PDA

View Full Version : Information/Definitions of Polish Meads.........



fatbloke
12-05-2009, 08:35 AM
Firstly, I'd like to thank male (Marek) for posting the link to the quoted document in this thread (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15337).

Now, I'd also like to point out, that to understand the document, I had to run it through the "google translator", because I don't speak the Polish required to understand it in it's original form.

Additionally, because of the way google works, I had to copy and paste the text, but then to edit it to remove the Polish language sections (as best as I could), to make it more understandable to a larger number of members here at gotmead. The translation isn't brilliant i.e. as clear and straight forward as possible, but again, that'll be because of the way it's been processed by the google translator facility and is in no way, meant to show any disrespect to Polish or Polish speaking members here (or anywhere else for that matter).

I just thought it of sufficient interest, having read a little of Polish type meads to be worth the effort and hope that I haven't caused any offence to anyone.

So:



Definitions
Editor: patricus
21.03.2005
Definition
Mead is an alcoholic beverage resulting from the alcoholic fermentation of the wort (that honey diluted with water). Wort may be an additional dressing of herbs, hops, roots or fruit juice.
Division of mead
Depending on how the preparation of the wort or the additives used meads can be divided in many different ways.
1) The division, depending on the preparation of the wort:
• Honey saturated, that is, those whose wort boil,
• Honey niesycone (natural), or those which do not boil.
Many of the old authorities (eg T. Ciesielski) for mead drinks accounted for just saturated. Also in our association can be found as some supporters and others drinks. Many sources give the saturated honey taste better, and niesycone have a better flavor. If we are at the disposal of high-quality honey, I propose to prepare wort niesyconą, having worse sorts of honey, honey, you can cook. Syceniu its decision on whether or not, may also be dependent on the type of honey which we prepare. Honey, fruit will be better niesycone, honey spicy taste better saturated.
2) The division, depending on the density of the wort.
• Półtorak: 1 part by volume of honey and 0.5 parts by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 57-66. Maturation of about 10 years.
• Dwójniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 1 part by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 45-53. Maturation of approximately 5 years.
• Trójniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 2 parts water by volume. The density of the wort BLG 32-37. Maturation of about 2-3 years.
• Czwórniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 3 parts by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 25-29. Maturation about a year.
The above maturity periods are recommended as a minimum by well-known personalities. As experience shows, however, that a particular fruit honeys are ready to drink much sooner.
Given name is the only officially approved names for the honey trade. In practice, however, such as producing honey wort with a density of 40 BLG, we can use the name półdwójniak. Similarly, for the honey and the trójniak czwórniak - półtrójniak.
3) The division, depending on the additives used.
• Natural Honey: without using any additives.
• Honey Fruit: some of the water was replaced with fruit juice.
• Honey-Herb Korzenno: prepared with spices.
Some authors distinguish a category of honeys hop - which uses only hop.
For the curious below the statutory requirements placed on manufacturers of commercial meads (content of acids, sugars, alcohol, etc.).
According to the Regulation of the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development dated 4 February 2003., Meads:
1) are:
a) miodowowinny flavor, harmonized with the flavors of juice used, free of foreign smell - in a honey meads and grape fruit,
b) miodowowinny flavor, harmonized with the taste of juice used, without foreign flavors - honey meads in grape and fruit
c) miodowowinny taste, enriched with the taste of typical spices that are used - in the honey meads and herbal spices, d) the total acidity expressed as malic acid in an amount from 3.5 to 8 grams per liter,
e) the volatile acidity expressed as acetic acid in an amount not greater than 1.4 grams per liter;
2) include:
a) reducing sugars after inversion:
From 35 to 90 grams per liter for Czwórniak,
From 65 to 120 grams per liter for trojniak,
From 175 to 230 grams per liter for dwójniak ',
More than 300 grams per liter in the case and half,
b) ethyl alcohol, multiplied by 18 and accumulated sugar content of not less than the following values:
- 240 - in the case Czwórniak,
- 323 - in the case trojniak,
- 490 - in the case dwójniak ',
- 600 - in the case and half,
c) ethyl alcohol in quantities:
- From 9 to 12% by volume in the case Czwórniak,
- From 12 to 15% by volume in the case trojniak,
- From 15 to 18% by volume in the case of 'dwójniak and and half,
d) the sugar extract in an amount not less than:
- 15 grams per liter for Czwórniak,
- 20 grams per liter for trojniak, Czwórniak grape and fruit
- 25 grams per liter in the case of 'dwójniak, Trójniak grape and fruit
- 30 grams per liter in the case and half, 'dwójniak grape and fruit
- 35 grams per liter and half in the case of grape and fruit
e) the ash content of not less than 1.3 grams per liter in the case of mead and grape fruit.


So, I don't for the minute, claim to fully understand all of the document, but as there does seem to be a need for more Polish language documentation about mead and mead making, being translated into english (mainly because there appears to be a huge amount of info that we might be missing out on, and the huge amount of info that is probably available.The mead makers of Poland having a vast expertise in making a style of mead that most of us might not be familiar with).

If any Polish or Polish speakers, could make a better/clearer to understand of the original document (http://wino.org.pl/content/view/57/88/), rather than just relying on the google translation, then that would also be brilliant.

Again, thanks again, to male (Marek) for posting the original link. Brilliant.

regards

fatbloke......

fatbloke
12-05-2009, 08:38 AM
So, the first part that's given me thought, is this:


• Półtorak: 1 part by volume of honey and 0.5 parts by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 57-66. Maturation of about 10 years.
• Dwójniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 1 part by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 45-53. Maturation of approximately 5 years.
• Trójniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 2 parts water by volume. The density of the wort BLG 32-37. Maturation of about 2-3 years.
• Czwórniak: 1 part by volume of honey and 3 parts by volume of water. The density of the wort BLG 25-29. Maturation about a year.

Not so much the name(s), or the volumes/quantity and maturing times, but where it says about "wort BLG" followed by some numbers, I'm presuming that is referring to "Brix" measurements ???

regards

fatbloke

male
12-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Yes, Blg equals Brix.

fatbloke
12-05-2009, 01:19 PM
Yes, Blg equals Brix.
Cheers Marek, that's brilliant.

Comical really, I could drive to the Polish border in about 7 hours, but I've never seen any of the Polish meads for sale here in the UK, even the shops that cater for the relatively new Polish communities........

Though I don't know why that might be......

regards

fatbloke

male
12-05-2009, 01:27 PM
Cheers Marek, that's brilliant.

Comical really, I could drive to the Polish border in about 7 hours, but I've never seen any of the Polish meads for sale here.

fatbloke

Fatbloke, you can fly to Wrocław and 2 hours later we will try a lot of Polish meads.:)

Marek

wayneb
12-05-2009, 02:01 PM
This is one case where I wish that I was closer (geographically) to you guys! I'd love to spend a day tasting Polish meads in Poland... but the travel time (and cost) from N. America don't allow me to do it (at least at this point in time).

FB, if I get enough free time over the holidays I'll gladly provide that more consistent translation. I spent enough time in Polish Catholic parochial schools as a kid to at least come away with a rudimentary ability to read documents, though I'd never feel comfortable trying to speak Polish to anyone outside my family! :o

male
12-05-2009, 02:09 PM
Don't worry Wayne, I'm a very patient boy.

sandman
12-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Marek, are there any good sledding locations anywhere near your place? I'm trying to get my kids to some good sledding snow this winter sometime and that would be a great way to get us there to visit and share some of those good Polish meads sooner. ;D

male
12-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Rob, they can sledge here almost all the year http://www.kolorowa.pl/?lang=pl. We have also a very good place for nordic skiing in Jakuszyce.

keepitlow
12-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the info on Polish meads.

I ordered 9 sample bottles of various varieties and it will be nice to have some reference on what they are. When you ask the salespeople they know nothing about them.

I wonder why the Polish people are so big on mead and why not any of the other European countries?

The Polish mead makers seem to like woven bottle covers too!

http://www.piwostawski.us/images/MIody_Medal_news.jpg

Smarrikĺka
12-27-2009, 01:11 PM
Since 2007 the EU has introduced strict definitions for what may call itself Czwórniak, Trójniak, Dwójniak and Półtorak. I figured that maybe links to those might be appropiate in this thread.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:266:0027:0032:EN:PDF
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:265:0029:0034:EN:PDF
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:268:0022:0027:EN:PDF
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:267:0040:0045:EN:PDF

wayneb
12-27-2009, 02:45 PM
Smarrikĺka, this is excellent data, since the definitions specify not only the proper ratios of honey to water for these classifications of mead, but also the meadmaking process to be employed. Thanks for the links!

TXBeowulf
12-27-2009, 07:00 PM
"The use of preservatives, stabilisers, and artificial colourings and flavourings is prohibited in the production of x" - From each of the linked documents.

So does that mean you can't use campden or sulphites to stabilize the fermentation of the mead and still call it Czwórniak, Trójniak, Dwójniak or Półtorak?

Also, are the "parts" by weight or volume? I would hope by weight...

Smarrikĺka
12-27-2009, 07:24 PM
I think it's pretty clear that any additions of sulphites for the purpose of stabalising or preserving is not allowed.


Also, are the "parts" by weight or volume? I would hope by weight...

That's a pretty good question. There is specifications on how much residual sugar is required for each kind, so I guess it's within those definitions you would know exactly how much honey you'd have to use.

Medsen Fey
12-28-2009, 12:54 PM
Also, are the "parts" by weight or volume? I would hope by weight...

With most liquids, a mixture based on parts is done by volume - its a lot simpler that way. If you tried to to do it based on weight, it wouldn't generate the appropriate gravity. According to the information:

total sugar (g) plus actual alcohol content (% vol.) multiplied by 18: min. 240 g,

240 g/L is about a gravity of 1.090 as your minimum. Using 12 pounds of honey and 36 pounds of water (4.3 gallons) you'd end up with a starting gravity of around 1.083 and wouldn't have enough to produce the necessary amount of alcohol and residual sugar. Using 12 pounds of honey (1 gallon) in a 4 gallon batch, gives about 3 pounds per gallon and a gravity of 1.105-1.110 which should be in the right range.


Smarrikĺka, that is really interesting information - even some history of mead making in Poland! I'm still a bit perplexed as to how to make a sweet mead starting with 12 pounds in 4 gallons using a yeast they describe as:



High-attenuation mead yeast — suitable for attenuation of high extracts in pitched wort.


What is the technique used to prevent this mead from going dry (or worse yet - bottle bombs) given no stabilizers? I suppose if you didn't add any nutrients or adjustments to the pH you could end sweet, but I'm not sure you would end at a consistent level. Long aging might eliminate the refermentation issue, but I'm curious to know how they accomplish ending sweet.

Medsen :icon_scratch:

TXBeowulf
12-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Hmm...

That would put the O.G. of a batch of Półtorak at 1.292, if I used the mead calculator correctly. How would you get that to ferment, and if you did, what would you use it for aside from a topping for biscuits?

Smarrikĺka
12-28-2009, 01:26 PM
I believe you find your answers here:

Stage 7
Flavour-adjustment (composition) — this stage concerns the preparation of a final product having the
organoleptic and physico-chemical properties appropriate to ‘czwórniak’, as specified in point 3.5 —
Description of the agricultural product or foodstuff. In order to ensure that the required parameters are
attained, it is possible to correct the organoleptic and physico-chemical properties by:
— adding honey to sweeten the mead,
— adding herbs and spices.
The aim of this stage is to obtain a product with the characteristic ‘czwórniak’ bouquet.


Stage 8
Pouring into unit containers at a temperature of 55-60 °C. It is recommended that ‘czwórniak’ be
presented in traditional packaging, such as: carboys, ceramic containers or oak barrels.

male
12-28-2009, 01:34 PM
Hmm...

That would put the O.G. of a batch of Półtorak at 1.292


— reducing sugars after inversion: > 300 g/l,

— total sugar (g) plus actual alcohol content (% vol.) multiplied by 18: min. 600 g,
— alcohol: 15-18 % vol.

From my calculations it is 1,23.

TXBeowulf
12-28-2009, 01:40 PM
I just used the mead calculator, plugged in 12 pounds of honey (1 gallon) for fermentable #1, checked Target Volume with 1.5 gallons, and hit calculate.

I'm willing to admit that I may not have used the thing properly, but there you have it.

The SG comes out to 1.292, with a final abv of 40.28%, not that you would actually be able to get that out of any yeast...

Smarrikĺka
12-28-2009, 01:43 PM
Well, I guess 1.23 would be the absolute minimum allowed for it to be able to be called Poltorak, while 1.292 would be what you get if you actually mix 2/3 honey with 1/3 water by volume.

Medsen Fey
12-28-2009, 01:44 PM
Hmm...

That would put the O.G. of a batch of Półtorak at 1.292, if I used the mead calculator correctly. How would you get that to ferment, and if you did, what would you use it for aside from a topping for biscuits?

Very slow sipping! ;D

That gravity is about right, but the answer is you wouldn't try to start fermenting it at that gravity as it would choke the yeast. You start at a lower gravity and keep adding honey until you are there. Residual sugar of at least 300 g/L means enough for a gravity of 1.110 when finished. That's sweet!

Smarrikĺka, I still don't know how the added honey doesn't ferment. If keeping it cool is part of the answer, what happens when these bottles warm up?

TXBeowulf
12-28-2009, 01:48 PM
Very slow sipping! ;D

That gravity is about right, but the answer is you wouldn't try to start fermenting it at that gravity as it would choke the yeast. You start at a lower gravity and keep adding honey until you are there. Residual sugar of at least 300 g/L means enough for a gravity of 1.110 when finished. That's sweet!

Smarrikĺka, I still don't know how the added honey doesn't ferment. If keeping it cool is part of the answer, what happens when these bottles warm up?

I see what you did thar!

You went around the (high S.G.) wall instead of trying to go through it :p

Smarrikĺka
12-28-2009, 01:49 PM
Smarrikĺka, I still don't know how the added honey doesn't ferment. If keeping it cool is part of the answer, what happens when these bottles warm up?

The answer is that they probably do bottling right after the final sweetening adjustments and heat it up to 55-60 C in order to kill the yeast and stabalize it in combination with that.

I tend to notice quite a difference in the percieved dry/sweetness in different bottles of Korzenny though. And Apis specification of the residual sugar tends to be a range, instead of a set number.

wayneb
12-28-2009, 01:57 PM
To add to what Smarrikĺka said, here is a quote from the process definition for a trójniak, in the EU application document:


During ageing it is possible to carry out operations
such as pasteurisation and filtration.

So, filtration and/or pasteurization are permitted. I suppose it is up to the meadmaker as to which one to employ. I imagine that "traditional" techniques, i.e. those going back centuries, didn't employ anything more than extended aging and re-racking.

Medsen Fey
12-28-2009, 02:02 PM
The answer is that they probably do bottling right after the final sweetening adjustments and heat it up to 55-60 C in order to kill the yeast and stabalize it in combination with that.


Duhh! :sign12:

I can be just stupid at times. I read 55-60 and I'm thinking in Fahrenheit not Celsius. A temperature of 60 C will pasteurize them and no stabilizers would be needed. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!

wayneb
12-28-2009, 02:09 PM
Additional note - now that I've read the text for all these applications, it is interesting to note that dwojniaks and półtoraks are explicitly NOT pasteurized as part of bottling.

I find that interesting since I have detected an element of "cooked" flavor in all Polish meads I've tasted that are lower in "concentration" than dwojniak. I attributed that to the aging characteristics of meads with lower residual sugar concentrations, but in fact it might be attributable to a processing step that is different for the lower strength meads.

Smarrikĺka
12-28-2009, 02:17 PM
it is interesting to note that dwojniaks and półtoraks are explicitly NOT pasteurized as part of bottling.

Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing the observation.

Medsen Fey
12-28-2009, 02:18 PM
That makes some sense. At the higher levels of alcohol and residual sugar the yeast will be inhibited and no stabilization would be needed. Nothing is going to grow or ferment in a batch with 16-18% ABV and sugar of 300 g/L.

Medsen Fey
12-28-2009, 05:36 PM
I read the półtorak info and I noticed two things. They do say that filtration and pasteurization are permitted. But as said before, pasteurization would not be needed for a mead like this, especially given the 3 years of aging required.




During aging it is possible to carry out operations such as pasteurisation and filtration. At this stage it is possible to add the remaining quantity of honey to achieve the required proportion in

‘półtorak’



Also, it also caught my eye that półtorak and dwójniak meads can be fortified, and it does not specify what the source of the alcohol must be (grains, grapes, fruits, honey, etc). Clearly that is another way of getting around difficult fermentation.




it is possible to correct the organoleptic and physico-chemical properties by:
— adding honey to sweeten the mead,



— adding herbs and spices,


— adding ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin.

wayneb
12-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Ahh - I missed that fortification note. Good catch! There sure is a lot of information combined in each of these applications, and it shows that the existing BJCP definitions of mead are somewhat at odds with Polish commercial meadmaking practice and European Union definitions, at least as far as fortifying a beverage that can still legally be called "mead" is concerned. So the commercial folks in Europe have more leeway than we, as hobbyist meadmakers do -- at least those of us over here in N. America.

Smarrikĺka
12-28-2009, 06:41 PM
So the commercial folks in Europe have more leeway than we, as hobbyist meadmakers do -- at least those of us over here in N. America.

I'm not sure about that. At least not if you want to call it one of the names within the Polish tradition. Sure you can fortify with "ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin" (in Dwojniak/Poltorak only) if you want to, but there's also a lot of things that you would have to do (such as a specific amount of aging required), or would not be allowed to do (such as adding sulfites).

If you on the other hand mean in terms of just being able to use the term mead, then you're absolutely right, becaue for that there's no real rules established.

fatbloke
12-29-2009, 06:16 AM
Ahh - I missed that fortification note. Good catch! There sure is a lot of information combined in each of these applications, and it shows that the existing BJCP definitions of mead are somewhat at odds with Polish commercial meadmaking practice and European Union definitions, at least as far as fortifying a beverage that can still legally be called "mead" is concerned. So the commercial folks in Europe have more leeway than we, as hobbyist meadmakers do -- at least those of us over here in N. America.


I'm not sure about that. At least not if you want to call it one of the names within the Polish tradition. Sure you can fortify with "ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin" (in Dwojniak/Poltorak only) if you want to, but there's also a lot of things that you would have to do (such as a specific amount of aging required), or would not be allowed to do (such as adding sulfites).

If you on the other hand mean in terms of just being able to use the term mead, then you're absolutely right, because for that there's no real rules established.
no, but you both should remember. The EU can be a very large, blunt implement.

It's where you get the "labelling bureaucrats" poking their noses in and come up with some crap like, you can use the original methods and techniques if the mead is produced in the country of origin - if it's available for EU wide consumption, then it must also be labelled as "mead 18" i.e. the word mead followed by the % ABV but can also have a "local" name to explain to the citizens in the country of origin. It must also include on the label that if it's had any other additives that aren't derived purely from the fermentation of the original mix of water, flavouring and sweetening elements. etc etc etc!

As I say, very blunt instrument.

If there aren't any particular rules but there are "vested interests", then "they" will often convince someone within the EU organisation to come up with some.

The most recent case I can think of being the Spanish trying to (IMO) mis-appropriate the word "Brandy". So that anything that is just called "brandy" must only be made from grape based musts/wines. The UK government was just going to "rubber stamp" this, until almost at the last moment, the bloke who makes brandy from cider (that's hard cider to you lot in the US) went charging in to get an exception from that ruling. He now gets to sell his product as "cider brandy". Mainly because he can't (legally) call it Calvados - which to me, is fair enough, calvados has genuine regional connotations.

The Spanish lobby group should have been told where to go! After all, the word Brandy isn't actually a word, certainly not a spanish one. It's an english contraction of the original Dutch/Flemish term "brandt wijn" or burnt wine.

Hopefully the above example of a commercial related group using legislation to try and steal a word or term from an entirely different language, for commercial purposes, is pretty typical of some items that come within the EU remit.

Unfortunately for Poland, the production of alcoholic beverages, does, in part, do just that. It might not be a problem yet, but it's definitely one that's sitting on the sidelines waiting for someone to "stir it up"......

wayneb
12-29-2009, 12:37 PM
Billed as a method to foster economic cooperation and reduce tensions amongst the constituent nations, it truly is a wonder that the EU hasn't started any wars between members... yet! ;D