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TheAlchemist
04-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Curious:

Among the mazers that use this site, how many of y'all are lefties?

wildoates
04-10-2011, 09:14 PM
Not me! My politics aren't even lefty. :)

oldwhiskers
04-10-2011, 10:36 PM
Not me! My politics aren't even lefty. :)

Second that!

AToE
04-11-2011, 01:38 AM
Reverse that! ;)

Now that I'm being confusing, not a lefty when it comes to which hand I use for stuff!

Tiwas
04-11-2011, 02:01 AM
I'm ambidextrous. Doesn't matter to me - it's just which way I learn it. Used to be a menace in the ring when I did kickboxing. Started out right handed and switched when I got my opponent rocked :D

mmclean
04-11-2011, 10:47 AM
Not me! My politics aren't even lefty. :)

I am right, right and right.

Right handed, right wing, and just plain right. ;D

Chevette Girl
04-11-2011, 10:48 AM
Lefty-dominant, ambi-learned because of so much stuff that just doesn't work lefty... My mom is righty-dominant ambi, my dad was full lefty, I have an aunt and an uncle on mom's side who are full lefties so it runs in the family...

I can do most things passably with either hand, can't cut a straight line using scissors or shoot a pool ball straight with either hand, I can sew or crochet with either hand, I peel carrots lefty and potatoes righty (don't ask, doesn't make sense to me either) and if I accidentally pick up a pen to write something with my right hand, it comes out mirror-image. My left hand can't figure out the mouse buttons (left-click vs right-click is apparently not intuitive when you switch, so much death in Minesweeper!) but my right hand's kind of klutzy so my preference is a right-handed fingers-trackball because my right thumb isn't smart enough to work a trackball all by itself... Could never make up my mind for high-jump, long jump or baseball which side was dominant, lefty for golf, righty for two-handed sword (because I learned a Japanese style where there allegedly ARE no lefties), lefty for sword-and-shield, ambi for one-handed sword, no shield...

At university it looked like we had slightly higher than the expected 10% southpaws in the engineering program. Either that or a bunch of us southpaws seemed to hang around in the same crew. <shrug>

Tiwas
04-11-2011, 11:40 AM
[COLOR="Purple"] I peel carrots lefty and potatoes righty

*lol* I peel potatoes righty, eat (usually) lefty, but if my food's on the wrong side of the plate I just switch. Easier than turning the plate :D

Medsen Fey
04-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Even when I'm wrong, I'm right! :)

wildoates
04-11-2011, 01:02 PM
*lol* I peel potatoes righty, eat (usually) lefty, but if my food's on the wrong side of the plate I just switch. Easier than turning the plate :D

Man, I thought I was lazy. :)


But my dad was like that too--used both hands, for different things, but mostly righty.

wayneb
04-11-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm fairly ambi - even through decades of "Right" programming. ;D I started out as a left dominant person and even learned to print with my left hand. Then, early into 1st grade I got my left hand caught in a trap door (OUCH! I still remember the intensity of that pain!!), and two smashed fingers later (which took several months to heal up to the point where I was comfortable grasping things again), I had to re-learn how to print/write. After that it was most things, including eating, left handed - but anything with a pen or pencil, right handed.

mmclean
04-11-2011, 01:56 PM
Even when I'm wrong, I'm right! :)

I thought I was wrong once, but discovered I was mistaken.

Smarrikåka
04-11-2011, 02:06 PM
I thought I was wrong once, but discovered I was mistaken.

But...if you thought you were wrong, but was mistaken, then you were wrong about thinking you were wrong...though if that's true that means that you were right about thinking you were wrong, and your discovery was the mistake.

PS If you found this confusing, then you are right. DS

Noe Palacios
04-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Not a lefty when it comes to which hand I use for stuff!

Me too

... in politics ... it depends whose the best lies are.

skunkboy
04-11-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm a temporary lefty until my right thumb heals ... :-)

havoc64
04-11-2011, 05:40 PM
I am a lefty, all the way, Write, shoot, eat, bat and throw all left handed.

My Grandmother, who was left handed, used to tell me this.

"God could only create so many perfect people, he made everyone else right-handed"

I miss her...

mccann51
04-11-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm ambidextrous. Doesn't matter to me - it's just which way I learn it. Used to be a menace in the ring when I did kickboxing. Started out right handed and switched when I got my opponent rocked :D

It's funny how much it throws opponents off fighting southpaw.



My parents saw I was favoring my left hand and had me start to use my right hand; it's a mixed bag which I favor now - I try to switch it up to keep the ol brain active - but I'd say I'm right-handed. Of course, I always take caution and imbibe alcohol with a drink in both hands.

TheAlchemist
04-11-2011, 07:41 PM
Rightie handed, except for eating which I do ambi-European style.
Leftie politics.
Dad's a southpaw.
Since it's genetic, I guess that means I have one left hand!

Displaced Hick
04-11-2011, 08:01 PM
Left handed in everything except using a mouse. Even learned to read playing cards upside down because of it:) which makes reading what someone else is writing very easy.

Dan McFeeley
04-12-2011, 12:25 AM
I'm pretty much a lefty, but I think most of us are ambidexterous to some degree.

--

Tiwas
04-12-2011, 02:56 AM
Even when I'm wrong, I'm right! :)

I'm mainly using the right hand...which is the left one O0

PitBull
04-12-2011, 08:17 AM
Left-handed? Right-handed?

I just think there are waaaay too many people who are UNDERHANDED!

wayneb
04-12-2011, 04:32 PM
I just think there are waaaay too many people who are UNDERHANDED!
Gotta hand it to you, puns are fun! (Now duck - they'll start flying soon...)

Dan McFeeley
04-12-2011, 05:40 PM
Had to reply to this one, didn't want to be left out in the cold. ;D
--

TheAlchemist
04-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Had to reply to this one, didn't want to be left out in the cold. ;D
--

Ha!

Right on, buddy!

Medsen Fey
04-12-2011, 07:15 PM
Man-o-man. We're in trouble now.

wayneb
04-13-2011, 10:54 AM
Like the way you're handy with other languages! ;)

wildoates
04-13-2011, 01:20 PM
It does seem like there're a disproportionate number of southpaws here, though. What's the percentage in the population?

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 01:25 PM
It does seem like there're a disproportionate number of southpaws here, though. What's the percentage in the population?

It think here we're running about 25-50% southpaws. Left handedness is a recessive genetic trait with a frequency about in the redheadedness range (my off-hand guess), so there seems to be a disproportinate leftleaning here compared to the general population.

Speaking of which, looks like we have a disproportiante number of redheads, too...

wildoates
04-13-2011, 01:31 PM
It think here we're running about 25-50% southpaws. Left handedness is a recessive genetic trait with a frequency about in the redheadedness range (my off-hand guess), so there seems to be a disproportinate leftleaning here compared to the general population.

Speaking of which, looks like we have a disproportiante number of redheads, too...

Must be that latent Viking heritage. :)

All redheads should make as many babies as they possibly can to keep that phenotype from going extinct as it's rumored to do in the next couple of hundred years.

;)

AToE
04-13-2011, 01:38 PM
I don't think I've ever seen as many redheads and redbeards as I did at the Mazer Cup, totally weird!

Chevette Girl
04-13-2011, 02:02 PM
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handedness), we're about 11% of the population.

Red-heads worldwide are apparently 1-2% and higher in Northern and Western Europeans, 2-6%, again, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair)...

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 02:05 PM
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handedness), we're about 11% of the population.



Lefties, you mean?

Thanks for looking that up.

Does this mean mazers would make good US Presidents?

wildoates
04-13-2011, 02:27 PM
Okay, Tiwas, looks like you need to add a poll to this thread. :)

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 02:30 PM
Okay, Tiwas, looks like you need to add a poll to this thread. :)

Speaking of adding a poll, how many of y'all are redheads? Red beards?

AToE
04-13-2011, 02:33 PM
Red-heads worldwide are apparently 1-2% and higher in Northern and Western Europeans, 2-6%, again, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair)... [/COLOR]

Depends what kind of redhead we're talking about too - the European kind(s) of redheads are what we're used to seeing, and seems to be all that wiki article covers - but there are dark skinned people with red hair too, it's typically a darker, more bronze-less copper coloured hair, but I have seen it get pretty close to what Europeans have. I'm not sure about in Africa, Mainland Asia, and North/South America - but I'm pretty sure Oceana has some redheaded native peoples, and I know for sure India does.

I get Indian people coming up to me asking if I've dyed my hair, they all say they have family members with the exact same hair colour.

But for some reason we never really hear about all the dark skinned redheads, just us pale Europeans. Kinda weird.

I wonder if it's even the same genetics that cause it at all in Indians... maybe, maybe not. Indians share a closer relationship (linguistically and I presume genetically) to Europeans than pretty much any other ethnicities on the planet so it might make sense if it was the same genetics.

I have seen redheaded "african" people, but I'm pretty sure they were all half-european.

I should go do some research into this, I realize I don't really know what I'm talking about...

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 02:47 PM
Some nutritional deficiencies can turn otherwise brunette hair "red" (you can sometimes see this when someone goes "vegan" and ceases to take any animal protien) and some chemo can change the texture and color of the hair that returns post chemo...

Medsen Fey
04-13-2011, 02:49 PM
How did I manage to fall in with so many leftists? :icon_scratch:

Edit - Red leftists at that!

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 02:50 PM
How did I manage to fall in with so many leftists? :icon_scratch:

At least we're not gorillas!

Chevette Girl
04-13-2011, 02:51 PM
I saved a lock of my own hair from quite some time ago (before these white invaders) and last I looked, it's running to reddish, sort of similar to the in-between colour my white hairs will take on if they've been dyed dark and it doesn't stay, or the colour my dark hair gets if I let it get too much sun in summer.

AToE
04-13-2011, 03:05 PM
Some nutritional deficiencies can turn otherwise brunette hair "red" (you can sometimes see this when someone goes "vegan" and ceases to take any animal protien) and some chemo can change the texture and color of the hair that returns post chemo...

I've heard of medical problems turning hair red, but never from going vegan!

(very few vegans are nutrient difficient - other than iron and calcium, but even then they're usually pretty on top of just eating more green leafy veggies to get that iron and calcium. Vegitarians on the other hand often eat mostly junk food and are often as nutrient deprived as most meat eating north americans.)

Not taking in animal protien doesn't matter, all those same amino acids are available in plants, you just have to mix and match plants to get them all. That said, calcium and iron, as previously mentioned, which in most people's diets come from red meat and milk products, those can be lacking in a vegan diet.

AToE
04-13-2011, 03:06 PM
How did I manage to fall in with so many leftists? :icon_scratch:

Edit - Red leftists at that!

I call myself centerist... but "center" in Canada is probably a little to the left when compared to US politics!

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 03:13 PM
...calcium and iron, as previously mentioned, which in most people's diets come from red meat and milk products, those can be lacking in a vegan diet.

Not to mention Vitamin B12

TheAlchemist
04-13-2011, 03:14 PM
I call myself centerist... but "center" in Canada is probably a little to the left when compared to US politics!

If I were a Canadian, I'd probably be a "centrist" too.

AToE
04-13-2011, 03:18 PM
Not to mention Vitamin B12

That's right, I forgot B12, which usually has to be taken as a supplement (my ex of 5 years is vegan, so I've become fairly well aquainted with the lifestyle!).

But, like I said to my grandma when she asked about my girlfriend being malnourished - vegans can potentially be short on a few key things, but everyone else tends to be short on the rest!

Chevette Girl
04-13-2011, 03:18 PM
I've heard of medical problems turning hair red, but never from going vegan!

Not taking in animal protien doesn't matter, all those same amino acids are available in plants, you just have to mix and match plants to get them all. That said, calcium and iron, as previously mentioned, which in most people's diets come from red meat and milk products, those can be lacking in a vegan diet.

A friend of mine who's been on prednisone since she was young of course ended up osteoporotic, and when she was on Fosamax (supposed to help bones reabsorb calcium) all was normal for the first few months but then her hair started growing in clear (no pigment) when the docs gave her a high calcium dose. The docs switched her off that a few months later so then she had this band of non-pigment growing out through her hair...

...and furthermore, YAY, Lefties for being in our right minds... :)

PitBull
04-13-2011, 07:21 PM
Speaking of adding a poll, how many of y'all are redheads? Red beards?
Don't forget the Rednecks. [That seems to run in families too!]

mccann51
04-13-2011, 08:57 PM
At least we're not gorillas!

Speak for yourself. Haha!

AToE
04-13-2011, 11:43 PM
??? I somehow have managed to not understand that "at least we're not gorillas" joke entirely! Seriously, I'm lost. But jokes become not funny if they're explained... so I'm screwed either way it seems. :(

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:14 AM
It does seem like there're a disproportionate number of southpaws here, though. What's the percentage in the population?

5-8 in the public in general (depending on the source), around 10+ in adults (not counting kids or elderly - I have no idea why there's such a large difference, but it seems we tend to die early...). If looking at people with IQs over 140 the number is closer to 30%. Does that mean we're smart? Any members of high IQ socoeties in here? :)

AToE
04-14-2011, 12:22 AM
Supposedly lefties tend to be better than normal musicians. I have no idea if there's even the slightest real evidence to back that up though! I can think of lots of great lefty musicians/writers, but of course I can also think of lots of right handed ones...

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 12:31 AM
5-8 in the public in general (depending on the source), around 10+ in adults (not counting kids or elderly - I have no idea why there's such a large difference, but it seems we tend to die early...). If looking at people with IQs over 140 the number is closer to 30%. Does that mean we're smart? Any members of high IQ socoeties in here? :)

I have heard statistics that we are more likely to succumb to accidental death than rihgt-handers (curse you, right-hand world!!)... but I think the reason the stats won't count the elderly is because we have no idea how many were beaten or coerced into switching hands in their early schooling because of the "sinister" stigma, and wouldn't count young children because they may not have developed a sidedness yet.

And though not a member of any society, I was in a program for gifted kids for most of my scholastic career prior to university. With a similar IQ to my brother, who was in special ed classes and I don't know if he finished high school. Learning disability. So I dunno if that counts for anything. All I got from the gifted program was a few good experiences to combat the feeling that I was bottom of the barrel of the smart kids. <shrug> I don't recall there being a disproportionate number of lefties in my year group, there were about 20 of us in the program and it was something I watched for...

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:37 AM
Supposedly lefties tend to be better than normal musicians. I have no idea if there's even the slightest real evidence to back that up though! I can think of lots of great lefty musicians/writers, but of course I can also think of lots of right handed ones...

If we say there are 10% left handed people in the world, then there's 600 million of us and 5.4 billion right handed (using 6 billion).

So...let's say we take 100 great musicians. If there are more than 10 left handed ones in that group, then left handed people are better at that specific task.

I don't think a left handed drummer would be better than a right handed one, but I do see several positives if playing guitar. It would be easier for a leftie to change notes with his right hand, but tweaking the strings with the right hand would be harder. Unless ambidextrous, which is quite normal in lefties.

I think the big difference comes when looking at abstract thinking in general (yes, music, especially creating it, is abstract) we will find a lot more lefties than righties (compared to the total number in each group).

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:42 AM
I have heard statistics that we are more likely to succumb to accidental death than rihgt-handers (curse you, right-hand world!!)... but I think the reason the stats won't count the elderly is because we have no idea how many were beaten or coerced into switching hands in their early schooling because of the "sinister" stigma, and wouldn't count young children because they may not have developed a sidedness yet.

I was told by my teacher I had to switch hand because being left handed was a sign of being retarded. This was in the early 80s...


And though not a member of any society, I was in a program for gifted kids for most of my scholastic career prior to university. With a similar IQ to my brother, who was in special ed classes and I don't know if he finished high school. Learning disability. So I dunno if that counts for anything. All I got from the gifted program was a few good experiences to combat the feeling that I was bottom of the barrel of the smart kids. <shrug> I don't recall there being a disproportionate number of lefties in my year group, there were about 20 of us in the program and it was something I watched for...

We've had this discussion on the Norwegian Mensa forum, and it seems a lot of higher IQ people have problems with regular school. One of the reasons is that they don't let you run with ideas, but instead wants you to conform. For me, the disappointment of not being able to develop my skills was a big factor in me being an under achiever. I didn't even graduate from high school, but when I did a compressed course and went through high school++ in a year, I excelled. Go figure.

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:45 AM
That's right, I forgot B12, which usually has to be taken as a supplement (my ex of 5 years is vegan, so I've become fairly well aquainted with the lifestyle!).

But, like I said to my grandma when she asked about my girlfriend being malnourished - vegans can potentially be short on a few key things, but everyone else tends to be short on the rest!

B-12 = carnitine?

There are also less essential amino acids and complete proteins in veg(etari)an food sources, less creatine and a LOT more estrogen stimulating food. You also have to be pretty good at mixing and matching to get the ratios right.

I shouldn't speak too loud, though, as I'm almost 100% meat eater. Vegetables are fillers if there's no more meat. ;D

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 12:52 AM
I was told by my teacher I had to switch hand because being left handed was a sign of being retarded. This was in the early 80s...


You're around my age, I never got that kind of crap, just the "why is your handwriting so abysmal?" crap after they inadvertently reinforced that speed was the key by rewarding us for getting our work done quickly and not making me do it over if the quality wasn't up to par... My dad was a lefty and permitted to be such in the 50's, and I know people younger than that who were forced to switch, so I guess it really depended on your teachers and school policy. And my writing looks just like his. Go figure.



We've had this discussion on the Norwegian Mensa forum, and it seems a lot of higher IQ people have problems with regular school. One of the reasons is that they don't let you run with ideas, but instead wants you to conform. For me, the disappointment of not being able to develop my skills was a big factor in me being an under achiever. I didn't even graduate from high school, but when I did a compressed course and went through high school++ in a year, I excelled. Go figure.

Whereas when I was bored, I'd just read novels through class, back when I could listen AND read at the same time... I guess at least the "enriched" (I think they're calling them today) program did give us an outlet to run with ideas, somewhere we didn't have to conform. What I got out of being above average was crappy study habits because I mostly didn't have to work too hard. Kinda hit home when I got to university and it wasn't all a breeze. Took 5 years to finish a 4-year degree.

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 01:09 AM
Whereas when I was bored, I'd just read novels through class, back when I could listen AND read at the same time...

I remember that time. I miss it. I used to read for exams while watching a movie, and, if I could, talk to friends on the phone. I cannot do that any more, and I think, like you mention, it's about the crappy habits I developed.


[COLOR="Purple"]Took 5 years to finish a 4-year degree.

hehe...just like me :D

AToE
04-14-2011, 01:13 AM
B-12 = carnitine?

There are also less essential amino acids and complete proteins in veg(etari)an food sources, less creatine and a LOT more estrogen stimulating food. You also have to be pretty good at mixing and matching to get the ratios right.

I shouldn't speak too loud, though, as I'm almost 100% meat eater. Vegetables are fillers if there's no more meat. ;D

B12 is apparently also called cobalamin.

It's actually a lot harder to get all the ratios wrong than it is to get them right - just eat boatloads of everything you can get your hands on that isn't processed, you'll live to be 100. ;D

The less amino acids (complete protien/same thing) in plants don't matter as long as you eat ones with complimentary amino acids. The general rule is combining grains and beans (tofu and rice noodles, beans and rice, so forth and so on) then you get what you need. Getting the proper amount of protein in a day is extremely easy on a vegan diet (let alone vegitarian, then it's just plain almost impossible not to get your protien) - most meat eaters (even those like myself who don't eat it that often) take in far more protien than they actually have any use for, it's just wasted. Iron, B12 and calcium are the major worries, and two of those are taken care of with leafy greens (spinach contains far more iron per weight than beef does for example).

The estrogen and creatine things I've frankly not run across before, I've never heard of those. I can't see them being a big deal just due to past experience, but I'm no expert, I'll have to dig into those.

The general perception that being vegan (or even more erroneous, vegitarian) is somehow less healthy than being omnivorous doesn't really stack up - not only because of what nutrition is in plants vs meat - the main thing is really simple: vegans know they might end up deficient in a couple areas, and as such make sure to eat a wide variety of food, and also generally avoid more processed food. Compare that with most meat eaters (myself included until 5 years ago) who basically have no idea what good nutrition is and take in most of their calories in very unhealthy forms (not the meat - it's the sugar water and white bread that'll kill you). Compare what % of vegans read the ingredients and nutrient info on every single package they buy to how many meat eaters do this (since we have no stats on that feel free to just guess!) and you'll see what I mean.

Just in case anyone is wondering too, I don't really care, and I'm not a pusher of veganism or anything - I just love a good argument, great exercise for the brain, even when I lose!

Plus I've just fallen in love with everything about being vegan other than giving up my occasional meat and dairy! They seem to be more aware of their surroundings than most people are, and have really good grasps on cause & effect morality (a term I made up just now).

Other than the crazy ones that yell at people. Those ones I don't look up to so much!

wildoates
04-14-2011, 01:31 AM
I'm a righty and while not much of a musician, I am fairly brainy, IQ moderately far up there, but lazy as heck and was an extremely poor student until...

I grew up a bit, and after piddling around with junior college for a few years, took intersession course that, among many other aptitudes, tested my IQ. I became profoundly embarrassed to have scored so high on that and every other test yet had accomplished so little up to that point. I got my act together and managed to graduate from university at age 34. I think all that makes me a better teacher, dunno.

But as a teacher, please don't blame us for not being able to provide the education for kids who are out of the ordinary on the high end of the scale--we try, but are constrained by so many things beyond our control--from the number of kids in our classes (commonly 40 for us in HS) to the resources we have for the kids who the system figures are smart enough to figure it out on their own, to the standardized tests we have to administer and have all students score well on. There's usually little room in that mess for the young GCs and Tiwases at school, unfortunately--and since my kds are all extremely bright too, I know what it's like on all sides. Our school just got IB, though, which I hope will help more kds like you!

Since I get the IB 9th graders, I think for fun I'll start surveying them on handedness to see if there's any correlation with braininess. :)

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 01:36 AM
The less amino acids (complete protien/same thing)

Not necessarily. A complete protein is protein with all the essential aminos. Doesn't have to be a lot of them or even protein dense.


The general rule is combining grains and beans (tofu

Tofu is one of the worst. So is green tea. http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm


Getting the proper amount of protein in a day is extremely easy on a vegan diet

I think that depends on two things - your body type (you don't see people with my body type eating vegan or vegetarian. Before the day was over, we'd accidentally eaten a kid) and also what kind of research you're supporting. I like the newer research, and I try to eat at least 2g/kg lean body mass. For me, that's almost 200g protein/day, which is like 2lbs of lean meat every day. That's a h€ll of a lot of fish/eggs. Not to mention beans (yuck!)


The estrogen and creatine things I've frankly not run across before, I've never heard of those. I can't see them being a big deal just due to past experience, but I'm no expert, I'll have to dig into those.

I'm the kind of person who usually think like "you can eat whatever you feel like, just don't criticize my steak!", so I have to admin I haven't done too much research into creatine for vegans and vegetarians. Creatine, though, is stored in muscle (MEAT! :D ) and is necessary for the production of ATP. Without ATP, you cannot lift heavy. You can run marathons, but I don't want to be a scrawny runner, so I don't concern myself with that either :)


omnivorous

Who wants to be an omnivore when there's so much good meat just waiting for me to suck it off the bones? [insert sensored smiley here - damned limit!]


(not the meat - it's the sugar water and white bread that'll kill you)

Completely agree with you. Insulin, while good for storing other nutrients, is NOT good when you flood the system with it. I use a periodic fast approach to eating, and I function sooo much better with fewer (but larger) insulin spikes during the day.


Compare what % of vegans read the ingredients and nutrient info on every single package they buy to how many meat eaters do this (since we have no stats on that feel free to just guess!) and you'll see what I mean.

Hmmm...if I take me and the people I hang out with, I'd say about 90%. However, for some reason I think that number would be slightly lower for the general population [insert sensored smiley here - damned limit!]


Just in case anyone is wondering too, I don't really care, and I'm not a pusher of veganism or anything - I just love a good argument, great exercise for the brain, even when I lose!

That's why they invented the word "why". I've won arguments by not making any of my own, but making them trip in their own. Simply by asking "why". Not good training for the brain, but it sure is fun [insert sensored smiley here - damned limit!]


[Vegans ... ]They seem to be more aware of their surroundings than most people are

That's because they know that carnivores like me will probably eat them if they're the only good protein source around [insert sensored smiley here - damned limit!]

AToE
04-14-2011, 01:43 AM
Holy smokes, that's going to take me a while to dig through! (One thing that jumped out though, fish ain't vegitarian, that be meat! Certainly not even close to vegan (no animal products at all)).

Your figures for how much protien a person needs sound extremely high, most nutritionists I've read/talked to recommend for me (about 190lbs) to get around 75-100g of protien per day, which is easy to do on beans and rice!

As for tofu/soy products being harmful - I've read a few things, it's all in dispute. I don't think we'll have any clear answers for a while (though I won't rule it out, soy is poisonous when raw, so it's not out of the question).

Let me dig through the rest of that and do some more research, I don't want to say things I haven't got evidence for! ;D

wildoates
04-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Biologically humans are omnivores--we have omnivore teeth, we have omnivore digestive tracts, we best get our required nutrients from a varied diet of plants and animals. Sure, we can get by eating only plants, people in famine situations do it out of necessity, but physiologically speaking it is not optimum. Veggit or vegan, you have to be much more careful about your diet than the person who eats meat/dairy couple of times a week or more. Personally I'm waaay to lazy to bother, plus I don't like most vegetables. :)

AToE
04-14-2011, 02:01 AM
I think the problem there is you're comparing a vegitarian/vegan to a person with a proper diet that contains meat.Yes, veg people may be deficient in a few areas of their diet - but the average north american is deficient in the vast majority of their diet (I can't count how many people I know who live (for now) off of starch, meat, cheeze, and sugar. Forget fruits, forget real vegitables (starches hardly count!)). EDIT: So my point there is that while a veg has to be careful - so does everyone else. Meat doesn't even come close to containing everything we need to be healthy either.

If I had to pick the diet of an uneducated vegan or an uneducated meat eater, I feel pretty confident I'd be one hell of a lot healthier going the vegi route!

I am an advocate of a balanced diet though that contains meat and dairy, as yes, we are obviously omnivorous. I couldn't give up dairy because cheeze is too awesome, and couldn't give up meat because I just love fish too much. Red meat and chicken I can forget about no problem (I've gone years without eating land animal meat).

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 02:06 AM
Your figures for how much protien a person needs sound extremely high, most nutritionists I've read/talked to recommend for me (about 190lbs) to get around 75-100g of protien per day

Most nutritionists read books from the previous century ;) Most recommendations the last few years say 1-2g/lbs lbm. Higher if you're on a diet (to prevent muscle loss)

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 02:10 AM
I think the problem there is you're comparing a vegitarian/vegan to a person with a proper diet that contains meat.

Isn't that the only comparison? I try to stay away from analogues like comparing the swimming efficiency of someone with no arms to someone with no legs. When comparing diets, you have to compare them when done correctly.

But...I do agree that a lot more vegans/vegetarians are aware of what they're eating. The difference is they could die from malnutrition (which is a misnomer, since most of us have malnutrition (that probably sounded dumb, but I'm too tired to spend time trying to phrase that better)). It also comes down to body type, like I mentioned. Putting me own fruit/vegetables only would be like locking up an addict. I'd get violent withdrawals, and my body wouldn't function.

AToE
04-14-2011, 02:11 AM
Most nutritionists read books from the previous century ;) Most recommendations the last few years say 1-2g/lbs lbm. Higher if you're on a diet (to prevent muscle loss)

I've never heard of this, and I do a lot of nutritional reading. I've heard of atheletes shooting for more than 150-300g per day (even a few vegan ones, who yes, do pull it off nicely. There's even some vegan body builders... somehow...).

I'm intrigued though. The general rule I've always heard is take your weight in pounds and divide it by 3, then make that number into grams if you're eating meat, divide it by 2 if you're not eating animal protein (because you'll have to be going for complimentary proteins). I'll have to get back at reading.

I wonder how those number will convert to vegitable proteins, as obviously to get complete protein then requires more total protien intake.

AToE
04-14-2011, 02:14 AM
Isn't that the only comparison? I try to stay away from analogues like comparing the swimming efficiency of someone with no arms to someone with no legs. When comparing diets, you have to compare them when done correctly.

But...I do agree that a lot more vegans/vegetarians are aware of what they're eating. The difference is they could die from malnutrition (which is a misnomer, since most of us have malnutrition (that probably sounded dumb, but I'm too tired to spend time trying to phrase that better)). It also comes down to body type, like I mentioned. Putting me own fruit/vegetables only would be like locking up an addict. I'd get violent withdrawals, and my body wouldn't function.

This is a little different though, because the majority of vegans have some idea (at least "some") what they're doing, and the vast majority of everyone else has no bloody idea.

I think body type might also be combined with what you're used to - feed dairy or meat to my ex girlfriend and she gets violently ill, even if she doesn't know it was given to her.

I'll totally agree that it would be easier to design a good diet around both meat and plant - but I think a near ideal diet could come from either aproach. Many of the world's healthiest, longest lived people are vegitarians or eat very little animal product. EDIT: If you had to eat all plants or all meats, one of those will put your life expectancy around 50 (Inuit), the other'll do fine.

AToE
04-14-2011, 02:19 AM
And I think if you tallied up all the veg people who die from malnutrition you'd have a pretty short list! I doubt anyone other than someone trying to live off of white bread could actually die from this!

Like I mentioned earlier too - vegitarians are prone to live off bread and cheese and processed food, it's not the lack of animal protien messing them up, it's the lack of much else.

I've never met a vegan who was showing any serious signs of malnutrition other than iron difficiency. (My ex went vegitarian when she was 12, full out vegan when she was 14, and is 23 now - blood tests and all show her to be totally good as far as nutrition goes, needs to beef up on the iron a bit though, but she also has a family history of iron difficiency).


I love how the more I type the less I can spell properly! :p

mccann51
04-14-2011, 12:12 PM
Okay, I'm really jumping into the middle of this, and I didn't read every word, so sorry if I'm repeating or making no sense.

In terms of the estrogen thing: yes, certain foods do have phyto-estrogen analogs. The big culprit is tofu, which if you partake in a varied diet, should not be the main source of protein or even present in your meals on a daily basis. When I was vegan a few years ago, I would have tofu very rarely, perhaps once a week. It's not necessary with a varied diet. Things like quinoa, wild rice, nutritional yeast, nuts, etc were all staples, but even then, I can get a good thing going with rice and beans. I should note, I was probably training and working out the most when I was a vegan, and was probably the most fit I've been (not saying it was because I was vegan, but that it is possible to do on a vegan diet).

There are also lots of anti-estrogen vegetables, which counter-act the negative effects of phytoestrogens. Three that come to mind: broccoli, nuts and seeds (omega-3 fatty acid, ALA being the big reason here, if I remember correctly), and red wine.

Creatine? Yes, you're not gonna be getting as much creatine on a veg diet, but you're body produces it naturally as well, so it's also not like you're gonna have a deficiency either. If it's that big of a deal, take a supplement; most meat eaters do anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

B12? This was a big concern for me when I became vegan. I LOVE B12. I used to use it as a supplement, and had a noticeable boost in energy. So, I took great pains to figure out where I could get it without animal products. Big source: yeast! Nutritional yeast, but all that sediment in your unfiltered, uncleared brew, yeah, that's what you want.

200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it. That said, it's definitely not hard to eat that much protein as a vegan. Yes, you have to eat a lot, but it's not impossible. Like I said, nuts and seeds.

All that said, I am no longer vegan or vegetarian. I do partake very conservatively in animal products, though, because I feel the practice of eating as much meat as Americans do is completely unsustainable and bad news for our environment. I've already spent too much time on this though, so I'll leave off on that.

AToE
04-14-2011, 12:20 PM
Okay, I'm really jumping into the middle of this, and I didn't read every word, so sorry if I'm repeating or making no sense.

In terms of the estrogen thing: yes, certain foods do have phyto-estrogen analogs. The big culprit is tofu, which if you partake in a varied diet, should not be the main source of protein or even present in your meals on a daily basis. When I was vegan a few years ago, I would have tofu very rarely, perhaps once a week. It's not necessary with a varied diet. Things like quinoa, wild rice, nutritional yeast, nuts, etc were all staples, but even then, I can get a good thing going with rice and beans. I should note, I was probably training and working out the most when I was a vegan, and was probably the most fit I've been (not saying it was because I was vegan, but that it is possible to do on a vegan diet).

There are also lots of anti-estrogen vegetables, which counter-act the negative effects of phytoestrogens. Three that come to mind: broccoli, nuts and seeds (omega-3 fatty acid, ALA being the big reason here, if I remember correctly), and red wine.

Creatine? Yes, you're not gonna be getting as much creatine on a veg diet, but you're body produces it naturally as well, so it's also not like you're gonna have a deficiency either. If it's that big of a deal, take a supplement; most meat eaters do anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

B12? This was a big concern for me when I became vegan. I LOVE B12. I used to use it as a supplement, and had a noticeable boost in energy. So, I took great pains to figure out where I could get it without animal products. Big source: yeast! Nutritional yeast, but all that sediment in your unfiltered, uncleared brew, yeah, that's what you want.

200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it. That said, it's definitely not hard to eat that much protein as a vegan. Yes, you have to eat a lot, but it's not impossible. Like I said, nuts and seeds.

All that said, I am no longer vegan or vegetarian. I do partake very conservatively in animal products, though, because I feel the practice of eating as much meat as Americans do is completely unsustainable and bad news for our environment. I've already spent too much time on this though, so I'll leave off on that.

Well, I should just let you talk for me in the future! That pretty much mirrors what quick research I was able to get done, and your sentiments and mine are the same (also, when I was working out more and pretty ripped I was practically vegan as well from a nutritional point of veiw, maybe a 100g of cheese a month, and a piece of meat (including fish) every few months - and I was pretty ripped at 200lbs at the time, now I'm just a little chubby!).


I have heard of tofu being problematic but didn't know why, now I know - good to know it shouldn't be every day. But, so is bacon, and I'm not stopping eating that once in a while! Even if you told me tofu was worse for you than alcohol I'd have to keep eating it, it's too awesome to give up. ;D

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:40 PM
200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it.

I guess we could argue that all night long and still wouldn't agree. My body doesn't like carbs, and it's been proven that most people will get a more favorable body composition by getting rid of some of the carb and replacing it with protein. As for 0.5g per lbs, that might be enough if you're in a caloric surplus and didn't want to increase size.

As I'm a lazy bastard, I hereby invite you over to Lyle MacDonald's board to discuss the specifics of things. :)

wildoates
04-14-2011, 12:44 PM
Next time I'm in Oslo, Tiwas, I'll come visit and we can gnaw on some meat together. :)

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 12:52 PM
Next time I'm in Oslo, Tiwas, I'll come visit and we can gnaw on some meat together. :)

ooh! Ooh! Spare ribs! :D

AToE
04-14-2011, 12:58 PM
Tiwas, when do you sleep man?! Carbs aren't great for sure - that's the number 1 mistake most vegitarians make is eating too much of the stuff (probably one of the main mistakes everyone makes actually!). Empty carbs like white bread are really the trouble though, if it's coming with nutrition and lots of protien it isn't bad to have some.

I know I was able to get ripped and into the peak physical condition of my adult life off of around 75-100g of protien a day, but that's certainly not scientific evidence!

Here's a UFC fighter who's a tad bit more ripped than I was though, who is also vegan: Ricardo "Mad Dog" Moreira (google this guy, if him, his trainers and his nutritionalists don't see a problem with him being vegan, then I doubt there is one!)

EDIT: Removed picture of vegan bodybuilder, as apparently the photo in the article was of a different bodybuilder... pretty misleading!


I feel bad about how badly we derailed this conversation, at least it wasn't about mead making even in the beginning! And it is a fun conversation.

AToE
04-14-2011, 01:04 PM
One thing I like to do when I go shopping for meat is look for bison, elk, that kind of stuff. One of my main problems with meat is factory farming, and with beef it is very hard to know if your cow grew up in a feild, or in a box - but there's no such thing as factory farmed bison! Makes decision making easier for me.


One of the funny things I get into arguments with vegitarians (not vegans) about is eggs and dairy - I think vegitarians picked the wrong things to consume when it comes to trying to be nice to animals. Sure, with meat the animal dies, but some things are worse than death. With factory farmed dairy and eggs (especially eggs, those are the worst) you get maximum pain and suffering.

Free range eggs are easy to find, but I have a seriously tough time finding freerange dairy - it drives me insane. We have lots and lots of great dairy farmers here, but their product gets lumped in with the factory product.

All I want is cheese, cheese and more cheese, from happy cows! (Good cheese makers often insist on free range milk, often grass fed rather than grain as well, apparently it makes much better cheese).

But that's yet another horribley derailed conversation! ;D

wildoates
04-14-2011, 01:18 PM
ooh! Ooh! Spare ribs! :D

My son makes the most awesome ribs. Too bad they're sooo expensive in Norway--we spent 600 kroner on a pile of them last summer and I about choked.

mccann51
04-14-2011, 01:22 PM
I guess we could argue that all night long and still wouldn't agree. My body doesn't like carbs, and it's been proven that most people will get a more favorable body composition by getting rid of some of the carb and replacing it with protein. As for 0.5g per lbs, that might be enough if you're in a caloric surplus and didn't want to increase size.

As I'm a lazy bastard, I hereby invite you over to Lyle MacDonald's board to discuss the specifics of things. :)

I agree, we could spend a lot of time disagreeing on this point, haha! It's definitely not something I care enough about to go back and find citations, but the point I'd like you to consider is that you can consume a lot less protein than you think and still get the same results. I also understand people's body's are different (this is something fitness "gurus" never seem to remember when they come up with the newest diet and fitness fads that they want to sell), but fiber is a whole different beast of a carb from say pasta-and-bread carbs (as AToE pointed out), and it's also been shown that protein PLUS fiber will result in a good body composition.
All this said, I'm not disparaging pasta, bread, or tofu (my last post); I'm a strong proponent of everything in moderation.


To add to AToE's list of people to check out if you're not aware of them: Jon Fitch (who also dips [chewing tobacco], so take it with a grain of salt) and Jason Ferruggia; both these guys eat predominantly vegan from what I've read.



One of the funny things I get into arguments with vegitarians (not vegans) about is eggs and dairy - I think vegitarians picked the wrong things to consume when it comes to trying to be nice to animals. Sure, with meat the animal dies, but some things are worse than death. With factory farmed dairy and eggs (especially eggs, those are the worst) you get maximum pain and suffering.

Free range eggs are easy to find, but I have a seriously tough time finding freerange dairy - it drives me insane. We have lots and lots of great dairy farmers here, but their product gets lumped in with the factory product.

All I want is cheese, cheese and more cheese, from happy cows! (Good cheese makers often insist on free range milk, often grass fed rather than grain as well, apparently it makes much better cheese)


To add to this - but hopefully not to add too much guilt - it's been shown (http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2008/08/the-problem-of-what-to-eat/) that dairy products are actually more ecologically taxing than just eating chicken (which is actually for ecologically sound), for instance. Again, not trying to step on anybody's ToE's (haha, sorry, had to do it), as I eat dairy, but it's good info to keep in mind. I find farmer's markets are pretty good for quality dairy.



Haha, I'm enjoying this, but I really gotta get back to work!

EDIT: another great article (http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2010/12/let-them-eat-meat/) I just found from Conservation Magazine, which is, btw, published by the Society for Conservation Biology, a reputable professional, scientific society, for what it's worth.

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 01:25 PM
AToE: as long as I get my 3 hours a day I'm fine :)

But about carbs: it seems we agree to an extent, but the thing is that carbs are bad (except what you need to fill up glycogen, you really don't need any - the body can even convert other nutrients into carbs) - the difference is how badly you react to them. I don't have all the references, but all the research I've seen from the last decade agrees on just that.

Here's roughly the caloric layout for me:
Carbs: 100g (400kcal)
Fat: 100-150g (900-1350kcal)
Now...in order for me to even pass 2000kcal (I'm 100kg, but not ripped) I do need quite a bit of protein just for that.

But anyway...if smaller amounts of protein works fine for you, you should stick with it. If I eat more than max 200g in a day I get gas enough to power a small village and I end up bloated (I can add ~10lbs of just bloat, and it's not from salt).

Another way to look at it is this:
* There are no essential carbs
* There ARE essential fatty acids
* There ARE essential amino acids
* The body can convert almost anything to sugar, and when it can't it is designed to run on ketones
* Too much fat is bad for you (yes, so is too much protein :D ), so you need to get calories from other sources

But I'm jumping off this part of the discussion now. I believe we are all strong willed and we all believe we have "the answer" (tm), so it's really no use. I still recommend discussing the subject with Lyle. He's regarded as one of the top in his field.

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 01:27 PM
My son makes the most awesome ribs. Too bad they're sooo expensive in Norway--we spent 600 kroner on a pile of them last summer and I about choked.

You should try our traditional belly pork (is that right? That's what the aussies called it) if you ever come in winter. It's soooooo good :D And it's actually pretty cheap :)

AToE
04-14-2011, 01:55 PM
I shouldn't really get into these kinds of discussions in the first place, because I'm not a nutrition expert, but also because it gets confusing I think.

My thing isn't saying at all that vegan is healthier than omnivorous. My thing is more than people have this idea that being vegan properly is difficult, when in fact it's rather easy as long as you don't eat junk all the time, and it's definitely possible for a vegan diet to be perfectly healthy (just as it's possible for a meat eating diet to be perfectly healthy).

wildoates
04-14-2011, 01:55 PM
mmmmm...pork bellies...

We're done with testing for the day and I put in Kung Fu Panda to occupy them until the bell rings. Now I want pork AND noodles. :)

AToE
04-14-2011, 01:57 PM
You should try our traditional belly pork (is that right? That's what the aussies called it) if you ever come in winter. It's soooooo good :D And it's actually pretty cheap :)

Bacon? Pork belly is the best part of the pig (I can't stand "ham" but love bacon), so many different ways it can be prepared too. I can never remember all the different names, I know bacon only loosely applies to a few different ways of preparing it.

AToE
04-14-2011, 02:02 PM
Funny story I just thought of - I was talking to my Ukrainian grandma about veganism, and she said she couldn't picture a "hearty" stick-to-the-ribs vegitarian dish (let alone vegan), all she could picture was light stuff.

Nearly made me fall out of my chair laughing! Ukraine has some of the finest vegitarian and vegan food in the world, and it's about as heavy and hearty as it gets! Perogi - vegitarian normally, and actually the way my family makes them they're vegan until they pour the cream on them. Peteshkeh (can't spell that at all, like perogi, but it's more like a bun filled with potatoe rather than a normal dumpling) is also vegitarian (not vegan). And the cabbage rolls she makes happen to be already 100% vegan!

Every Xmas she'd make my girlfriend some bizarre gross thing to eat, like buckwheat and onions... all the while she's already making top notch vegan food and doesn't even know about it! ;D

wayneb
04-14-2011, 02:56 PM
Alan, you're makin' me hungry! And I can't get that kind of food around here very easily....

AToE
04-14-2011, 03:19 PM
I wish I knew how to properly write peteshkeh down so I could link to what it is and show you, it's amazing, tiny buns full of potatoe and cottage cheese, then the whole pan of them is drenched in heavy cream.

Tiwas
04-14-2011, 03:28 PM
I wish I knew how to properly write peteshkeh down so I could link to what it is and show you, it's amazing, tiny buns full of potatoe and cottage cheese, then the whole pan of them is drenched in heavy cream.

Yeah, sounds wonderful. Then I could spend two weeks with gas and waiting for the exema/psoriasis to clear up afterwards ;)

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 03:43 PM
I tried to go vegetarian in high school but considering that I wasn't the cook for the household and was holding a part-time job too, I wasn't getting the proteins I needed and didn't have the control over my food to get it right, and started dropping weight and I was already off the low end of the body mass index scale (not so much with the skinny anymore, metabolism finally settled down when I hit 25 and I put on almost 50 lbs from high school to my top weight).

Now I settle for getting farm eggs whenever I can, upping the protein in a dish by hiding things like legumes in it, getting free range stuff when I can afford it, and every couple years I find enough freezer space for half a cow and I know the farmer...

The best new year's resolution I ever made was to start making a conscious effort get my 5 fruits and veggies every day. Over 2 years, I dropped and have kept off 15 lbs by doing just that. The benefits are that since I'm full of apples and carrots, I'm not as hungry for breads/pastas so portion control is a lot easier, I don't have as many energy crashes as I used to because the body has to work a bit to get the nutrients out of fruits and veggies, and I'm getting enough fibre, which I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing before. The hunter-gatherer diet seems to work well for me. Except for the occasional emergency croissant, onion rings, bag of sour cream and onion potato chips or Ah Caramel... but hey, when ya gotta have it, ya gotta have it. Moderation in all things, including moderation.

AToE
04-14-2011, 03:49 PM
Yeah, sounds wonderful. Then I could spend two weeks with gas and waiting for the exema/psoriasis to clear up afterwards ;)

Yeah, I think Ukrainians not having gone extinct is good evidence for carbs not being quite as bad as we might think they are! They must seriously get 90% of their calories from potatoes.

AToE
04-14-2011, 03:57 PM
The best new year's resolution I ever made was to start making a conscious effort get my 5 fruits and veggies every day. Over 2 years, I dropped and have kept off 15 lbs by doing just that. The benefits are that since I'm full of apples and carrots, I'm not as hungry for breads/pastas so portion control is a lot easier, I don't have as many energy crashes as I used to because the body has to work a bit to get the nutrients out of fruits and veggies, and I'm getting enough fibre, which I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing before. The hunter-gatherer diet seems to work well for me. Except for the occasional emergency croissant, onion rings, bag of sour cream and onion potato chips or Ah Caramel... but hey, when ya gotta have it, ya gotta have it. Moderation in all things, including moderation.

Yeah, I need to get back on making smoothies every day, it's the only way I get enough fruit, and it's a nice place to cram in suppliments like nutritional yeast (which is seriously awesome for cooking with, I make a nutritional yeast gravy that my grandma would be jealous of!).

wayneb
04-14-2011, 05:40 PM
I wish I knew how to properly write peteshkeh down so I could link to what it is and show you, it's amazing, tiny buns full of potatoe and cottage cheese, then the whole pan of them is drenched in heavy cream.
I wish that I knew exactly how to write this one down, too. Unfortunately, what you're trying to spell phonetically doesn't correlate to any of the variants of dumplings or buns that I know of in Polish, Ukranian or Russian. From what you're describing, it seems like these could either be variants of either Pirozhki or Vareniki, or Uszka.

The trouble with trying to know exactly what you're talking about is that the Ukranians who emigrated to Canada in the latter part of the 1800's thru the early 1900's settled in some isolated areas, and ended up speaking a kind of Canad-Ukranian-English, which changed some aspects of the original mother tongue, mixing it with the Scot-inflected English common in central Canada at that time. So, you guys have some unusual words (or at least unusual pronunciations) for some things that are otherwise common to Poland-Ukraine-Lithuania-Belarus.

AToE
04-14-2011, 06:19 PM
I wish that I knew exactly how to write this one down, too. Unfortunately, what you're trying to spell phonetically doesn't correlate to any of the variants of dumplings or buns that I know of in Polish, Ukranian or Russian. From what you're describing, it seems like these could either be variants of either Pirozhki or Vareniki, or Uszka.

The trouble with trying to know exactly what you're talking about is that the Ukranians who emigrated to Canada in the latter part of the 1800's thru the early 1900's settled in some isolated areas, and ended up speaking a kind of Canad-Ukranian-English, which changed some aspects of the original mother tongue, mixing it with the Scot-inflected English common in central Canada at that time. So, you guys have some unusual words (or at least unusual pronunciations) for some things that are otherwise common to Poland-Ukraine-Lithuania-Belarus.

That's a good point. My Ukrainian family has been here for a little over 100 years on my grandfather's side, not sure how long for my grandmother's family. (other half of my family is British)

My grandparents say the "real" word for perogi is petteheh (trying to think of a better way to try to write that... it's "pet-e-heh" all of the "E"s in there are the same sound, like in the word "pet"). In all my recent online reseach, this is not a ukrainian word for dumpling at all, neither is anything that looks phonetically even CLOSE to peteshkeh (you can see though how similar that word is to their word for perogi, so they're probably from the same language).

This is weirding me out, I wonder if there was some other ethnicity we're not thinking of right now that passed off some words to my family, because those words aren't even close to any ukrainian words I've found. And it's not just my close family either, we're talking about a family with hundreds and hundreds of people in it, they all seem to use these words. AND they all insist they're just speaking ukrainian!

AToE
04-14-2011, 06:29 PM
Ok, what we call perogi and my granparents call peteheh looks like the same thing as varenyky. It's just potatoe dough filled with potatoes, half-circle shape.

Pirozhki seems to be similar to what we call peteshkeh, but looking at wikipedia for Ukrainian cuisine, the ukrainian word should be Pyrizhky (not even close to our name).

It's funny, neither our perogies or peteshkeh or cabbage rolls EVER have meat in them. The perogies are often fried in a pan with bacon and onions after being boiled, but in my whole life I have never seen a family member put meat inside of something. (But, the Ukrainian half of my ex's family did put bacon inside the cabbage rolls, also, her family makes cabbage rolls with sour cabbage, ours are different, see below).

Our cabbage rolls seem to be unique too, they're made with non-sour cabbage (not sure what the norm is elsewhere) and filled with rice and onion. They're then stacked into a baking pan and thoroughly drenched in tomato sauce, so they cook in the sauce and are served with it (it turns into more of just a red coating than a sauce by the end).

Whenever I see someone putting meat into a cabbage roll or perogi it just seems weird and wrong to me!

wayneb
04-14-2011, 06:30 PM
Other ethnic influence, possibly, but it might just be a combination of that English-Ukranian mixing, along with a couple of folks being hard of hearing along the way!

Even my experience with Polish here in N. America suggests that two things have happened - there are definite Polish-American variant pronunciations of some words, and others (according to some of my Polish European friends, anyway) are pronounced over here in an archaic accent that hasn't been used in Poland since back in the 1800's. There are regional variants that take hold in every language as time goes on, and as more and more time elapses, those variants diverge to the point where their respective speakers can't understand each other any more.

Oh, and the ways my extended family made stuffed cabbage rolls (including Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian, Slovenian variations), there were versions with meat, and without, as well as versions with rice, or with barley, and with tomato sauce, vs. a sweet/sour sauce spiced with caraway that had no tomatoes in it whatsoever.

BTW - I can see where Pirozhki could morph into Pyrizhky (Russian to Ukrainian "classic" pronunciations), which under the influence of some Scots-English could have changed further into Pereshky, and eventually Peteshkeh. That softening of the "ee" sound represented by a "i" or "y" in the original spellings into an "eh" sound is common in many language adaptations. Likewise, a trilled "r" can easily be truncated into a sound similar to a "t." I don't think you're too far from the truth with your call that your peteshkeh are actually pirozhki.

AToE
04-14-2011, 06:50 PM
They seem pretty similar. Ours are a distinct brick shape, not rounded, and always have the same fillings, but that could easily just be a family tradition.

Good call on that pronunciation change explanation, I never would have figured it out, seemed like too much of a stretch!

TheAlchemist
04-14-2011, 08:22 PM
??? I somehow have managed to not understand that "at least we're not gorillas" joke entirely! Seriously, I'm lost. But jokes become not funny if they're explained... so I'm screwed either way it seems. :(

This was a PUN following a note about being "leftist."

TheAlchemist
04-14-2011, 08:28 PM
...and wouldn't count young children because they may not have developed a sidedness yet. ...

"Handedness," if you're looking for it, shows up fairly early in development....

AToE
04-14-2011, 08:37 PM
This was a PUN following a note about being "leftist."

I got that, I just don't get the pun! Is there something in the word gorilla that I'm missing?! Arrgg, why am I so dense sometimes?

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 08:46 PM
"Handedness," if you're looking for it, shows up fairly early in development....

Yeah but it's probably harder to quantify in pre-school kids than it is with school-age kids...

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I need to get back on making smoothies every day, it's the only way I get enough fruit, and it's a nice place to cram in suppliments like nutritional yeast (which is seriously awesome for cooking with, I make a nutritional yeast gravy that my grandma would be jealous of!).

Believe it or not, I have to seriously watch my yeast intake... candidasis is a bit*h... fortunately I found a supplement that mostly works like the diet (which I will not submit to again short of as a lifesaving measure) so I can have wine and sugar and normal carbs in moderation.

AToE
04-14-2011, 09:04 PM
Crazy, I just wikipedia'd that... totally weird. And even eating the stuff (even when it's dead?) can cause problems?

Chevette Girl
04-14-2011, 09:14 PM
Crazy, I just wikipedia'd that... totally weird. And even eating the stuff (even when it's dead?) can cause problems?

I didn't understand why myself till I got into winemaking, actually... but if you think about it, what do we feed yeast? Dead yeast!

Adn yeah, if I'm off my supplements, even baked gluten-free bread is off the list because of the dead yeast...

TheAlchemist
04-14-2011, 10:42 PM
...We've had this discussion on the Norwegian Mensa forum...

You in the Mensa community, Tiwas?

In another thread, I'd wonder how many mazers are in Mensa? In SCA?

TheAlchemist
04-14-2011, 10:52 PM
...Took 5 years to finish a 4-year degree.

Don't take it personally...I'd say this is not uncommon with an engineering degree, but there are so many actual engineers here, I'd be inclined to ask them for their expertise...

TheAlchemist
04-14-2011, 11:05 PM
Holy smokes, that's going to take me a while to dig through! ... Certainly not even close to vegan (no animal products at all)).

The question of being vegan is anathema to this site as mead, by definition, uses honey, which is an animal product.

Tiwas
04-15-2011, 12:40 AM
Yeah but it's probably harder to quantify in pre-school kids than it is with school-age kids...

I disagree, but it all comes down to how you raise kids. Where I'm from, you probably have at least two knives before starting school and I wouldn't even hesitate giving a knife (under supervision) to a three or four year old (depending on maturity). It'll be the hand they instinctively use when they need to focus :D

Chevette Girl
04-15-2011, 01:23 AM
I disagree, but it all comes down to how you raise kids. Where I'm from, you probably have at least two knives before starting school and I wouldn't even hesitate giving a knife (under supervision) to a three or four year old (depending on maturity). It'll be the hand they instinctively use when they need to focus :D

When I said harder to quantify, I meant "it's harder for the people coming up with the statistics to actually count the kids who aren't even in school yet", differing from my suggestion in an earlier post that sometimes it takes a while to figure out which hand is dominant...

And yeah, I came from a generation where I ordered a knife by collecting Bazooka Joe comics and sending them in with an order form before I was ten. No parental consent required. Still have the knife too. Used to use it for blowing off caps (for cap guns etc) so it's not in great shape :)

Tiwas
04-15-2011, 01:31 AM
When I said harder to quantify, I meant "it's harder for the people coming up with the statistics to actually count the kids who aren't even in school yet", differing from my suggestion in an earlier post that sometimes it takes a while to figure out which hand is dominant...

Ok, I can see the problem in ordering 2 million knives and then visiting every single child to see how they handle a knife :p



And yeah, I came from a generation where I ordered a knife by collecting Bazooka Joe comics and sending them in with an order form before I was ten. No parental consent required. Still have the knife too. Used to use it for blowing off caps (for cap guns etc) so it's not in great shape :)

I took my ex's 6 y.o. to an army surplus store to buy a "scout knife" (the kind they use when they're scouts - extremely sharp, but made from soft metal (hence the sharpness, and also why it has to be replaced often)) and the guy behind the counter almost freaked out. Like he said himself - he wasn't sure if he liked the idea of supplying a knife to a young kid, but he liked the idea of kids being able to handle things like that...

Tiwas
04-15-2011, 01:32 AM
You in the Mensa community, Tiwas?

In another thread, I'd wonder how many mazers are in Mensa? In SCA?

Kind of impossible to deny it now, isn't it? :p But...I'm kind of "the slow cousin" in Mensa ;D

Chevette Girl
04-15-2011, 01:36 AM
I took my ex's 6 y.o. to an army surplus store to buy a "scout knife" (the kind they use when they're scouts - extremely sharp, but made from soft metal (hence the sharpness, and also why it has to be replaced often)) and the guy behind the counter almost freaked out. Like he said himself - he wasn't sure if he liked the idea of supplying a knife to a young kid, but he liked the idea of kids being able to handle things like that...

My friend's sons are 6 and 8 and they both have knives. Apparently there's a whole Scouts knife safety handout and everything. Too bad I wasn't allowed in Scouts when I was a kid (it was boys only, for my area anyway), maybe I'd have fewer scars if someone had sat me down and outlined the stuff on that page instead of me having to learn it the hard way...

wayneb
04-15-2011, 01:41 AM
CG, not necessarily so. When I was young (age 8 or so), I got my first pocket knife as a reward for selling magazine subscriptions as part of a school fundraiser. I never had a minute of instruction with it, except for my Dad's caution to be careful (very helpful!), and I still have all parts of all 10 fingers, and I still have that knife somewhere around here - it's a really cool one with a grey bone handle and... I digress. Anyway, my son got his knife as part of a Cub Scout training exercise in how to whittle, and he promptly whittled away part of his left thumb. He's still got the scar, and a healthy respect for all things sharp and pointy! ;D

Chevette Girl
04-15-2011, 01:51 AM
CG, not necessarily so.

Yeah, I suppose if you're a total uncoordinated klutz like I am, you're going to hurt yourself eventually anyway even if you did take the safety course :rolleyes: and for some of us, pain isn't as good a teacher as others so it takes a couple of times before we figure out to cut AWAY from self, not TOWARDS self, I've even cut myself with vegetable peelers... I am kind of surprised that I never did myself any serious damage... but yeah, my right hand is full of scars from various knives slipping off whatever I was carving and into the hand I was holding it with... I think the x-acto blade across the thumbpad will forever haunt my fingerprints... at least I don't cut myself too often with the kitchen knives. And I've figured out how to use a chisel for carving, much safer to not be holding the piece you're working on!

Tiwas
04-15-2011, 01:56 AM
CG, not necessarily so. When I was young (age 8 or so), I got my first pocket knife as a reward for selling magazine subscriptions as part of a school fundraiser. I never had a minute of instruction with it, except for my Dad's caution to be careful (very helpful!), and I still have all parts of all 10 fingers, and I still have that knife somewhere around here - it's a really cool one with a grey bone handle and... I digress. Anyway, my son got his knife as part of a Cub Scout training exercise in how to whittle, and he promptly whittled away part of his left thumb. He's still got the scar, and a healthy respect for all things sharp and pointy! ;D

Only way to learn that knives are (or should be) sharp (dull knives are more dangerous) - cut yourself
Only way to learn that it hurts falling down from a tree - climb up and fall down
etc etc

AToE
04-15-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't even remotely remember when I got my first knife... I grew up in the country, so I might have been as young as 4 years old or something? My dad always told me the important things were these: cut away from your hand and away from the rest of your body, at all times. When walking with a knife in your hand (or any sharp object) carry it so that the pointy end points "backwards" or "down" so that if you trip and fall you're more likely to stab yourself somewhere non-vital.

Good advice, kept me safe!


The question of being vegan is anathema to this site as mead, by definition, uses honey, which is an animal product.

Absolutely - except there is an ever growing group of people who are ditching honey from their personal definition of vegan. Honey as an animal product (technically sure, it is one) kinda misses the original spirit of why someone becomes vegan in the first place, and that's just to do good in the world. Eventually many vegans realize that consuming honey actually does more good for the world than it does slight harm to bees, so back on the honey they go. (Plus, in my ex girlfriend's words: "they're bugs" ;D)

So they'd call themselves "vegan, except for honey" (which is better than "vegitarian, but I also don't eat: eggs, dairy, any products even remotely containing animal products, also don't wear leather, or wool, or buy products glued together with animal based glue..." and so on for about an hour or two of talking! :p).

TheAlchemist
04-15-2011, 07:19 PM
Yowza!

Now that I'm taking the time to look at the page 3 notes here, this thread's makin' me hungry! Just got up and made myself a skillet full of potato pancakes!

TheAlchemist
04-15-2011, 07:27 PM
I feel bad about how badly we derailed this conversation, at least it wasn't about mead making even in the beginning! And it is a fun conversation.

Please don't feel bad. I'm enjoying the side show!

TheAlchemist
04-15-2011, 07:33 PM
...One of my main problems with meat is factory farming, and with beef it is very hard to know if your cow grew up in a feild, or in a box - but there's no such thing as factory farmed bison!

All I want is cheese, cheese and more cheese, from happy cows! (Good cheese makers often insist on free range milk, often grass fed rather than grain as well, apparently it makes much better cheese).


Go Irish on the cheese. Those are some seriously happy cows. They get fed the spent grain from Jameson and Guiness...

I'm with you on the bison, venison, etc. A cow is nearly always a CAFO product.

TheAlchemist
04-15-2011, 07:43 PM
Yeah, I need to get back on making smoothies every day, it's the only way I get enough fruit, and it's a nice place to cram in suppliments like nutritional yeast (which is seriously awesome for cooking with, I make a nutritional yeast gravy that my grandma would be jealous of!).

I use my spent lees in quick breads and no one's the wiser...

Medsen Fey
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
The question of being vegan is anathema to this site as mead, by definition, uses honey, which is an animal product.

At what point does something become an animal product by Vegan definition? For example - If I pick up an organic apple, there's a good chance it is the direct result of a bee's pollination, along with the animal manure used to fertilize the tree, and I'm essentially taking it out of the mouth of some hungry deer who would gladly eat it if I wasn't able to get to it first. So if honey isn't acceptable, why are apples? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm actually curious to understand the definition.

An additional question is, do Vegans eschew leather goods?

Smarrikåka
04-19-2011, 12:05 PM
I guess it's about respecting the ownership rights of animals?

The deer doesn't lay claim to the apple at the point at which it was taken in the same way that the bees lay claim to the honey they produced.

But IMO dissing honey is just silly. The same goes for dairy products, and unfertile eggs really. If cows, bees and chickens create more than they make use of/need of these things, it'd be a waste to not harvest it.

AToE
04-19-2011, 12:22 PM
At what point does something become an animal product by Vegan definition? For example - If I pick up an organic apple, there's a good chance it is the direct result of a bee's pollination, along with the animal manure used to fertilize the tree, and I'm essentially taking it out of the mouth of some hungry deer who would gladly eat it if I wasn't able to get to it first. So if honey isn't acceptable, why are apples? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm actually curious to understand the definition.

An additional question is, do Vegans eschew leather goods?

I agree honey as non-vegan is silly (so did my vegan girlfriend). The reason it's considered an animal product is that it's not just something that came about through their actions, like an apple - it's something they made specifically for themselves. We drug them with smoke and "steal" their food, and yes, sometimes a few bees even get hurt in the process.

That's the difference, it's a pretty big one really. That said, A: They're bugs! and B: They make way more honey than they need anyways! We just take their surplus and give them one hell of a healthcare system in return. And C: Bees are ultra important to the environment and our agriculture. Beekeeping is a huge part of the current bee population, and those are the people funding the research to save them.

So at the end of the day, does taking their honey do bees some harm? Yes, some get hurt/killed sometimes (occasionally squished when the combs are being removed I think is what happens?), no real way around that. But - does beekeeping do vast amounts of good, for the bees, for us as people, for the environment? Yup, and in my opinion the good far outweighs the bad.


As to stuff like leather - yes, most vegans don't buy leather products, or anything made with animal products at all. This depends on why the person is vegan though. Someone who's vegan for just health reasons won't care about leather, but someone who's vegan for ethical reasons would care.

AToE
04-19-2011, 12:30 PM
On to eggs - here's the deal. Eggs would be fine, because they're actually just a waste product. All they're going to do is rot if we don't eat them.

The issue is not that eating an egg hurts an animal - FARMING eggs hurts a lot of animals. Eggs are actually probably the single worst offender for pain and suffering. In most egg facilities (we're talking "factory farm") the chickens are crammed into tiny cages in which they cannot move, this causes extreme pain for their entire lives. Some of these they cram multiple chickens into one cage together, in many cases cutting off the end of their beaks and claws so that they cannot injur eachother (this is somewhat more rare, but does happen). Free-run facilities are better, and free-range is obviously the best - it also increases the quality of the eggs... eat a free range egg compared to the normal factory farmed variety and the taste improvement is immediately obvious.

The other problem vegans have with eggs is that at the hatcheries where the chicks are being born to become egg layers, workers check each chick to see if it's male or female. The males are either thrown into a wood-chipper type device (alive) to become dog food (not kidding, I've seen it) or are simply tossed (alive) into the garbage to starve to death.

So the issue vegans have with eggs has nothing to do with the eggs, just with how we get the eggs.

(And some vegans don't even have a problem with meat. My girlfriend said many times I should eat all the meat I want, we're at the top of the food chain after all! But I should respect the animal while it's alive and not torture it. I agree.)

EDIT: so yeah - if I have a couple of pet chickens that I treat well and eat their eggs, most vegans would think it's a little gross, but would have no ethical objection. Most of them have actually thought this stuff through believe it or not!

AToE
04-19-2011, 12:39 PM
And on to dairy. The issue is basically the same. We are capable of harvesting dairy in a humane natural way - when a cow/whatever has a baby, we can hijack some of it's milk production for ourselves. This is great if the animal is living with it's child, out in a feild somewhere being happy.

The problem again is factory farming. The cows are stuck into tiny pens that they cannot move more than a few inches to each side (not as painful as what chickens go through, but you stand still for a few hours and then try to imagine standing still your whole life), they are hooked up to automatic milkers which have all the potential to be humane (indeed, many free range facilities use these as well) but for some reason, I don't know if the factory farmers are leaving them on too long, or what - the cows teats become raw, sore covered infected messes. To combat this the cows are fed a steady stream of antibiotics, and they're also fed hormones to keep up milk production (they're not going through the natural process of having a calf and nursing it after all) and some people are very concerned about all these things ending up in our milk (not to mention blood and puss).

So again, the issue isn't really the milk - it's the process of how we get it. If I have a pet goat (totally want one!) that I get pregnant and then steal some of it's milk for myself to make cheese, most vegans would have little or no issue with this.

Smarrikåka
04-19-2011, 01:17 PM
I don't think that they haven't given it some thought. But it still doesn't make sense, since there are eggs and dairy products, and even honey available that are eco-labeled, where fair (or at least fairer) treatment to the animals involved are assured. Buying those products and consuming those products does more to change the way the animals are treated, than refusing the goods completely in all instances.

AToE
04-19-2011, 01:33 PM
I don't think that they haven't given it some thought. But it still doesn't make sense, since there are eggs and dairy products, and even honey available that are eco-labeled, where fair (or at least fairer) treatment to the animals involved are assured. Buying those products and consuming those products does more to change the way the animals are treated, than refusing the goods completely in all instances.

I agree, but there's one more factor involved - the gross out factor. To a vegan dairy and eggs are just gross. Eggs are essentially the same as eating menstual period matter (pretty big yuk factor there) and milk is just a bodily fluid to them, we might as well be drinking blood or something else gross. I can totally see where they're coming from, personally I can't just drink a glass of milk, it's disgusting. Cheese/yogurt/etc I love though.

Not so bad if they're involved in baking where you can't taste them, but even then they know they're in there and it grosses them out. (plus some actually develop an intolerance to dairy)

Also as you say "fair-er" is an issue, and some vegans would still be uncomfortable with it until it reaches a totally humane level.

You're totally right that buying the products which treat animals right does more to improve the state of things than not buying at all - but that doesn't make it any easier psycologically for a vegan to partake!

Smarrikåka
04-19-2011, 01:54 PM
Well, if they don't like it, they don't like it. I just mean that they shouldn't feel the need to refuse it for ethical reasons in instances where consumption means an overall benefit for the animals.

AToE
04-19-2011, 02:00 PM
I agree, but the one last key is that even if buying the product does contribute to the solution, it may just be not far along enough for them to feel comfortable with it (ie: still causing suffering, just less than before).

The best example I can think of for us non-vegans is this - let's say shoe factory B342 has added a new policy, now employees are allowed to go to the bathroom without being docked pay. It's still a sweatshop, horrible conditions, dangerous, almost zero pay, employees abused on a regular basis - but now they've added one humane feature in an attempt to draw more customers than their competition, who are still slightly more evil.

Would buying their product contribute in the long run to conditions improving in not just that factory, but others as well? Yes, but man, I would not be comfortable participating at all.

AToE
04-19-2011, 02:18 PM
And look at me, I totally forgot one more dimension to meat/dairy/eggs: efficiency.

Free range "grass fed" isn't so bad, because the animals eat natural resources that are essentially free for us, but factory farmed (or any case where the animal has a large amount of it's diet supplimented by humans) use up insane quantities of resources to create far smaller amounts of food that just happen to taste nice.

I forget the math, I used to know it, but you have to put MANY pounds of plant into an animal to get 1 lb out of it.


Just because it's inneficient doesn't mean we shouldn't do it - hell, mead is pretty innefficient from a nutrition point of view as well. ;) ;D So meat/eggs/dairy should just be regarded as very expensive high-loss processes that we accept because they make something tasty and fun. Which is fine, humans do all kinds of things that are expensive just because they're fun.


However, these products should be of a reasonably quality in my opinion, otherwise we're really just wasting our time. If we're going to blow all these resources on animal products, let's get rid of garbage like McDonalds, and processed cheese, and all that other tasteless junk!

But if it's going to be high quality cheeses, meats eggs, cooked into something amazing - then by all means, I'm a bit of a hedonist! Let's get cooking!

To spend such vast amounts of resources when we're just going to turn it into garbage that is neither healthy nor tasty... that just makes me sad. :(

Smarrikåka
04-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Yeah, that would be ideal, and I think the world is moving slowly more and more in that direction.
Unfortunately though, there'll always be a market for the cheapest alternatives. But I think the future will see continued improvement of animal conditions and product quality, even on the cheapest levels.

AToE
04-19-2011, 03:03 PM
It'll get there eventually, the fact that people are starting to even think about things like whether an animal is free range or not is the beginning.

The problem is going to be that eventually everyone is going to have to reduce their meat intake. We simply don't have the land to suppport humane farming of that many animals - and as places that until now have eaten very little meat (India, lots of Asia) are slowly becoming westernized, the demand is only going to keep increasing for the next while.

It'll probably get a lot worse before it gets better.

What we need is cloned muscle tissue - factory farming without the suffering.

TheAlchemist
04-19-2011, 04:54 PM
So again, the issue isn't really the milk - it's the process of how we get it. If I have a pet goat (totally want one!) that I get pregnant and then steal some of it's milk for myself to make cheese, most vegans would have little or no issue with this.

Me, too!

But why is this conversation on the Southpaw thread when y'all have a vegetarian thread you could be using...

AToE
04-19-2011, 04:58 PM
I honestly have no idea how we got on this topic, but it keeps going and going!

TheAlchemist
04-19-2011, 04:59 PM
I forget the math, I used to know it, but you have to put MANY pounds of plant into an animal to get 1 lb out of it...


I'm a bit of a hedonist! Let's get cooking!

To spend such vast amounts of resources when we're just going to turn it into garbage that is neither healthy nor tasty... that just makes me sad. :(

Stats, If memory serves are something like this:
9# grain >>1# beef
5# grain>> 1# pork
4# grain >> 1# poultry

In the US it all boils down to The Corn Subsidy

TheAlchemist
04-19-2011, 05:03 PM
What we need is cloned muscle tissue - factory farming without the suffering.

EEEwwwww!

No, Alan, what we need is this:

Know Your Grower!

or...better yet, be the grower...

AToE
04-19-2011, 05:08 PM
EEEwwwww!

No, Alan, what we need is this:

Know Your Grower!

or...better yet, be the grower...

Hey, I'm not saying that's what I want to eat! I want free range happy animals. I'm just saying that I don't think the demand for factory farming is going to go away in the next hundred years, so we're better off just cloning the tissue we want, at least nothing suffers that way!

It's all the same stuff, just whether or not it was ever hooked up to a brain/mind. ;)

Medsen Fey
04-19-2011, 05:54 PM
OK, but the industrial production of grains (and vegetables) isn't exactly ethical when it comes to animals either. You rip up a bunch of forest to have big flat fields to run you tractors and combines through, destroying countless square miles of natural habitat. You spray the plants/grains with all sorts of unholy chemicals to kill insects/fungi/other pests possibly (and I mean only possibly) contributing to CCD, and certainly killing billions of insects, and potentially causing toxic ingestion in higher animals. You dump tons of fertilizer that runs of into streams causing algae blooms and choking off estuaries, and to run it all you've got to have petrol leading to massive spills in the Gulf. I don't think Vegans should get a pass on ethics unless everything they're eating is organic/hydroponic.

Frankly, I don't see the industrial production of meat or vegetables going away as long as the number of people continues to increase. We are going to feed ourselves as long as there is something to eat.

I personally would love to try a cloned-muscle, Kobe-beef steak!

AToE
04-19-2011, 06:10 PM
That's something vegans are well aware of, and it bugs them a lot.

Industrial farming is definitely bad for animals/the environment/humans too - but at least when you eat that stuff it only needs to be produced once (organic farming would be an improvement of course, but I certainly don't like paying that much for all my produce, just as much as I can afford is all I get).

Why do I say only once? - When you eat meat that's been factory farmed (or even free range, but with feed on top of grass) their feed comes from those same industrial farming sources.

So a vegan may eat a pound of unethically produced plant matter - but when a meateater eats a pound of meat they are in fact consuming many pounds of that exact same unethical plant matter - so even if the animal was happy, the multiplication of damage done is still there (there's no way around it with eating meat, it's just ineffecient. We have to accept that when we eat it). And, since the vast majority of meat consumed in North America is not exactly humanely produced (or good for the environment at all), there's that damage on top of the multiplied damage done by the plant matter that animal consumed.

So vegans don't get a pass on ethics for being perfect (who is?) they get a pat on the back for being better, that is all. It's not about being perfect, just doing as little damage as a person can, staying within being realistic.

Anything helps - making the decision to eat 1 less serving of factory farmed meat a week helps. It's a sacrifice in some cases, and not everyone can afford it, but all that needs to be done is have a nice vegitarian (may I suggest Indian) meal one night instead of a cheap-meat meal, then the next day eat some free range animal. If done right, the costs will balance out (eating meat isn't exactly cheap regardless of it's source).

Unfortunately the ethics are relative, we're all doing unethical things, it's just facing that, looking it in the eye and thinking to yourself "what small thing can I do right now, today, to make the world better?" One baby step at a time!

EDIT: As you may guess, this isn't my first rodeo when it comes to this topic!

AToE
04-19-2011, 06:18 PM
I wanted to add too that I give the opposite of a pat on the back to vegans who talk about honey being unethical. As we've all discussed, the good that honey production acheives is far greater than any damage done, therefore the total "ethic" is a positive.

I don't have an issue with them not wanting to eat honey - if the minor damage to a few bugs bothers them and they can't bring themselves to eat it, I totally respect that. What I take issue with is when they try to spread the idea that it is unethical, because they are just plain technically incorrect about that, and by attempting to spread that idea they are in fact doing potential damage (assuming they get anyone else off honey).

This is a big part of why I had nothing but respect for my "vegan" girlfriend. She wasn't a vegan for the sake of calling herself that, or for the sake of trying to be high and mighty. She honestly weighed (and researched, which is more than most people of any diet can claim) every single aspect of veganism and how diet/overall consumtion effects the world, and made her decisions. She looked at honey, decided it was in fact ethical, so went back to eating it.

TheAlchemist
04-19-2011, 06:19 PM
As Ben the Forager would say:

The Woods is the Healthiest Farm.

AToE
04-19-2011, 06:23 PM
;D I like that one.

When I get back to Vancouver I hope to rent/own a house, and I plan to rip out the whole yard and replace it with a food garden. I'll also get a couple chickens, which will be great because I'll have awesome free (and totally ethical) eggs, plus they'll eat most of the bugs that will be trying to eat my plants!

I'm still trying to figure out how I can keep a goat though... I want it's milk for cheese making. ;D

Tiwas
04-19-2011, 06:29 PM
If cows, bees and chickens create more than they make use of/need of these things, it'd be a waste to not harvest it.

mmmm....excess beef :D

AToE
04-19-2011, 06:36 PM
mmmm....excess beef :D

That's funny, that's actually kinda what my family used to do on our elk farm. We'd just raise the animals to be as well fed and happy as possible, then every spring when the males dropped off their old antlers (or stubs, see next bit) and grew new ones, we'd chop off the new antlers at just the right stage in their growth (as big as they're going to get, but still big rounded "clubs" on the ends rather than spikes). This is before the antler changed from it's velvet covered, fleshy/bloody bone phase into it's later "hard horn" phase.

Then those antlers (full of nice healthy blood) are frozen, dried, kilned and powdered into very potent medicine.

So there you go. The animal doesn't really need them since we take care of deciding who's going to mate with who, plus they're just going to kill eachother with the things anyways (and theirselves half the time... sometimes 2 elk will get their antlers permanently locked together and they just both die) - and we have a good use for them... so yeah, we'll take that please!

We get medicine, they get great food, excellent healthcare, and protection from danger. ;D

EDIT: Oh, and if one of them really pissed us off (like the one that was always trying to murder my mom...) then it ends up in our freezer, now tasty snacks.

Tiwas
04-19-2011, 06:43 PM
AToE: You do know it's really hard for me not to make a comment along the lines of "mmmm...dead elk"?

I should live with a vegan chick - I'd eat her meat, and she'd get my veggies :D

Smarrikåka
04-19-2011, 06:48 PM
So, what's "left"? Now that we're done discussing the "right" way of taking care of animals?

AToE
04-19-2011, 07:00 PM
AToE: You do know it's really hard for me not to make a comment along the lines of "mmmm...dead elk"?


Man, it's hard for ME to not make a comment along those lines too! Elk is far superior to beef in my opinion, tastes great!

mccann51
04-20-2011, 11:44 AM
Man, it's hard for ME to not make a comment along those lines too! Elk is far superior to beef in my opinion, tastes great!

Along similar lines, it's unfortunate that midwest prairie ranchers don't take up buffalo instead of cattle. Buffalo meat is delicious, and buffalo feed on native grasses and such, meaning a more "natural" prairie ecosystem.

AToE
04-20-2011, 12:30 PM
Along similar lines, it's unfortunate that midwest prairie ranchers don't take up buffalo instead of cattle. Buffalo meat is delicious, and buffalo feed on native grasses and such, meaning a more "natural" prairie ecosystem.

One thing I love about bison too is that there simply is no such thing as factory farmed bison (same with elk) so it's not such a crapshoot when you're trying to buy free range meat.

skunkboy
04-20-2011, 06:43 PM
Along similar lines, it's unfortunate that midwest prairie ranchers don't take up buffalo instead of cattle. Buffalo meat is delicious, and buffalo feed on native grasses and such, meaning a more "natural" prairie ecosystem.

I thought that Buffalo was very lean, and most people would find it different/difficult to cook with? Beefallo was supposed to be all the rage about now...

AToE
04-20-2011, 06:46 PM
Bison, elk, deer, they're all a lot leaner than beef, and yes do require some adjusted cooking style. They also are a bit of an aquired taste, beef doesn't have a whole lot of flavour other than fat, whereas the other "game" meats have tons more flavour of their own, takes a little getting used to - it's definitely not to everyone's tastes.

Tiwas
04-21-2011, 01:04 PM
My girlfriend's native Norwegian (same "race" as inuit and american indians), and we grew up up north (think "northern part of Greenland") so...I *love* elk, (rain)deer, bear, wild boar. It's SO much better than beef, and...it's got personality.

AToE
04-21-2011, 02:39 PM
My girlfriend's native Norwegian (same "race" as inuit and american indians), and we grew up up north (think "northern part of Greenland") so...I *love* elk, (rain)deer, bear, wild boar. It's SO much better than beef, and...it's got personality.

Same ethnicity as the natives from this continent? You guys seem way way too far west for that, our natives are basically north-asian in descent (and look it). Are native Norwegians really that asian looking?

Tiwas
04-21-2011, 03:18 PM
Same ethnicity as the natives from this continent? You guys seem way way too far west for that, our natives are basically north-asian in descent (and look it). Are native Norwegians really that asian looking?

Thanks for correcting me - I'll try to remember to use "ethnicity" next time ;)

If I'm not mistaken, that people came up through Russia, divided up and either moved west or crossed over the straight (sp?) into N.A. Native Scandinavians (and people from northern Russia) all have the same complexion, slanted eyes, high cheek bones etc etc that the Inuits and Indians have.

AToE
04-21-2011, 03:28 PM
Thanks for correcting me - I'll try to remember to use "ethnicity" next time ;)

If I'm not mistaken, that people came up through Russia, divided up and either moved west or crossed over the straight (sp?) into N.A. Native Scandinavians (and people from northern Russia) all have the same complexion, slanted eyes, high cheek bones etc etc that the Inuits and Indians have.

I'd just never heard of a big westward migration out of north asia like that, but I guess it makes sense (and it's easy to miss a migration or two in our history, especially since it goes back so many tens of thousands of years!).

I'd never heard of people from Scandinavia looking asian, but hey, you learn something new every day!

Smarrikåka
04-21-2011, 04:02 PM
They don't really look asian. But they do probably have the same heritage. I'm assuming it's the Sami people that's being discussed btw.

AToE
04-21-2011, 04:07 PM
I'd say too that "same ethnicity" is going way too far, considering we're talking about between 15,000 and 20,000 years of seperation here - even the Inuit and other NA natives would be considered several different ethnicities (they all look radically different from each other too, a Heida person looks nothing like a Cree, or Nakota, let alone something further south, like Mohawk).

AToE
04-21-2011, 04:13 PM
They don't really look asian. But they do probably have the same heritage. I'm assuming it's the Sami people that's being discussed btw.

I just looked up the Sami, and they definitely do look like they've got asian ancestry to at least some degree. The similarity to some of our native peoples is fairly strong (not strong enough that I'd guess they'd been seperated recently, but strong enough to guess that they're more closely related than say a NA Native and an Indian or something).

It's weird that asian features ended up in the far north of Europe like that, I'd love to see the migration paths on a map.

To get those kinds of features in Russians (who you'd think would be similar, since they occupy all the land between the two places) you have to travel pretty far east towards Mongolia.

Totally strange, I love it.

AToE
04-21-2011, 04:27 PM
A quick bit of interneting and it looks like Tiwas is right, the Sami are thought to be in part of Siberian origin, this is based on both linguistics and DNA work. They're not really like the American Natives though, who are wholly of Asian descent - the Sami (apparently) have a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds from Siberian to regular "white" European and peoples inbetween (which makes sense, they were never isolated from Europe the same way the Americans were). So I guess Sami are more of a hybrid, whereas Native Americans are simply population isolation leading to eventual phenotype differences.

That's totally cool, I've never heard of a migration out of Asian across the north to finally end up right on top of Europe. I don't know why, but this makes me smile. :) I love learning about what our ancestors were up to, those crazy buggers seemed willing to live just about anywhere, cross any sea, do just about anything!

(Can you imagine the first MANIACS to paddle across the Pacific to get to New Zealand, or Hawaii? Those people must have been just totally insane! I salute that!)

AToE
04-21-2011, 04:39 PM
Man, sorry for all the double posting, but this piqued my interest and got me digging into the ethnic background of Ukrainians, because I've always looked at the Ukrainian side of my family and thought to myself that they really seriously looked Arab (the men, not really the women). And sure enough, with some quick internet digging I find that Ukraine was not only at nearly the center of where the indo-europeans split up, there is also evidence that several of the earlier Ukrainian ethnicities may have in fact been migrants from Iran.

Also, DNA work shows close ties with Poland, Russian (neither of those are surprising) and the Indian subcontinent (obviously most europeans are fairly closely related to Indians, but this is apparently above and beyond that).

I've just barely scratched the surface, but I'm going to have plenty of stuff to read on this, totally interesting.

What I find funny isn't so much that there's that close relation with the Middle East and India (makes sense, they are kind of in the middle, well, north of the middle...), it's that I totally had a hunch about that, just based on the fact that my grandpa looks almost exactly like Saddam Hussien!

ken_schramm
04-21-2011, 08:32 PM
I find this stuff really compelling.

These two resources are pretty fascinating:

Journey of Mankind (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/)

The page is is interesting, but all of these theories are under constant revision and attack, and they are all obliged to defend themselves and react to the newest evidence as it presents itself. Still, very intriguing.

LANGUAGES AND LEGENDS; THE MOTHER TONGUE, MIGRATIONS, AND MYTHS: (http://www.zianet.com/docdavey/default.htm)

I have spoken with Dr. Davey, and he is one of the most impressive individuals with whom I have had the chance to speak and correspond. He worked at Los Alamos, is the author of"Techniques in Fast Reactor Critical Experiments" (uh, yeah, that kind of reactor), is knowledgeable with more languages than one can imagine a single person can grasp, and has studied mythology extensively. There is much to be said for the use of language development as evidence of human migration and interaction, and his is some mind-boggling material. He is a genuine heavyweight. Perhaps we should invite him over for some discourse.

Ken

AToE
04-21-2011, 08:45 PM
Ha, as soon as we started down this path I thought you might be tempted to jump in!

I doubt we'll ever really know a lot of our history from before we were writing the stuff down, but between genetics and linguistics we certainly have a good chance of getting some of it figured out (and people seem to be making great headway so far).

Of course, who knows what % we'll figure out, being that we're talking about a lot of years here, depending on how far back we go, into 5 digits or 6. ;)

Tiwas
04-21-2011, 08:52 PM
AToE: There are basically two paths of migration into Europe and NA, as far as I know - from Africa, straight up through Europe, and From Africa, though Asia, Russia, and then into NA/Northern Scandinavia. This is based on Africa as the origin of the first humans.

Smarrikåka: I'm talking about the sami, yes. They don't look like they just got out of a plane from Hong Kong, but they do have the same features. I guess, like AToE points out, that the Sami, as they look now, have had more contact, and thus more mating with, white europeans, and thus have more european features than some of the other people that migrated east. For some reason, I believe the Inuit and NA Indians have been more isolated.

Ken: that would be really cool. I love looking at both the original meanings of words (the coolest yet is "berserker", where "ber" is the origin for "bear" (now "bjørn") and "serk" is "clothing" - so...dressed in a bear skin instead of armor) and the paths and origin of words (yuletide - juletid (christmas time, in most scandinavian languages). The English "y" and scandinavian "j" are pronounced almost the same). Does he have anything online ?

ken_schramm
04-22-2011, 12:46 AM
Yes, the title is a link, and the page unfolds from there. Sorry about the formatting; somehow the underline to indicate the link had a mind of its own.

Dr. Davey told me he also has a few things on Amazon as Kindle books.

KDS

AToE
04-22-2011, 01:33 AM
[QUOTE=Tiwas;165486]AToE: There are basically two paths of migration into Europe and NA, as far as I know - from Africa, straight up through Europe, and From Africa, though Asia, Russia, and then into NA/Northern Scandinavia. This is based on Africa as the origin of the first humans.

Oh it makes total sense now that I think about it, people go back and forth all over the place and always have (no reason for people to have just migrated ever further from Africa without ever looping back around, especially since back then our population was so tiny, it's hardly like you'd be looping back onto heavily occupied ground).

What has me so surprised about the Sami isn't that they turned around back towards Europe (thought this did surprise me a bit, and I guess it's not really "back" to those people, as I believe the original migration to Asia out of Africa followed the coastline roughly, around the south... so I guess it's more like "up and around" than "back" ;D).

What surprised me was that they maintained a unique ethnic look about them that is fairly distinct from the rest of Europe. Of course, there are many ethnicities in Europe that look plenty different, but I'm surprised that after so long, with so much interbreeding with even-more-native-Europeans ("caucasians" would have been there even before the Sami's came there I'd imagine?) that they maintained a fair bit of a North Asian look about them. I'm surprised they didn't just end up looking totally European.


Smarrikåka: I'm talking about the sami, yes. They don't look like they just got out of a plane from Hong Kong, but they do have the same features. I guess, like AToE points out, that the Sami, as they look now, have had more contact, and thus more mating with, white europeans, and thus have more european features than some of the other people that migrated east. For some reason, I believe the Inuit and NA Indians have been more isolated.

The Sami definitely have clear Asian features, but they're also clearly the features of people who've been seperated for a long time from Asia, not like if you take a half Japanese half German person or something.

Yeah, definitely for "some reason" the people's of North and South America definitely were more isolated! (It's kinda funny actually, I guess a Native from the tip of South America would be the descendant of the people who travelled the absolute furthest from our home in Africa...).


Speaking of our place of origin as a species, I'm super excited, me and my ex are going on a trip to Ethiopia this summer. I figured I might as well start my travels in the place where it all really did start!

Tiwas
04-22-2011, 04:01 AM
Speaking of our place of origin as a species, I'm super excited, me and my ex are going on a trip to Ethiopia this summer. I figured I might as well start my travels in the place where it all really did start!

Sounds like a cool journey - but...it seems more and more scientists are going away from Ethiopia as "the cradle" ;)

AToE
04-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Sounds like a cool journey - but...it seems more and more scientists are going away from Ethiopia as "the cradle" ;)

From what I've read there's been some dispute over thsi for a very long time, not just recently, but that's still considered the most likely area by most scientists as far as I know. Doesn't really matter - it's in the general vicinity. v;D

wildoates
04-23-2011, 12:30 AM
They've got a lot of really old hominids from several areas of Africa, but as far as I know the oldest ones are still the ones Tim White found a few years ago--he doesn't have much of the really old hominids and they're fragmentary, but if I know Tim he'll find more. He's persistent.

wildoates
04-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Oh in Ethiopia. :)

TheAlchemist
04-23-2011, 12:42 PM
I'd just never heard of a big westward migration out of north asia like that, but I guess it makes sense (and it's easy to miss a migration or two in our history, especially since it goes back so many tens of thousands of years!).

I'd never heard of people from Scandinavia looking asian, but hey, you learn something new every day!

Land Bridge Theory

TheAlchemist
04-23-2011, 12:48 PM
...Perhaps we should invite him over for some discourse.

Ken

Bring on the discourse! Invite Dr Davey over to gotmead. We'd love for him to weigh-in.

AToE
04-23-2011, 10:55 PM
Land Bridge Theory

That's going to North America though isn't it? I don't see any real impediment going from Siberia back east to Europe, my surprise wasn't that they made it over there or how, just that they remained so Asian looking after so very long sitting right next to caucasians.

ken_schramm
05-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Bring on the discourse! Invite Dr Davey over to gotmead. We'd love for him to weigh-in.

I asked, but the good Doctor is busy getting more transcripts ready for publishing on Kindle.

Ken

TheAlchemist
10-22-2011, 10:32 AM
Any more southpaws among our newer subscribers?

ZwolfUpir
10-22-2011, 11:57 AM
My Grandpa was and he used to tell me, "The left side of the brain control's the right side of the body and vice-versa. So, only left handed people are in their right mind."

Midnight Sun
10-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Not a new subscriber, but somehow missed this thread the first time around.

Anyway, I am a southpaw. There are a few exceptions, however: scissors, computers, and cooking/eating utensils.

In my elementary school there were no left handed scissors. Not quite sure where the right-handedness while using computers comes from :confused:. As far as eating and cooking, it does get annoying bumping elbows with the person next to you when seating in close proximity.

There was some earlier discussion on a higher injury and lower life expectancy among southpaws. With regard to electrical workers, this is a real concern. The heart is placed somewhat to the left side of the body, so lefties are at greater risk of electrocution. Additionally, most people in my region wear their wedding ring on the left hand. On the occasion that I need to get into electrical equipment during work, I am extra careful to remove my ring before touching anything.

Chevette Girl
10-22-2011, 05:36 PM
Not quite sure where the right-handedness while using computers comes from :confused:. As far as eating and cooking, it does get annoying bumping elbows with the person next to you when seating in close proximity.

Yep, you learn to stake out the "lefty corner" at the restaurant table early :)

I am mostly lefty but wear watch on left wrist (my completely lefty dad did too) and use mouse with right hand... for some reason my left hand cannot figure out the left and right mouse buttons, instant death in Minesweeper... although my right thumb is too dumb to work a trackball, I'm good with one that's used by fingers. Wedding ring's on right hand because I have an engineer's iron ring on the smallest finger of my working hand and the iron ring will eat anything next to it...

Apparently _aside_ from electrical stuff, lefties don't actually have a decreased life expectancy due to injury etc., I told a friend that study I'd seen and he went and looked it up, that study I'd read wasn't done properly and was eventually retracted.

Tiwas
10-22-2011, 05:45 PM
Mignight Sun: You need to go full ambidextrous. It rules :D I also use a right handed mouse, and I have no idea if I eat like a leftie or a rightie. When other people rearrange their plate or turn it, I just switch hands. Don't even think about it :)

Chevette Girl
10-22-2011, 05:51 PM
... my right hand is WAY too stupid to use chopsticks... maybe a fork, but I always stake out the "lefty corner" out of habit anyway :) But ambi definitely rocks. I do a lot of things equally badly with both hands :p

Tiwas
10-22-2011, 05:57 PM
... my right hand is WAY too stupid to use chopsticks... maybe a fork, but I always stake out the "lefty corner" out of habit anyway :) But ambi definitely rocks. I do a lot of things equally badly with both hands :p

hehehe...My ambidextrosity (??) is engrained (?? again) from years with judo. Always had to learn it like a rightie, then use techniques in either direction in competition. Now, I seldom think about which hand I learn to do things with, but it's easier to lern south paw - but it stick just as well wrong paw :p

mccann51
10-22-2011, 11:23 PM
hehehe...My ambidextrosity (??) is engrained (?? again) from years with judo. Always had to learn it like a rightie, then use techniques in either direction in competition. Now, I seldom think about which hand I learn to do things with, but it's easier to lern south paw - but it stick just as well wrong paw :p

My judo sensei was very right-sided in the way he taught us, as well; it drove me nuts. I always made a special effort to do things with my left because of this.

Chevette Girl
10-23-2011, 12:27 AM
I find Aikido is very equal-sided (except when you get to sword work), but I also find that my left side is stupid about doing some things and my right side stupid about other things. As I said, equally bad on both sides :p I'm just often better at whichever hand I USUALLY do something with, I learned crocheting rightie but switched to left now left is faster than right. When I ride my pony one-handed, it's with the reins in the right hand so my left hand is free should I need to do something requiring dexterity...

caffeine211
10-23-2011, 02:23 PM
I guess I'd be right dominant ambi... I do most things right handed, but I play a lot of sports, cards and a few other things lefty. I used to use a mouse lefty and I play most video games on the "southpaw" stick layout...

AToE
10-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Sadly right handed, my left hand is really good on a guitar, and that's about all it's good for. :(

Tiwas
10-23-2011, 05:45 PM
I guess I'd be right dominant ambi... I do most things right handed, but I play a lot of sports, cards and a few other things lefty. I used to use a mouse lefty and I play most video games on the "southpaw" stick layout...

Are you sure? I don't have any references for this, but I read it's not possible for a rightie to be ambidextrous. You're sure it's not the environment making you use your right hand more than natural?

Chevette Girl
10-23-2011, 06:00 PM
Are you sure? I don't have any references for this, but I read it's not possible for a rightie to be ambidextrous. You're sure it's not the environment making you use your right hand more than natural?

My mom's a right-dominant ambi, and my dad was total and complete lefty. I don't see any reason why if lefties can be ambi why righties couldn't, wikipedia calls it cross-dominance... although I guess there is something to be said for environment. I was on the track and field team for years and I never did figure out whether I did high-jump left or right... but I use a two-handed sword right-handed because there are no lefthanded Japanese swordsmen so there is no training for it. I do fight either way when I'm going sword and shield though. Neither one feels awkward because I do them both. Although sometimes we do have to come up with variations on techniques when you and your opponent are mirror-image rather than same-side forward.

Tiwas
10-23-2011, 06:03 PM
My mom's a right-dominant ambi, and my dad was total and complete lefty. I don't see any reason why if lefties can be ambi why righties couldn't, wikipedia calls it cross-dominance... although I guess there is something to be said for environment. I was on the track and field team for years and I never did figure out whether I did high-jump left or right... but I use a two-handed sword right-handed because there are no lefthanded Japanese swordsmen so there is no training for it. I do fight either way when I'm going sword and shield though. Neither one feels awkward because I do them both. Although sometimes we do have to come up with variations on techniques when you and your opponent are mirror-image rather than same-side forward.

I have no idea why the researchers said what they said - they just did :)

Anyway - you should try switching. I do some sword training myself (double edged, mostly viking swords) and it's just hilarious how bad even the best masters are when all of a sudden you're on the wrong side of them with the blad to their throat - and they have no idea how to parry :D

Chevette Girl
10-23-2011, 06:34 PM
Anyway - you should try switching. I do some sword training myself (double edged, mostly viking swords) and it's just hilarious how bad even the best masters are when all of a sudden you're on the wrong side of them with the blad to their throat - and they have no idea how to parry :D

I bet it ticks them off to no end! But I only do Iaido (katas only) with two-handed sword and I'm never against a real opponent anyway. We do occasionally switch sides just to remind ourselves what it was like to be beginners though! If I ever start training with European two-hand blades I will definitely cross-train though. I just prefer to have a shield to hide behind, and I want to be GOOD at that instead of merely passable, before I take on another style.

Midnight Sun
10-23-2011, 11:55 PM
Mignight Sun: You need to go full ambidextrous. It rules :D I also use a right handed mouse, and I have no idea if I eat like a leftie or a rightie. When other people rearrange their plate or turn it, I just switch hands. Don't even think about it :)

Sorry, I should have been more clear: ambidextrous with eating and cooking.

As far as swords go, I trained in hapkido for a while, but not much sword work. Lots of knife training, though. Yeah, it was very handy to be able to switch back and forth. The instructor forced you to learn, even if you never got very proficient. Also, there were grab/cut combinations, so both hands got a good workout.