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mccann51
08-18-2011, 03:12 PM
Since I started brewing last Oct, I've begun to take a strong interest in not just fermented (alcoholic) beverages, but fermented food and drinks in general.

Kimchi and kombucha are the only two I've dabbled in outside of mead and beer, though I'm hoping to delve deeper ("we have to go deeper") into fermented edibles. Right now, sourdough bread and the whey brew (either w kefir or yogurt, or both, my sour lactomel being the prototype) are on the immediate horizon for me.

I was hoping this thread could be something of a reference for fermented edibles in general. Searching for information online about fermented foods often brings up a huge amount of dissociated info. Being that we have such a varied, experimental, and passionate group of users here at Gotmead.com (whose fermented-adventures, I know from reading peoples' posts, does not stop at mead, beer, and wine), I figured if we all brought a little to the table, we could have a nice jump off point for a lot of different fermented edibles.

Here are the Wikipedia articles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_%28food%29) on fermented foods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fermented_foods) and drinks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fermented_beverages), which I found a valuable resource in simply making me aware of the great variety of fermented traditions there are. As well, here is Akueck's kombucha thread (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17984) and the Mad Fermentationist's kombucha blog post (http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/02/i-realize-that-many-people-have-never.html) (his blog in general has a lot of great info on fermented edibles), which I feel provide a very solid start for kombucha brewing.

For kimchi, my girl and I have been using a recipe from Taste of the East by Mark Reinfeld and Jennifer Murray. Looking online, this seems like a pretty standard recipe. I don't have too much experience with eating kimchi, but the stuff we're producing is very tasty; others have enjoyed it too. Adapted from the book:

For 4 to 6 cups,
1 large head green or napa cabbage (we've used green, but I think napa is the traditional)
2 tablespoons sea salt, or to taste (the salt inhibits bacterial growth; Lactobacillus is very saline tolerant, so this is the active organism in kimchi ferments)
0.25 cup minced garlic
2 inches peeled and minced ginger
1 minced and seeded hot pepper
1 tablespoon ground hot chile powder, or to taste
1 tablespoon unpasteurized miso paste, optional (we've always used miso)
1 tablespoon agave nectar, Sucanat, or sugar (or why not honey?)
1 cup diced mixed vegetables, optional (carrots and onions are our mainstay for this, but you can pretty much use any vegetable from my understanding; looking forward to trying it with broccoli)
1 cup water

1. rinse cabbage (and vegetables) well and remove outer leaves and roots (save outer leaves for later use). Chop the remaining leaves into 0.5 inch strips and place in 2-quart jar. Add 1-2 tablespoons of salt and fill with water. Allow to site for 1-2 hours.
2. Combine remaining salt and all other ingredients in a bowl with just enough water to create a creamy paste.
3. Drain and rinse the cabbage (and vegetables) well. Add to bowl with paste. Mix until everything is well coated.
4. Return mix to mason jar, add water to cover, and top with the outer cabbage leaves. Loosely place cover on jar to allow for gas escape. Allow jar to sit at room temp for 3-5 days (to taste, also depends on ambient temps). Place in fridge where it will continue to ferment (the taste will alter as time passes).

This is definitely not a definitive recipe, but it works great and is a good starting place for experimenting. We've done some alterations, and friends have done slightly different procedures with slightly different ingredients, all good. Like brewing, there's a lot of room for variation.



So, please, add your recipes (yogurt, sourdough, dairy kefir, tibicos [aka water kefir], kumis, sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha, ginger beer, vinegar, miso, cheese, tempeh, natto, etc, etc), your thoughts, your experiences, your ideas, whatever.

AToE
08-18-2011, 04:23 PM
One of my favourite all time foods is tempeh, I've got packets of start cultures ready to go, I just have to get my hands on a pile of soybeans and get started. Once I get some basic ones done I'm going to start smoking them (smoked tempeh is seriously one of the best food products ever) and experimenting with adding ingredients.

It gets dangerous though, because under similar conditions to those that the tempeh mould grows in, also some deadly things can grow - usually this happens if you add something like coconut into the mix.

For those who haven't had it, tempeh is (I believe) the only traditional soy product that didn't originate in China or Japan, it is from Indonesia - and it is awesome. It's soybeans cooked (never eat raw soy, poison) then fermented with a special mould, which grows and connects all the beans together into a cake of sorts (it doesn't seem like mould, it just seems like more soybean that's connecting the beans, but it ain't!). Also don't eat raw tempeh, bad idea.

It's fantastic, it's deep and nutty flavoured, almost mushroomlike in some ways. Higher in protein than any tofu (because it uses the whole bean), high fibre, high nutrients, has some extra nutrients added by the mould... it's seriously just too die for. I like to cut it into strips then fry it in oil and serve it on stirfry, or in a salad (great in ceasar salads), or use it as the "meat" in a sandwich... can't say enough good things about the stuff! ;D

Chevette Girl
08-18-2011, 08:53 PM
Huh, I'll have to see if the Asian superstore carries tempeh.

Back before I neglected my starter to death, I did sourdough breads for about a year before I mostly stopped making breads at all (hence the starter's neglect). If you've made bread before you'll have a general idea of the consistency well-kneaded dough is supposed to have. I'd start with a cup of starter and a cup of warm water and mix in a cup of flour and let it sit somewhere warm for a couple hours till I know it's working, then I add flour to the right consistency and knead the heck out of it, cover and place somewhere warm until doubled in size (I like turning the oven on just till the element's red then turning it off and turning hte interior light on, that keeps enough heat that it's perfect for rising bread), punch it down and then usually I have to add a little more flour (maybe 1/4 cup but it differs) because the yeast actually digests the flour and everything ends up stickier, or so I've found, put it in two loaf pans, cover with waxed paper or parchment paper, let rise again, then bake till they're done (usually about 1 min after my oversensitive smoke detector starts blaring, handy, if annoying). let cool until you can handle the pans and then turn out onto rack, don't put into plastic bags until it's all the way cool.

I like using about half and half white and whole wheat, I start with a cup of whole wheat for the first part so the yeast chews on it for the longest.

AToE
08-18-2011, 09:07 PM
[COLOR="Purple"]Huh, I'll have to see if the Asian superstore carries tempeh.


If they don't then just go to superstore, should be in the cooler with the vegan cheese, free range eggs, stuff like that. They'll probably only have it marinated in something, but it'll still give you a really good idea of what it's like... it's a very hard to describe taste... subtly tangy nut-mushroom-beef?

wildoates
08-18-2011, 09:09 PM
One of my first batches of mead was pumpkin, and I ended up with way too much mead-infused pumpkIn to just toss, so I froze it in ziplocks. I use it just like I would canned pumpkin in any pumpkin bread recipe, decreasing the liquid by a bit and adding a bit more sugar to compensate for the lack of it in the fermented pumpkin pulp. Top it with a streusel topping, bake, and voila! Drunk Pumpkin muffins or bread.

Not for children. Sometime I am going to try alcoholizing regular canned pumpkin by adding some rum and trying that as well. Why the heck not?!

:)

AToE
08-18-2011, 09:15 PM
Good idea.

I'd love to make my own kim chi (spelling?...), on the list of things to try some day.

TheAlchemist
08-18-2011, 09:15 PM
Top it with a streusel topping, bake, and voila! Drunk Pumpkin muffins or bread...Not for children.
:)

But if you've baked your drunkenPumpkinTreat, there shouldn't actually be any EtOH left, just the yummy essence of EtOH.

AToE
08-18-2011, 09:17 PM
But if you've baked your drunkenPumpkinTreat, there shouldn't actually be any EtOH left, just the yummy essence of EtOH.

Cooking out alcohol is actually pretty difficult to do, takes a long time and it's never really all gone (which is why even de-alcoholized beer is still 0.5% ABV).

EDIT: That said, the small amount in something like this should be fine for anyone, not likely to get anyone tipsy!

wildoates
08-18-2011, 09:18 PM
It loses some, no doubt, but not all. :)

Brimminghorn
08-18-2011, 09:45 PM
I make sauerkraut every year usually 30 to 40 lbs worth.To every 5 lbs of cabbage I add 3 Tblsp. pickling or sea salt. I like to add a few juniper berries to the mix as well for extra flavor.

Jon.

ZwolfUpir
08-19-2011, 12:40 AM
I made a jam from the fermented peach and ginger from the mead I recently made. It's rather good and I'm fairly sure dang near all the alcohol would be out of it for as long as it cooked. I made it sans pectin, so it was incredibly simple to make...

2 c Fermented Fruit and Such
1 1/3 c Sugar
1 Tblsp Lemon Juice
Spices if you like, I through a Cinnamon stick in while boiling down.
2 Tbls of water or what ever, I used some mead

Strain fruit bits over a bowl for about 15 min to get some more of the fluids out. It'd just be boiled off anyways.
Put into medium sauce pot with sugar, lemon juice, water/mead, and spices.
I think it was Julia Child who said, "A little for the pot and a little for me." Though I'm probably wrong, I'm always miss quoting... But yeah, drink off the rest of the mead, only a sip or two came out for me, but waste not want not.
So anyways, now the long part. Stir, stir, stir, and stir some more. I would recommend a silicon scraper spoon thing, makes it easier to get the sticky off the side and stirred in. Do not use a metal spoon, you could scorch your jam. It's at this point you convince one of your kids how much fun it would be to stir the goop. Mine are 17, so they don't fall for it so well...
While this is being stired, and please remember to stir since you don't want it burnt and stuck to the bottom, get some spoons in the fridge to chill. You'll be stirring a while so be patient. When it's starting to look thick and... well... jammy grab one of those spoons and scoop a bit out. You'll need to be quick and don't scoop to much cause you'll heat your spoon up to much. What your doing is called the spoon test and what your looking for is for it to stay blobed like jam should lookish. I say lookish cause the stuff you buy in the store has pectin and doesn't get cooked this long nor will this firm up as much as the store stuff.
When your done you will, at least i did, end up with something that your mead will taste like with an extra carmely nuttyness to it for the prolonged cooking. Oh! Almost forgot, you cook it on medium heat, like 5 or 6 depending on your stove.
I got 1 and 3/4 pints... or half pints... I dunno, the jelly jar size... My wife does the canning and would know the size but she's asleep. But I did the recipe with 2 cups cause that's all the fruit my batch produced, but you can scale up just fine. Though you will be stirring longer since more stuff in the pot.
Thinking about adding some of the lees next time for the vitaminy goodness.

mccann51
08-19-2011, 02:04 AM
Haven't had tempeh in years, and I don't have an distinct memories of it. When I learned it was fermented, though, I knew I had to go back, haha. Do you have a recipe you could post?



It gets dangerous though, because under similar conditions to those that the tempeh mould grows in, also some deadly things can grow - usually this happens if you add something like coconut into the mix.


Any idea of what the indicators are for it going bad?

I've always been a bit on the prudish side in terms of questionable food due to a weak stomach growing up. As I'm getting older, though, I realize that questionable food is the best way to "exercise" said stomach (this "exercise" reasoning is also a favorite excuse of mine for drinking; gotta keep the ol liver on it's game). I've also been coming to the realization that we've gotten this far without refrigeration, how'd we do that except by relying on our olfactory system and certain hardwired responses to this-or-that scent (certain odors I don't feel one needs to learn to dislike). I now trust my nose if I'm gonna try something, if it's not an obvious objectionable odor, I take a nibble. If it passes the taste-bud test, then I figure my yeast and bacteria happy belly can take care of it. Haven't had a noticeable issue since implementing this approach.



ZwolfUpir, I like the idea of making jam from the spent fruit from a ferment. Of all the the crap I throw away after fermentation, the spent fruit always seems the thing I should most be using for something else (I usually throw it in the fridge thinking I'll get around to using it, and throw it out a few weeks later; it still smells good, haha, but it just seems like a lost cause at that point).

AToE
08-19-2011, 02:38 AM
I don't think there's really a recipe to basic tempeh, you need the specific starter culture (can be ordered online) and then I think you boil the shelled soy beans, squeeze them to break them all in half, then their skins float up and you get rid of all those, then strain the beans. Then you add a little vinegar to get the pH right for tempeh-mould and wrong for bad-mould, mix the starter in thoroughly - put it in ziplock bags with a zillion holes punched in them, and let it ferment at a certain (very warm) temp for a day or two...

... I'd recommend reading an online tutorial to get it right though.

If you make it with just soy beans, right temp and such it should be safe, just don't eat it raw. The kind with coconut is actually illegal in Indonesia now (people still make it at home though sometimes) because it's seriously dangerous, whatever that coconut can make grow will kill you dead!

JSquared
08-19-2011, 03:55 AM
I'm all for this kind of thing. I have a crock of pickles fermenting right now. Kefir in the fridge. Also love making sauerkraut, tons of different pickles, and of course cheese!

I love making cheese, last one I did was a really good cows milk blue. Also love Charcuterie! it has a close relationship to fermentation/bacterial foods. Hanging and aging salumi and hams and such are brothers to cultured foods, walking hand in hand... Ok now I'm hungry.

ZwolfUpir
08-19-2011, 06:57 AM
...(I usually throw it in the fridge thinking I'll get around to using it, and throw it out a few weeks later; it still smells good, haha, but it just seems like a lost cause at that point).

That's the best part. By the time I'm done racking over I have noooo interest in stirring up a batch of jam so I put it in the fridge. I can come back to it much latter because of the alcohol in it keeps it preserved. I'm not sure how long would be too long to keep it, but this first clump of used fruit sat in the fridge long enough for wifey to nag me on it a bit, so I'm figuring a week or so between rack and jam. :D

TheAlchemist
08-19-2011, 09:18 AM
I make sauerkraut every year usually 30 to 40 lbs worth.To every 5 lbs of cabbage I add 3 Tblsp. pickling or sea salt. I like to add a few juniper berries to the mix as well for extra flavor.

Jon.

Juniper Berries! Definitely worth a try!

mccann51
08-19-2011, 12:01 PM
I'm all for this kind of thing. I have a crock of pickles fermenting right now. Kefir in the fridge. Also love making sauerkraut, tons of different pickles, and of course cheese!


Could you extrapolate on the cheese ferment? I've read about cultured cheese, but know nothing about it.

Braxton
08-19-2011, 02:49 PM
I also love making fermented foods. I learned largely from the book "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Katz. My favorite book on food. There is a good section on making tempeh in there. A friend of mine has a small cottage industry making tempeh, and the fresh stuff is incredible.

I enjoy juniper berries in sauerkraut, too. I also love caraway, but it is not for everyone. The kimchi I've made with napa cabbage has been a lot better than the stuff I've made with the big heads of cabbage, in my opinion.

One thing I love to make is lacto-fermented hot sauce. I buy a variety of hot peppers in the fall, food process them up with the seeds and some garlic, then put them in a salt brine with a weight to keep them submerged. It makes a really nice and nuanced hot sauce, better than I think I would get by using vinegar.

JSquared
08-19-2011, 02:50 PM
Could you extrapolate on the cheese ferment? I've read about cultured cheese, but know nothing about it.

Its cultured cheese, most cheese has a bacterial culture added and then some also have mold as well (blue, white, or red) depending on the style of cheese you are making. So its all about microscopic little friends doing the work to make something delicious.

AToE
08-19-2011, 03:03 PM
"Fermentation" when applied outside of alcohol production (or even within making booze, look at MLF) is a pretty wide term, more of a "microbes ate something in this and turned it into something else which is tasty" kind of a definition, rather than a strict scientific definition.

ZwolfUpir
08-19-2011, 03:26 PM
I also love making fermented foods. I learned largely from the book "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Katz. ... One thing I love to make is lacto-fermented hot sauce. I buy a variety of hot peppers in the fall, food process them up with the seeds and some garlic, then put them in a salt brine with a weight to keep them submerged. It makes a really nice and nuanced hot sauce, better than I think I would get by using vinegar.

I so want that book. Picked it up at the library once and loved it.

Would you be willing to expand on your hot sauce recipe there? My boys love hot... well... everything. Going to make a flaming hot chili mead for them in a year or two so for when they turn 21.

mccann51
08-20-2011, 02:18 PM
I also love making fermented foods. I learned largely from the book "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Katz. My favorite book on food. There is a good section on making tempeh in there. A friend of mine has a small cottage industry making tempeh, and the fresh stuff is incredible.

I enjoy juniper berries in sauerkraut, too. I also love caraway, but it is not for everyone. The kimchi I've made with napa cabbage has been a lot better than the stuff I've made with the big heads of cabbage, in my opinion.

One thing I love to make is lacto-fermented hot sauce. I buy a variety of hot peppers in the fall, food process them up with the seeds and some garlic, then put them in a salt brine with a weight to keep them submerged. It makes a really nice and nuanced hot sauce, better than I think I would get by using vinegar.

I'm with ZwolfUpir, please post a recipe! This is a great idea that I'll definitely be trying. I made an impromptu hot sauce recently with some vinegar and it made me realize how easy it would be to produce it all the time. I would have never thought to do it as a ferment.

I've looked into getting that book, or at least checking it out from the library. Glad to hear it comes recommended.


"Fermentation" when applied outside of alcohol production (or even within making booze, look at MLF) is a pretty wide term, more of a "microbes ate something in this and turned it into something else which is tasty" kind of a definition, rather than a strict scientific definition.

"microbes ate something anaerobically in this and turned it into something else which is tasty"

FTFY :D

Though perhaps this doesn't apply to tempeh? Wikipedia here I come...

mccann51
08-20-2011, 02:57 PM
Hmm, reading more about it I have to rescind my "correction". I had assumed all "fermentations" conformed to the biochemical definition, but this doesn't appear to be the case. I guess vinegar production is probably the most obvious example of this.

AToE
08-20-2011, 03:02 PM
<s> "microbes ate something anaerobically in this and turned it into something else which is tasty"


Ha! Well with most "fermented" foods, anaerobic is the case - but if that's what we're using to define the word... then I guess making alcohol isn't fermentation because quite a bit of the "fermenting" actually happens in the presence of O2 which the yeast need.;);D

EDIT: Sorry, figured I should add to that! My cheeky point is that while anaerobic is in the textbook definition, people still use the word to apply to non-anaerobic situations.

mccann51
08-20-2011, 03:46 PM
Ha! Well with most "fermented" foods, anaerobic is the case - but if that's what we're using to define the word... then I guess making alcohol isn't fermentation because quite a bit of the "fermenting" actually happens in the presence of O2 which the yeast need.;);D

EDIT: Sorry, figured I should add to that! My cheeky point is that while anaerobic is in the textbook definition, people still use the word to apply to non-anaerobic situations.

No prob; you are right (see my comment above, I think you were writing when I posted it).

That said, I would argue that fermentation by yeast is still anaerobic: it's not fermenting in an anaerobic environment (because we aerate), but the process of converting sugar-to-alcohol is done sans oxygen, and thus an anaerobic process (least that's my understanding of it).

AToE
08-20-2011, 04:21 PM
No prob; you are right (see my comment above, I think you were writing when I posted it).

That said, I would argue that fermentation by yeast is still anaerobic: it's not fermenting in an anaerobic environment (because we aerate), but the process of converting sugar-to-alcohol is done sans oxygen, and thus an anaerobic process (least that's my understanding of it).

It's a convoluted topic! I honestly have no idea of the chemical reaction of sugar to alcohol, but I know part of it is sugar to CO2 as well, which obviously has O2 involved, and I know the yeast are consuming O2 during at least 1/3-1/2 of the time they're fermenting sugar into alcohol... to be honest it's really not one of my areas of expertise! :D

EDIT: so anyways, I stand by my whacky definition of "microbes ate something and turned it into something tasty"!

mccann51
08-20-2011, 05:34 PM
so anyways, I stand by my whacky definition of "microbes ate something and turned it into something tasty"!

I see your "microbes ate something and turned it into something tasty" and raise you... oh, wait, no, we already did this.

I accept your definition, and henceforth will be the official definition of this thread (since I'm OP and all, I can do stuff like that, haha!). ;)



As for the CO2, since the oxygen is bound it is not oxidatively reactive, and thus anaerobic. I could be wrong on my reasoning and welcome any corrections.

AToE
08-20-2011, 05:42 PM
As for the CO2, since the oxygen is bound it is not oxidatively reactive, and thus anaerobic. I could be wrong on my reasoning and welcome any corrections.

Well, in the fun-ness of debating things neither of seem to be experts on - yes the CO2 has the oxygen bound, but the CO2 is produced during the turning of sugar into alcohol, so it was reacting that made the CO2! That said, wikipedia says alcohol fermentation is anaerobic because it takes place without the presence of oxygen... not sure how you can get a product tht has O2 in it without having O2 though.;) Maybe what they mean is that the O2 starts off bound up in the sugar, then ends up bound in the CO2, so it's never really on it's own? But we know the yeast need and use O2 for a large % of the fermentation...

Well I've confused myself so I'm going to go read wikipedia on the matter for a little bit!

Chevette Girl
08-20-2011, 06:01 PM
Well, in the fun-ness of debating things neither of seem to be experts on - yes the CO2 has the oxygen bound, but the CO2 is produced during the turning of sugar into alcohol, so it was reacting that made the CO2! That said, wikipedia says alcohol fermentation is anaerobic because it takes place without the presence of oxygen... not sure how you can get a product tht has O2 in it without having O2 though.;) Maybe what they mean is that the O2 starts off bound up in the sugar, then ends up bound in the CO2, so it's never really on it's own? But we know the yeast need and use O2 for a large % of the fermentation...

Well I've confused myself so I'm going to go read wikipedia on the matter for a little bit!

I'm going to stick my nose in for a moment and remind people that water contains oxygen, anything that ends in "-oxide" does too and a lot of these things dissociate in water to make ions (including water itself, makes an H+ and an OH-), plus the sugars as well. Plenty of places to get oxygen atoms without it being present as the O2 in our atmosphere.

mccann51
08-20-2011, 06:09 PM
Well, in the fun-ness of debating things neither of seem to be experts on - yes the CO2 has the oxygen bound, but the CO2 is produced during the turning of sugar into alcohol, so it was reacting that made the CO2! That said, wikipedia says alcohol fermentation is anaerobic because it takes place without the presence of oxygen... not sure how you can get a product tht has O2 in it without having O2 though.;) Maybe what they mean is that the O2 starts off bound up in the sugar, then ends up bound in the CO2, so it's never really on it's own?

Definitely in the heart of cooperatively bringing our understanding to a higher level via debate.

Your point about CO2 being a product is well-taken, kinda forgot about that, haha. Yeah, it must be oxygen from the breaking up of the sugars.


But we know the yeast need and use O2 for a large % of the fermentation...


I think it's important to separate the metabolic processes here, and not look at it from the scale of a full life history (of the yeast). For the fermentation of alcohol and CO2 from sugar, the biochemical process is classified as anaerobic, but that doesn't mean that all other metabolic or reproductive processes have to be classified similarly.



Pasteur showed that by bubbling oxygen into the yeast broth, cell growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_growth) could be increased, but fermentation was inhibited – an observation later called the "Pasteur effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteur_effect)".

AToE
08-20-2011, 06:27 PM
I'm going to stick my nose in for a moment and remind people that water contains oxygen, anything that ends in "-oxide" does too and a lot of these things dissociate in water to make ions (including water itself, makes an H+ and an OH-), plus the sugars as well. Plenty of places to get oxygen atoms without it being present as the O2 in our atmosphere.

I know, I was just being a smart ass about the definition of fermentation being in an environment without oxygen when there's clearly oxygen right in the chemical reaction in question! Free O2 is a different matter of course!



I think it's important to separate the metabolic processes here, and not look at it from the scale of a full life history (of the yeast). For the fermentation of alcohol and CO2 from sugar, the biochemical process is classified as anaerobic, but that doesn't mean that all other metabolic or reproductive processes have to be classified similarly.

That's a good point, probably what had me confused. The yeast are using the raw O2, but not in the actual biological process of fermentation.

ZwolfUpir
08-21-2011, 12:03 AM
Listen. I think we are drifting way away from the main focal point that must still be covers... Braxton mentioned a hot sauce recipe that I still haven't seen yet... ;D

TheAlchemist
08-21-2011, 09:25 AM
And I've decided making sauerkraut is on my to-do list for the next head of cabbage my CSA box sends me.

Guinlilly
08-21-2011, 10:40 AM
And I've decided making sauerkraut is on my to-do list for the next head of cabbage my CSA box sends me.

Homemade saurkraut is the only way I eat it now. The store stuff doesn't even compare!

Braxton
08-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Yes, that was a bit of a tangent there. Quickly: my understanding is that yeast actually do create alcohol in their aerobic stage, but through a different pathway than during anaerobic fermentation. This pathway does not produce as much alcohol and is of less interest to the brewer. Usually brewers are interested in the aerobic stage because of ester production and yeast cell reproduction. Yeast fairly quickly consume most of the available oxygen in a solution like water, which means that the majority of time afterwards is dedicated to anaerobic fermentation (at least in the type of fermentation that we commonly do).

Recipe? Uh, I'm not too much of a recipe type of person; even in brewing. The recipe in my head is:

Get fresh peppers. I like to use a 50/50 mix of flavorful peppers (like jalapeno or anaheim) and hot peppers (like thai peppers, or cayenne)
Remove stems and food process, adding water as needed. Toss in peeled cloves of garlic as needed.
Put in a glass vessel and double the volume with salt brine, which is just salty water.
Weigh down solids with a weight of some sort. If fermenting in a jar, a smaller jar sometimes works as a weight. Otherwise, a small plate with a weight on top of it (like a sealed mason jar full of water) can work well.
Cover with a clean cloth and let sit in a dark place at room temperature for a week, then taste. Leave for longer if sourness is not high enough, skimming off any skum on top, then refrigerate when ready.

Because of the hotness of the peppers it seems more stable than other lacto-fermented stuff I've made, and less likely to get mold on it during the fermentation. I would often use this stuff to add heat to a stir fry or thai-style curry, or as a really spicy hot sauce for burritos/tacos.

It's coming around to hot pepper season here in Minnesota, so they are cheap and plentiful at our farmer's markets.

I definitely think that brewing knowledge helps in making fermented foods. I will usually sanitize all my equipment and vessels before making fermented foods, and like to reuse cultures that ferment well and produce good flavors.

mccann51
08-23-2011, 01:55 PM
We have a bunch of peppers right now, so I think I'm gonna give this a try. Considering throwing some cut veggies in just because we need to use everything up since we're moving.

mccann51
09-24-2011, 12:27 PM
Haven't tried the fermented hot sauce yet, unfortunately, soon though.

My girlfriend made some kimchi the other day, but didn't use miso for the first time cause we're out of it. She told me she was reading somewhere on the interweb that kimchi made w miso has a longer shelf-life than kimchi without. I'm having trouble finding anything about that; has anybody here heard of this?

If it's true, I'd guess it has to do w some stabilizing factor of having other micro-organisms in the environment, but not sure.

mccann51
09-24-2011, 12:56 PM
Random: anybody ever heard of mushrooms being fermented, kimchi style?

AToE
09-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Haven't tried the fermented hot sauce yet, unfortunately, soon though.

My girlfriend made some kimchi the other day, but didn't use miso for the first time cause we're out of it. She told me she was reading somewhere on the interweb that kimchi made w miso has a longer shelf-life than kimchi without. I'm having trouble finding anything about that; has anybody here heard of this?

If it's true, I'd guess it has to do w some stabilizing factor of having other micro-organisms in the environment, but not sure.

I would just think it had to do with the acidity and salt in miso, but what do I know, I didn't even know kimchi ever had miso as an ingredient!

TheAlchemist
09-24-2011, 04:44 PM
I'm making lactofermented sauerkraut today!

Chevette Girl
09-24-2011, 06:07 PM
Trying for vinegar with all this apple pulp I'm generating :)

mccann51
09-24-2011, 06:45 PM
Bought some kombucha, kefir, and new carboys today, so fermentation here I come! Got a bunch of 32 oz jugs I'm gonna try making vinegar in. Chevette Girl, how do you make your vinegar?

mccann51
09-25-2011, 12:55 AM
Just brewed two batches of mead, a new batch of kombucha (former culture got left behind), and a batch of kefir. Overall, a very good day for fermentation!

For the kefir, I used cutlure from Organic Pastures Qephor and Redwood Hill Farm Goat Milk Kefir. The Qephor seems like it's more authentic kefir based on descriptions I've read of the taste of kefir, whereas the Redwood Hill Farm one seems more like a yogurt drink. I took about 5 oz of each and put w about 6 oz of raw milk. Placed the cap on the top lightly to allow for gas escape.

Tomorrow I'm try making the lacto-hot sauce w some manzano, serrano, and bell peppers.

Chevette Girl
09-25-2011, 01:35 AM
Bought some kombucha, kefir, and new carboys today, so fermentation here I come! Got a bunch of 32 oz jugs I'm gonna try making vinegar in. Chevette Girl, how do you make your vinegar?

Uh, I'm sort of making a second-run wine out of apple pulp by adding water and sugar and some bread yeast, I figure it'll be somewhere near what fermented apple juice would give for alcohol content, then I plan to strain/press the wine out of the pulp and sit it in a gallon jar with cloth over the mouth, last time I did an experiment like that I did get vinegary smells coming from the uncovered must after leaving it out for a week on my kitchen table. And if that doesn't work within a week, I'm going to go look for Bragg cider with the mother included and dump it in. I did a search on the forum for "cider vinegar" and there were a couple good threads, the most informative one (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7696) was a few years old though but lots of people have done it. And if I mess up the batch, I'm really only out a kilogram of sugar, I can start over again with more of the pulp in the freezer...

jens183
01-31-2012, 04:29 PM
Any body done some "mead/sour mead" with the culture tibicos/water kefir/"ginger beer bug" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibicos) in an anaerobica condition(under an airlock) with honey-wort?

I did some fermentations with "tibicos" about 6 months ago, but only fermented it in an aerobic condition(with air) and did not have focus on developing alcohol in the process.

I was wondering if anybody had any experience with maintaining a tibicos culture healthy in an honey enviroment.
I remember that the culture I had thrived very well in an brown-sugar enviroment(multiplied very much), but I had more problems getting it to thrive(multiply at least) in an honey enviroment(But I did not know that honey have a low nutrient content).

I think that this culture may have a potential to be an easy to maintain(easier than things like kombucha that need oxygen and therefore open to the enviroment) if you can keep it sealed in an air-tight enviroment. + as a bonus if kept airtight it would maybe develop more alcohol than other cultured liquids, but still as little alcohol that you probably can sit around and drink pints of it(If you can get it to around 4% abv).

If the culture is kept healthy you've probably can just use a easy to maintain continous fermentation system and never needing to buy any new culture(just refilling whats taken out).

Ps: this cultures develop into solid visible colonies that can be easily filtered out and reused.

mccann51
01-31-2012, 08:07 PM
I've heard of tibicos and would be interested in fermenting w it, but I don't see it in the stores, and I'm too lazy to order it online. That said, I've often wondered how close in terms of spp composition the different SCOBY types (kefir, kombucha, tibicos, etc) are, and how much the colonies are determined by the spp and how much by the environment (the liquid medium). So, for instance, are most of the spp present in kefir also present in tibicos, but it's the dairy or sugar water that determines what kind of granules are formed and/or what species are dominate within the symbiotic colony?

I have brewed a sour mead w sour culture from a sour beer, though, and I've used honey as the sugar source in kombucha. If you can't find em, I could link the posts, but long-story short, they both turned out alright but nothing I'm hurrying to try again.

!Wine
04-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Was directed here to share my experiences in the fermented foods world... Here's a bunch of information from it. *grin*

Wild Fermentation is a great book. Wildfermentation.com is alive and kicking with additional information. *grin*

The Book of Miso and The Book of Tempeh are VERY informative and highly recommended.

Tempeh! Food of the Gods. *grin*

I make Tempeh according to the book of Tempeh and use various beans. Since all blood types can't eat soy, it helps to know which beans you can use for which people. *grin* (Here's a list of foods and their compatibility with blood types (http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/typeindexer.htm))
Hint: Great Northern Beans are neutral for ALL blood types and makes a super delicious tempeh when fried with just olive oil. *grin* VERY tasty... heheh my 2yr old munches fried pieces for breakfast and loves it.

I've made Kidney bean tempeh for my "B" blood type wife... really needs to be cooked and then used in other foods as a filler. Not bad... just not that palatable to her. Digests really well though ;)

Black bean tempeh! Oooohhhh my goodness! Sucks trying to remove the skins... but daymn is it ever tasty. *grin* A and O blood types only for black beans though... avoid for everyone else.

Soy beans are the easiest to de-hull and is compatible with A and AB blood types... O and B depend on their secretor status (another level of complexity for the blood type diet)

Depending on the bean... and the innoculant you're using... it can take between 24-36 hours to incubate fully. The northern bean creates a really heady alcoholic smell to it. Again... it's damn tasty. *grin*

Hardware stores sell a thermostat controlled outlet... handy when building a dehydrator or incubator. *grin*


Miso! Wow!
If you haven't had homemade miso... you're missing out. Most commercial products are poorly made and the majority of the flavor pressed out to make Shoyu or Soysauce... they sell it separate.
I have a 5 month northern bean miso in the fridge that's almost gone.... the complexity of the flavors are just divine. *grin*
Gonna be on commercial miso for months again. *sigh* My fault for not making more.

Miso is basically steamed rice innoculated with starter, incubated for 3 days and then mixed with steamed or boiled beans and salt. Packed in a crock, a cover and weight are placed on it and the top covered with paper or plastic wrap... fermented until done.

As with tempeh.... the blood type of the person determines the bean you can use with miso so they don't have issues. (Haven't tried kidney bean yet. LOL)
I stick with northern beans for the family, we have A, B and O in the house. LOL
I have yet to sample a black bean miso... can't wait though.

Depending on the amount of Koji (the cultured rice) and salt you add, the miso fermentation process can be as quick as 1 month or as long as 3+ years. The book of Miso author stated they had some 9 year old miso once.... can't even imagine how cool that would be. Imagine the flavor chains that would be created in that time. *grin*

Miso is a very alkaline food. During the fermentation process, the carbs and proteins and flavors are broken down into their base molecules... Drinking a cup of hot water with miso paste stirred into it is like instant nutrition for your body... no need to digest, just absorb! *grin* Better than a cup of coffee, when your diet is clean. *grin*

Saukraut! Kimchi!! Wow!!!
I love the stuff but it jacks my mucus secretions up so high it's outrageous. LOL Not compatible with the A Blood type or with O Non-secretors. Anyone else can eat all they want. :D
The store saurkraut is often made with a chemical process... anything in a can or jar is dead from the canning/jarring process and really isn't much more than flavor and texture. All the beneficials from the fermentation process that would aid digestion are dead. *shrug*

They're very easy to make, recipes abound. The more salt you put in the cabbage... the longer it will take and the more sour the end kraut/Kimchi will be. Too much salt though and nothing will ferment. *grin*


Anyone with health problems will do themselves a world of good by following the blood type food choices.. the more fermented foods, the better. The key is to achive an alkaline state in the body so that your immune system, blood and organs all work at optimum levels.


Tempeh supplies Vitamin B's and carbs/proteins that have been partially broken down already. Much easier to digest and the B vits really help with muscle soreness after a long strenuous day.

Miso, Saurkraut and Kimchi all supply salt resistant enzymes and yeasts that are beneficial for digestion... Not to mention divine flavors. :D

At the end of the day... I drink a glass or two of my wine or mead and I'm good. :D LOL


End result of fermented foods and choosing my foods by blood type?

I'm 41 years old.
I've been following the blood type food choices, on and off, for 10 years.
In the last 2 years I've gotten more and more serious about being strict and in the last 6 months I've achieved it. No processed foods, no foods that are avoid for my blood type. (A secretor)

My digestion is stable and very predictable... 100% reversal from what it used to be.
I feel good after I eat... every time I eat.
I sleep between 4-5 hours a night and HAVE to get up as I have too much energy. Sleeping in is no longer something I can do... LOL
My waistline has dropped to around 27 or 28 inches... (been 28-34 my whole life) I need to buy new pants, I've added 4 notches to my belt, should find out what size I am in the next few weeks.
I live at 2 miles above sea level and can power walk... up and down hills without breaking a sweat. *grin*
I used to be sick at least 3-4 times a year... for a few weeks. I haven't been sick in over a year. LOL Yeah.. maybe the sniffles for a day or two, but nothing that slows me down or that I can really 'feel'. *grin*
My hair and nails are in wonderful condition... for the first time in my life. Started getting strong and healthy as soon as I eliminated all red meat... The A blood type can't handle it. Heh.

Yeah... I highly recommend fermented foods and the blood type food choices for everyone, especially anyone with health issues.

Can't guarantee that I'll be able to respond timely... but I'll definitely, eventually, answer any questions directed to me. lol

Happy Fermenting!

p.s. I tend to wander all over at times... apologies for any confusion. lol

Chevette Girl
04-01-2012, 06:34 PM
I read the "eat right for your blood type" book a few years ago but I'm in pretty decent health over all and I found being more active since not working has been more of a help than anything. There were a couple foods on the avoid list for me that I already do avoid but some others on the good for me list that I either hate or doesn't agree with me so I just try to go for moderation, wheat's on my off-list but I'll be damned if I'm going without onion rings again (did gluten-free for a while to rule it out). And I eat lots of carrots and apples, dropped 15 lb in 2 years without noticing or really changing anything else in my life than making sure I get my 5 fruits and veggies every day.

Although now you've got me thinking, I should try shredding up some cabbage and making wine sauerkraut with the wild grape wine batch that got salted, I've turned about a gallon and a half into pre-seasoned vinegar already... the last time I had homemade sauerkraut it was so salty I had to rinse it off before I could eat it, I'll see what I can come up with on my own! :D

mmclean
04-01-2012, 07:56 PM
I love my homemde sauerkraut.

My wife makes miso soup all winter. She would trip if I made a gallon of paste.

!Wine
04-02-2012, 01:49 AM
Chev, check out the updated lists I linked earlier and specifically the foods that were listed as neutral/beneficial that you have issues with. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to figure out your secretor status based on that info.
There's a 'secretor' or 'non-secretor' status that affects how some foods hit the same blood type.
"A" secretor (like myself) can't eat banannas. "A" non-secretor can. I believe they were listed as neutral for my blood type years ago... but I've never been able to tolerate them. :D

Mmclean, You'll find that the homemade miso goes a lot faster than the commercial stuff. *grin* The flavors are so much more complex and delicious... you just end up wanting it more often. Not a bad thing by any stretch. LOL


I just pulled 2 large jars of Kimchi out of the cupboard for the fridge... Tasted it, just 2 pieces, and the mucus in my mouth just went through the roof. LOL
The wife and kid LOVE it though and it's awesome for their digestion so... It's a regular thing. *grin*

The saurkraut I made last month at the same time needs a few more weeks. I too put too much salt in it as well and it's going to take longer for it to ferment out. Gonna be REALLY sour! LOL *grin*

So cool to see the 2 year old munching on HOT kimchi and loving it. LOL

Happy Fermenting!

mccann51
04-02-2012, 03:26 PM
Thanks for putting up your recipes, Wine! I'm definitely gonna be trying out the miso. I didn't realize miso could be fermented rice, always thought it was just soybeans, so I'm even more excited to give it a try now.

I recently (finally) got around to making some fermented hot sauce. Used 12 habaneros, two red bell peppers, three cloves of garlic, two tablespoons of sea salt, and blended in 16 oz of water (next time I'll drop it to 12 oz). Put it all in a 32 oz jar with the lid loosely placed on top, and let sit for two days before trying it. It's pretty delicious, and surprisingly not as hot as I was worried it might be (a dozen habaneros is a lot of capsaicin!). I have to try it again to decide how close it is to 'regular' hot sauce, and if the recipe needs some tweaking.

Boogaloo
04-23-2012, 03:39 PM
Hands down the best kimchi recipe I've found is from Maangchi.com . You can download her books for free in pdf and everything is authentic.

http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/nappa-cabbage-kimchi

My gf is Korean and we eat at least 3-4 pounds of kimchi a month. Once you get the recipe for cabbage and radish down you can 'kimichi' anything really. Throw some oysters in there... amazing!

darkangel
07-19-2012, 02:29 AM
Was directed here to share my experiences in the fermented foods world... Here's a bunch of information from it. *grin*

p.s. I tend to wander all over at times... apologies for any confusion. lol

I want to share too what I've read a couple of hours ago about fermented foods. I read this article (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/03/18/mcbride-and-barringer-interview.aspx) and i was shocked about the health benefits of fermented foods, pretty amazing.

Chevette Girl
08-27-2012, 01:47 AM
Made my own miso soup today, I used storebought miso, but I made my own broth (dashi). Turned out so well I had three or four bowls despite it being 31C in my house this afternoon.. (88F).