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Eduardo Miranda
06-10-2012, 09:44 AM
I have found that the word definition Hydromel used in many websites (mostly in US) is wrong.

Hydromel is not a variation of mead and is not watered mead!

Hydromel is the French word for Mead like the Portuguese word Hidromel, the Spanish word Hidromiel and the Italian word Idromele. All have the origin in the Latin word Hydromeli.

I would appreciate to not see the word used improperly. the term is very old and exists in regions that make mead since forever .

This is a mead related website (excellent by the way) and i ask to Vicky Rowe if it's possible to correct this definition in the glossary.

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

TAKeyser
06-10-2012, 10:08 AM
I have found that the word definition Hydromel used in many websites (mostly in US) is wrong.

Hydromel is not a variation of mead and is not watered mead!

Hydromel is the French word for Mead like the Portuguese word Hidromel, the Spanish word Hidromiel and the Italian word Idromele. All have the origin in the Latin word Hydromeli.

I would appreciate to not see the word used improperly. the term is very old and exists in regions that make mead since forever .

This is a mead related website (excellent by the way) and i ask to Vicky Rowe if it's possible to correct this definition in the glossary.

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

It may have once been just another word for Mead, but words evolve over time and their definitions are expanded and change and Hydromel has taken on the meaning of a low Alcohol Mead. There's a whole science of Linguistics that explains words, their definitions and their evolution.

Eduardo Miranda
06-10-2012, 10:23 AM
It may have once been just another word for Mead, but words evolve over time and their definitions are expanded and change and Hydromel has taken on the meaning of a low Alcohol Mead. There's a whole science of Linguistics that explains words, their definitions and their evolution.

Excuse my insistence, but are trying to give a new meaning to the word.

The point is that Hydromel is French, not English (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydromel). We can find French law since 1911 related with mead with this word. (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071232&dateTexte=20080918 |)

If there is a French member of this forum can shed some light on this subject.

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

TAKeyser
06-10-2012, 10:57 AM
Excuse my insistence, but are trying to give a new meaning to the word.

The point is that Hydromel is French, not English (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydromel). We can find French law since 1911 related with mead with this word. (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071232&dateTexte=20080918 |)

If there is a French member of this forum can shed some light on this subject.

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

The definitions of words change over time. Look up the word Etymology.

Some examples:
Nice used to be an insult and meant foolish or stupid in the 13th century and it went through many changes right through to the 18th century with meanings like wanton, extravagant, elegant, strange, modest, thin, and shy or coy. Now it means a good & pleasing or thoughtful & kind.

Silly meant blessed or happy in the 11th century and went through pious, innocent, harmless, pitiable and feeble minded before ending up as foolish or stupid.

Pretty started as crafty this changed to clever or skillfully made, then to fine and ended up as beautiful.

Some other changes are:

Awful used to mean Deserving of awe

Girl used to mean Young person of either sex

Neck used to mean Parcel of land (as in neck of the woods)

Nuisance used to mean Injury, harm

Sophisticated used to mean Corrupted

TheAlchemist
06-10-2012, 11:15 AM
Thanks TAK! I love words!

BrewinNColorado
06-10-2012, 11:30 AM
Language is a very interesting topic simply because so many words change and progress over time that their meaning now is often very different then what it started off. A good example of this, and I hope that it makes sense is here in America, we give a general name to any soft tissue that is used to wipe your nose as being a kleenex. Kleenex is an actual brand but is often used as a general term.

In this case, hydromel is not mean to be watered down mead, but mead that is like water. To be classified as a hydromel, it has to be less than a certain ABV. breaking down the root, hydro = water and miel = mead, so there is a logical use of the word to mean a mead that is low in alcohol.

While researching this word, I do think it is fair to say that gotmead does list a hydromel also as the french name for mead.

http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244&Itemid=67

As far as hydromel being used just to describe the french meads, this is going to be a tough to change. I know that a lot of money and time has gone into making sure that champagne is used only to describe a specific wine that is made in a particular region of france.

What do you suggest to describe a mead that is low in abv?

akueck
06-10-2012, 12:27 PM
The "miel" part of the word actually means honey, though I suppose it could also double as mead to some people. It's the same root as the "mel" part in melomel, etc. In Spanish honey is "miel de abeja" or "bee honey", for example.

"Hydromel" in French definitely is the same thing as "mead" in English. However in English the word is generally taken to be a low alcohol mead. Such is life.

Eduardo Miranda
06-10-2012, 01:01 PM
Thanks TAKeyser for the great examples presented. We're always learning.

Noe Palacios
06-11-2012, 12:11 PM
I don't like Hidromiel or Aguamiel because this denominations tend to confuse my clients. When I started to share my mead (before I jumped into the market) they asked me - Is this a mixture of water and honey? - When I noticed this problem, and the time I use to waste explaining what mead is, I decided to use - Vino de Miel (honey wine) instead Hidromiel.

My intention is to create a new denomination - Vinomiel

Why? First, because it explains in a first glance what is inside the bottle and there's no need to explin nothing, second because it sounds like the Slavian - Medovina - and finally, because I like it and please me.

Saludos,

Eduardo Miranda
06-11-2012, 09:42 PM
I don't like Hidromiel or Aguamiel because this denominations tend to confuse my clients. When I started to share my mead (before I jumped into the market) they asked me - Is this a mixture of water and honey? - When I noticed this problem, and the time I use to waste explaining what mead is, I decided to use - Vino de Miel (honey wine) instead Hidromiel.

Fortunately in Portugal we don't have this problem.
"Hidromel" is Mead and "água-mel" (Water-Honey) is a mixture used to feed bees. So there is no confusion :)

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

Eduardo Miranda
06-11-2012, 09:53 PM
In this case, hydromel is not mean to be watered down mead, but mead that is like water. To be classified as a hydromel, it has to be less than a certain ABV. breaking down the root, hydro = water and miel = mead, so there is a logical use of the word to mean a mead that is low in alcohol.

Allow me a correction: Hydro = water and Miel = honey


While researching this word, I do think it is fair to say that gotmead does list a hydromel also as the french name for mead.

http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244&Itemid=67

Thanks. had not seen this page.


What do you suggest to describe a mead that is low in abv?

I honestly have no suggestions.
Can you tell me what is the ABV for a mead be considered "Hydromel"?

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

wayneb
06-11-2012, 10:43 PM
I honestly have no suggestions.
Can you tell me what is the ABV for a mead be considered "Hydromel"?


As with most terms in "common usage" for any hobby, there is some room for interpretation for the American English use of the word hydromel. While in many older references a hydromel id defined as any mead with less than 8% ABV, in the official BJCP judging guidelines a hydromel is any mead with less than or equal to 7.5% ABV.

Noe Palacios
06-11-2012, 11:44 PM
Fortunately in Portugal we don't have this problem.
"Hidromel" is Mead and "água-mel" (Water-Honey) is a mixture used to feed bees. So there is no confusion :)

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

In Mexico, Aguamiel is the juice from the agave palm that they use to brew their "pulque".

But the main confusion still that this denominations describe more from what mead comes than what mead is. That is why I'm promoting - Vinomiel.

I believe that the Romance Languages need a new denomination, a global one, a denomination that would be understandable everywhere where Romumlus and Remus descendants are, and this new denomination should be - Vinomiel - Vinhomel - Vinmiel - Vinomiele - Vinmiere - Vimel.

Saludos,

claudio
06-12-2012, 04:23 AM
From Italian etymologic dictionary:
"Idromele": from Greek Ydromeli, Ydro = Water, Meli = Honey. Water and honey long and lightly fermented beverage.

The problem is that "honey" is actually "miele", while "mele" means apples. So every time I mention "idromele" everyone says: "Oh, with apples, you mean cider?". And to make things worse I just made a cyser. But I still like the word "Idromele".

I don't really care if in English it has a different meaning, we already have plenty of false friends. A German friend of mine used to make fun of the fact that the word "caldo" in Italian recalls "cold" in English or "kallt" in German/Swedish, while it means "hot". And I always get confused that in Swedish "noi" is translated "vi" and "voi" is translated "ni". I was even convinced for few months that I was living in the western part of town since "östra" recalls "ovest" ("west" in English), but it actually means "eastern" (well, I did know that it was the eastern part, but if you had asked me I would have said: "West!").

@Noe Palacios
"Vinomiele" sounds very rude. It should be "vino di miele" but I don't like it, people will think that it's wine mixed with honey.

Eduardo Miranda
06-12-2012, 10:07 AM
I believe that the Romance Languages need a new denomination, a global one, a denomination that would be understandable everywhere where Romumlus and Remus descendants are, and this new denomination should be - Vinomiel - Vinhomel - Vinmiel - Vinomiele - Vinmiere - Vimel.

Noe, we are friends on Facebook and I think you have already my opinion about your denomination "Vinomiel".

In my opinion the word Vino/Wine should only be used in beverages obtained from the fermentation of fruits or vegetables, otherwise may cause more confusion.

I think there are only three types of fermented beverages, according to their origin:

Cereals --> Beer (grain), Sake (rice), ...
Fruits & vegetables --> Wine (grapes), Cider (apples), ...
Animal source --> Mead (honey), kefir (milk)

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

Noe Palacios
06-12-2012, 12:05 PM
Noe, we are friends on Facebook and I think you have already my opinion about your denomination "Vinomiel".

In my opinion the word Vino/Wine should only be used in beverages obtained from the fermentation of fruits or vegetables, otherwise may cause more confusion.

I think there are only three types of fermented beverages, according to their origin:

Cereals --> Beer (grain), Sake (rice), ...
Fruits & vegetables --> Wine (grapes), Cider (apples), ...
Animal source --> Mead (honey), kefir (milk)

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

Hi Eduardo: Yes, I recognized you from the very beginning.

My denomination concern is pure comercial, in english they don't have this problem - mead is mead, and it doesn't matter word's origin.

But in Romance Languages is not the case. You have to be aware that mead making tradition almost dissapeared in Romance Countries, yes, there is a lot wine making but not so much mead makers. I believe there are more mead makers in the US than in whole Europe. I believe that if you go to Barcelona and stop somebody and ask - Do you want some Hidromiel? - This person will look you kind strange and will ask - Hidromiel, what is this? Watered honey?

In Latin America the situation is even worse because there isn't such tradition. Chile, Argentina - wine maker, Peru - Pisco makers, Central America and Caribean Countries - Rum, Mexico - Tequila, Pulque.

I want to believe that I'm part of the beginning of the Latin American Mead Making Tradition, which is a huge opportunity because we also can "create" the "word", the denomination which mead could be known in Romance Countries in the future.

I also like MEDONE which is one of the forms that mead was called in Latin, but I'll use it as MEDONEVIN and it brings us closer to the rest of the world - Mead - Med - Medovina - Medone => Medonevin (why not, uh?)

Saludos,

Noe Palacios
06-12-2012, 12:09 PM
@Noe Palacios
"Vinomiele" sounds very rude. It should be "vino di miele" but I don't like it, people will think that it's wine mixed with honey.

I don't speak italian so if you say that it's sounds rude ... I won't argue.

Saludos,

Eduardo Miranda
06-12-2012, 06:55 PM
As with most terms in "common usage" for any hobby, there is some room for interpretation for the American English use of the word hydromel. While in many older references a hydromel id defined as any mead with less than 8% ABV, in the official BJCP judging guidelines a hydromel is any mead with less than or equal to 7.5% ABV.

Thanks Wayne.

Regards,
Eduardo Miranda

tycoon
06-13-2012, 02:02 PM
I agree with Noe about the confusing use of "hidromiel" or "aguamiel" in Spanish speaking countries without a mead making/consuming tradition (every single person I have ever had try my mead, with the exception of akuek, had never tried it or, in most cases, even heard such a thing existed).

The fact remains, however, that here in Chile and in other wine-producing countries, the word "Vino" can legally be used only for labelling fermented grape wine.

However, I personally think that rather than trying to promote a new word like Vinomiel (although I like it), I think it might be better in practice to push for the adoption of the word "Mead" in Spanish too, in the same way that "taxi" or "hotel" are used. Those are foreign words that did not have a local counterpart. Hidromiel, while it may exist in dictionaries, is virtually unknown and sometimes confusing, for the reasons Noe described.

Using the word "mead" would also make the international efforts promoting mead useful in Spanish-speaking countries, as well as opening up markets in other countries if a mead market actually develops internationally.

Just my two cents :)

Noe Palacios
06-20-2012, 12:44 AM
However, I personally think that rather than trying to promote a new word like Vinomiel (although I like it), I think it might be better in practice to push for the adoption of the word "Mead" in Spanish too, in the same way that "taxi" or "hotel" are used. Those are foreign words that did not have a local counterpart. Hidromiel, while it may exist in dictionaries, is virtually unknown and sometimes confusing, for the reasons Noe described.

Using the word "mead" would also make the international efforts promoting mead useful in Spanish-speaking countries, as well as opening up markets in other countries if a mead market actually develops internationally.

Just my two cents :)

Hi Tycoon, I'm using your phrase in my Skype, VKontakte and Facebook accounts but I gave you the credit.

Interesting, very interesting ... but, there's always a "but", the problem will be the pronunciation ... Hotel sounds otel in spanish no such big difference from english, taxi - taksi, but mead ... mead will sound Mid (meed) and remember we use to write the way we listen the words.

I still like Medone or Medón, this word some how put us in the same word path with almost everybody. I think I'll start to use medón in my labels.

Saludos,

fishmeester
06-20-2012, 06:41 PM
As a Belgian, I have the privilege of speaking Dutch and French and getting to buy mead labelled in both Dutch and French and I can verify that in French, hydromel just means mead, as I have several bottles here, with 12%ABV, labeled "Mede" (mead in Dutch) and "Hydromel" (mead in French).

However, the fact that hydromel just means mead in French, does not mean it can't specifically refer to a low ABV mead in English. Languages, you have to love them!