be produced in some cases.

So there is hope. This may not be some vile infection, but may just be the result of heat stressed yeast.

akueck
05-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Yeah I put my money on the high temps too, rather than infection. I have a friend who puts the carboys in her kitchen on a counter. They get wrapped in a blanket to keep out the light. The room has lots of windows and southern exposure and gets to the 80s even in the winter just from the sun. All her stuff (beer and mead) has some ester/phenol problems and the mead has the band-aid thing going on. BUT, with some aging they turn out pretty good. So, don't despair.

mts198
05-11-2009, 04:45 PM
Yeah I put my money on the high temps too, rather than infection. I have a friend who puts the carboys in her kitchen on a counter. They get wrapped in a blanket to keep out the light. The room has lots of windows and southern exposure and gets to the 80s even in the winter just from the sun. All her stuff (beer and mead) has some ester/phenol problems and the mead has the band-aid thing going on. BUT, with some aging they turn out pretty good. So, don't despair.

That's great to hear guys!
I was curious and ran a one bottle through an activated carbon and .30 micron filter and there was no smell at all, it took out ALL the stinky stuff! I'm going to backsweeten this bottle and add the spices back in. I'll wait till everything is done in the secondary and on bottling i'll do the same with all them, then age it.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/mts198/meadfiltered.jpg