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chode720
09-13-2010, 12:20 PM
I am planning on brewing my first cyser in a bit and am planning on adding some DME to the recipe as well. I am a quite experience homebrewer, but I brew all grain and dont use DME much anymore. However, my understanding is that it has to be boiled for 5-10 min to sanitize.

My recipe does not have any water in it, just cider, but I do not want to boil it. I am also planning to add spices to the cyser, so my plan was to heat a gallon of the cider to around 170 and steep the spices from there. If I heat the cider to around 170 then add the DME and spices and steep between 160-170 for around 30 min, would that do the trick?

Thoughts from anyone with more experience?

jpeshek
09-13-2010, 01:55 PM
I know that with mead you only need the water to be at 160 degrees for 30 minutes for sterilization, so there should be no problem in your situation also.

chode720
09-13-2010, 02:12 PM
Right, but with beer brewing there are benefits & necessary reactions that come from the boil, but I am wondering if anyone who has made a mead (braggot) with DME can shed some light on the best way to handle it

AToE
09-13-2010, 02:22 PM
I know that with mead you only need the water to be at 160 degrees for 30 minutes for sterilization, so there should be no problem in your situation also.

Most meadmakers nowadays do not boil OR pastuerize their must, it is unnecessary and robs the mead of arome. Several people here are currently doing side by side indentical batches (boil/heat vs the modern no-heat method) to fully examine the differences in the final product.

I can vouch that it is 100% not needed to sterilize the honey, honey already kills pretty much everything that lives in it, and many yeast strains are good at wiping out any competition anyways. I've done 40 batches with no-heat and haven't had a single case of spoilage.


Right, but with beer brewing there are benefits & necessary reactions that come from the boil, but I am wondering if anyone who has made a mead (braggot) with DME can shed some light on the best way to handle it

I don't have a pile of experience with DME, but what I would do is do a small volume boil with as little juice as possible, just whatever is necessary to dissolve the DME. I would also keep the boil shorter to minimze damage to the juice, but I don't know how long it would need to be to get whatever effect you're looking for in that DME.

icedmetal
09-13-2010, 03:18 PM
If it were me, I'd boil a small amount of water, dissolve the DME in that, then add it to my cider. No way you'd get me to heat cider, EVER. The stuff is just too good raw to ruin it, and I'd rather dilute (very sparingly!) then risk harming the flavor profile.

fathand
09-13-2010, 03:25 PM
May I ask what your reason is for adding DME?

AToE
09-13-2010, 03:46 PM
If it were me, I'd boil a small amount of water, dissolve the DME in that, then add it to my cider. No way you'd get me to heat cider, EVER. The stuff is just too good raw to ruin it, and I'd rather dilute (very sparingly!) then risk harming the flavor profile.

That sounds like a good idea too - one could even do this and then boil/reduce it down as low as seemed sane, then once it cools (probably into a goo) this could be dissolved in the apple juice.

fatbloke
09-13-2010, 04:33 PM
How about this then.........

Prep the DME however you want........ and it doesn't matter whether the Apple juice is clear or cloudy (sorry, but it ain't cider till its been fermented.......), if you heat it, you'll end up with a cooked taste to it and probably have pectin problems.

So I'd go with the water and DME suggestion and then let it cool before adding it to the must.

regards

fatbloke

Medsen Fey
09-13-2010, 05:13 PM
For reference the NewBee guide has information on the time needed for pasteurization (http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=426&Itemid=14). At 160 F it only requires a few seconds, not that I would pasteurize either honey or apple juice.

When using DME it is not necessary to boil it. In making beer the boiling is done primarily for the hops extraction. When using grains for brewing, you steep the grains in hot (not boiling) water to allow the enzymes to break down the starches into fermentable sugars - this is called mashing. When this liquid is concentrated to a syrupy consistency, you have liquid malt extract, and if it is full dehydrated, you get DME. The DME has already gone through the process of having the sugars made into a fermentable form, so all you need to do is mix it into solution (a little warm water wouldn't hurt) and let it ferment.

AToE
09-13-2010, 05:30 PM
That's what I thought, but I was unsure if maybe something further happened after being diluted and boiled.

akueck
09-14-2010, 01:13 AM
Medsen's got it. DME is done, all you can do to it now is kettle caramelization. Sterilizing it by boiling doesn't seem necessary, but if you must I'd go the mix-with-water route.

chode720
09-14-2010, 12:54 PM
Right, I knew all of that about DME. My main concern was about what would happen to the cider (or juice as some prefer :-) ) if it was heated for an extended period, especially with steeping some spices. Sounds like I will be mixing the DME with hot water and steeping the spices in there, then adding that to the cider and honey

Medsen Fey
09-14-2010, 01:11 PM
If you do heat apple juice (happy now John? :p ) one thing to remember is that it will set the pectins and may lead to a haze unless pectic enzyme is added.

Steeping the spices is certainly an option, though if you plan to leave them in the batch, it probably isn't a requirement. I sometime make a "spice tea" to add, but even without heating the time sitting in an alcohol solution will generally extract all the good stuff. Making a spice tincture with grain alcohol also works for extracting without heat. If you are using woody spices, the boiling may be essential.

chode720
09-14-2010, 01:25 PM
Medsen, that was my thought on the pectin (I do have pectic enzyme at home). I thought I heard somewhere that cider (aka unfiltered juice) had pectins and needed the enzyme regardless.

I was planning on steeping them, just b/c I am looking for the cooked aspect. I am making a cyser and was hoping to get a bit of the apple pie/dessert characteristic by having the spices and having it finish around 1.01

fatbloke
09-14-2010, 05:29 PM
Medsen, that was my thought on the pectin (I do have pectic enzyme at home). I thought I heard somewhere that cider (aka unfiltered juice) had pectins and needed the enzyme regardless.

I was planning on steeping them, just b/c I am looking for the cooked aspect. I am making a cyser and was hoping to get a bit of the apple pie/dessert characteristic by having the spices and having it finish around 1.01
Well, don't forget, you can just make the cyser "normally" and then afterwards, just steep the spices in that, cold.......

Most of the spice extracts are done with alcohol. You can do the same i.e. put some 40% vodka in a jar and then put the spice into that and leave it.

That'd get my vote, as you have greater control over the spice flavour that you're adding and get the desired amount of the target flavour......

whereas, spices added in any other way can be rather "guesstimate" and as the alcohol develops, can strip a bit more of the flavour out than you want - read up the JAO recipe and Joes comments about cloves.......

Of course, if the desired spice is a bit big (thinking nutmeg here) you can just grate it up and then soak it in alcohol to extract the flavours.

regards

fatbloke

p.s. @ Medsen, yes, that's better. I just can't abide misuse of words, terms, etc. A great believer in "if you can't use it properly, don't use it at all" (and yes, you're all forgiven the occasional "poor" and/or incorrect spelling, but incorrect usage of whole words ? never ;) )

akueck
09-14-2010, 08:08 PM
I'm in the "cider is fermented juice" camp as well. People still look at me funny, perhaps it's time to hop over to the other side of the pond?

AToE
09-14-2010, 08:26 PM
I'm in the "cider is fermented juice" camp as well. People still look at me funny, perhaps it's time to hop over to the other side of the pond?

You can always move north! ;)

(Though many people here do refer to hot spiced apple juice as cider too...)