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TheAlchemist
07-22-2012, 02:26 PM
My heart is going out to all our Colorado sibling brewers.

I hope you all and all your loved ones are safe.

Chevette Girl
07-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Thanks for posting, Alchemist... I wanted to say something too but couldn't come up with the words... there have been a number of (much smaller scale) shootings in Ontario in the last week, it's pretty scary out there.

My thoughts are with anyone who's been affected by violence...

fatbloke
07-22-2012, 03:22 PM
Yet another one of this type of occurrence, that makes the international news. Bringing a sense of sorrow, and a lack of comprehension.

After all, I understand that the Western country with the highest level of gun possession, has the lowest gun death rate, so why does this happen in the US with such apparent regularity ?

And no, the country with the highest gun possession isn't the US.....

TheAlchemist
07-22-2012, 07:14 PM
I wanted to say something too but couldn't come up with the words... there have been a number of shootings in Ontario in the last week, it's pretty scary out there.

My thoughts are with anyone who's been affected by violence...

It's interesting.

For the past several weeks my spinning song has been "Ah ha, Oh yes. Please let the rain come down..."

Today, with no explanation from the Universe that I heretofore understood, the song changed to:

What the world needs now is love, sweet love.

I have been singing this song all day.

It was not until I read your post that I began to understand why.

Thank you.

This is one small part of why I have you(and this forum, thank you Vicki and Petar) in my life.

Deacon Aegis
07-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Yet another one of this type of occurrence, that makes the international news. Bringing a sense of sorrow, and a lack of comprehension.

After all, I understand that the Western country with the highest level of gun possession, has the lowest gun death rate, so why does this happen in the US with such apparent regularity ?

And no, the country with the highest gun possession isn't the US.....

I am going to avoid getting into political positions as I have a pretty fierce opinion on gun possession as a southern boy who grew up in Texas in a conservative household. All I am going to say is that it is said that an "Armed Society is a Polite Society".

Unfortunately here, the politics and extremes of opinions and positions is overly complex and often tied into a vast array of other ideals and beliefs. Babylon is not burning yet, but we are certainly one step closer to Rome here in the U.S. at this point... Bleh...

Vance G
07-23-2012, 01:40 PM
264 gun murders in Chicago this year to date with as tight a gun control as anyplace in the county. Also if you could refresh me, What caliber did Ted Kazanski or the Oklahoma City bomber use? One or two concealed carries in that theatre would have caused a different ending with a lot less carnage. If shot at, he would have turned and ran like the coward he is.

Chevette Girl
07-23-2012, 01:52 PM
All I am going to say is that it is said that an "Armed Society is a Polite Society".

I'm sorry to say it, but I think it works a lot better in Switzerland than in the US because they're all trained with their weapons and everyone KNOWS everyone else is trained with their weapons... according to wikipedia, there are 88 guns per 100 people in the US and Switzerland only has 45 guns per 100... and I'm also gonna leave that political discussion for another thread. I have friends here who feel strongly both ways and all their points are valid.

And Vance, maybe this guy was counting on not living through the experience but couldn't end it himself like so many other perpetrators of senseless crimes like this? I may well be wrong, but I have specifically not been looking for information on the shooter, just the victims. They deserve to be remembered, this piece of garbage does not.

Deacon Aegis
07-23-2012, 06:34 PM
And Vance, maybe this guy was counting on not living through the experience but couldn't end it himself like so many other perpetrators of senseless crimes like this? I may well be wrong, but I have specifically not been looking for information on the shooter, just the victims. They deserve to be remembered, this piece of garbage does not.

Amen to that!

I agree about the firearm training. I think good training in both safety and in handling are a good idea. Privelages should always be balanced with responsibility. No argument there. ;)

Penguinetti
07-24-2012, 07:08 AM
I am going to avoid getting into political positions as I have a pretty fierce opinion on gun possession as a southern boy who grew up in Texas in a conservative household. All I am going to say is that it is said that an "Armed Society is a Polite Society".

Unfortunately here, the politics and extremes of opinions and positions is overly complex and often tied into a vast array of other ideals and beliefs. Babylon is not burning yet, but we are certainly one step closer to Rome here in the U.S. at this point... Bleh...

What he said... except I'm not from Texas. And I'm not conservative. But everything else. Right there with you.



Also, speaking of violence, it's in the news now that the fire started at my work was because the the guy who started it wanted to get out of work early and he had anxiety.

Vance G
07-28-2012, 08:33 AM
I do not understand why it matters whether the sicko intended to live, I just wish there would have been a free armed man or women there to stop him. PETA does not throw blood on the leather being worn by bikers! He would not now be reveling in all the attention. Now he is claiming amnesia and I want to puke at the pictures of the large eyed waif shown by the media. I would like to some way inject him with bone cancer and let him have time to think about it while not medicating him. All the attention being given him is just fueling the next one.

Penguinetti
07-29-2012, 05:56 AM
We almost had a copy cat incident in Maine.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

TheAlchemist
08-05-2012, 08:38 PM
How ever unlikely it may seem that a Sikh may make or drink mead, my heart goes out to all the families affected by another shooting tragedy.

I know there are plenty of Mazers in the SE Wisconsin area and my thoughts are turning to you all, hoping for the safety and well being of you and your loved ones.

Penguinetti
08-07-2012, 11:13 AM
How ever unlikely it may seem that a Sikh may make or drink mead, my heart goes out to all the families affected by another shooting tragedy.

I know there are plenty of Mazers in the SE Wisconsin area and my thoughts are turning to you all, hoping for the safety and well being of you and your loved ones.

The most ironic part about all of this is that the shooter apparently was targeting what he thought was muslims, and he had a 9/11 tattoo. If he was doing this for '9/11 retribution', wouldn't he eventually realize he just killed more Americans 'in the name of America'.

Kind of counterintuitive, if you ask me.

Whatshisface
08-07-2012, 05:07 PM
The most ironic part about all of this is that the shooter apparently was targeting what he thought was muslims, and he had a 9/11 tattoo. If he was doing this for '9/11 retribution', wouldn't he eventually realize he just killed more Americans 'in the name of America'.

Kind of counterintuitive, if you ask me.

Yeah, looking for any logic in this mess has to be frivolous.

Chevette Girl
08-07-2012, 10:54 PM
Yeah, I think the logic circuits in people who do things like this have burned out...

TheAlchemist
08-07-2012, 11:16 PM
On the subject of logic, how likely is it for anyone in the Sikh community to have a concealed carry license? And how much water does an argument favoring concealed carry as a theoretical preventer of such tragedies hold in this particular tragedy?

Chevette Girl
08-07-2012, 11:29 PM
That's a good question. They model after saint-soldiers, so maybe. But maybe not.

Penguinetti
08-08-2012, 08:05 AM
Personally I think more people should carry concealed weapons. ESPECIALLY those people who don't want them, for these reasons:

1) If more people conceal carry, there would be a higher probability that when something tragic like this happens, there would be somebody who can stop it before it gets too bad.

2) Typically the people who don't want guns are those who wouldn't use one. So should an argument occur, there is less likelihood that one of these people would abuse the power of carrying. HOWEVER, like in statement 1 above, they would have the capacity of stopping tragic events from escalading so; and if they realise this truth, then the potential for them to use during a crisis situation would rise.

Chevette Girl
08-08-2012, 08:44 AM
I don't know about that. I'd be on the "don't want a gun" side and because it's not something I would think about very often, it's be much like my car's horn, "Aww, crap, I should have honked just then, but I was too busy reacting." If it wasn't hard-wired into my reactions like some martial arts things are finally starting to be, it woudn't occur to me to pull a firearm and use it. Which is why if you're gonna carry, you should have and maintain good training with it. Someone pulls out a gun and starts firing, I think my reaction would be to hit the ground, if I'm exceedingly lucky and don't just freeze like a deer in the headlights. Besides, no matter who they were or what they were doing, though I do enjoy target shooting, I think I'd be severely messed up if I had to kill a person, and though it's probably better than being dead and letting them kill more people, the guilt of hitting (or missing and either hurting someone else or not saving the innocents because I didn't take out the target) sounds pretty scary. It's not a responsiblitily I think I can handle, and I can't be the only person who feels this way. <shrug>

It's just really irritating when the supposed gun controls let whackos legally purchase firearms like this. Because either the whacko in question can hide that they're a whacko long enough to get their firearm legally, or becuase criminals don't use legally-obtained firearms...

TheAlchemist
08-08-2012, 10:41 AM
I can't be the only person who feels this way. <shrug>

It's just really irritating when the supposed gun controls let whackos legally purchase firearms like this...

Right.
I second that.

Midnight Sun
08-08-2012, 01:34 PM
<snip> If more people conceal carry, there would be a higher probability that when something tragic like this happens, there would be somebody who can stop it before it gets too bad.

Consider reading about the study of bear encounters published by Brigham Young University. One such article is here: click (http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2012/03/14/study_guns_not_best_defense_against_angry_bear/). While the sample was somewhat limited, the conclusion was that a person possessing a firearm in a bear encounter is no more likely to escape injury than one who does not. Pepper spray was deemed a more effective deterrent. You'll also see that former Alaska wildlife biologist John Hechtel disagrees, stating that firearms and pepper spray in trained hands are equally effective during bear encounters.

Ok, so what? Well, look at the reasons why the firearm was ineffective: no time to deploy, gun jammed, gun was unloaded, person panicked and couldn't deploy, shot missed, shot did not sufficiently impair the animal, person consciously chose not to fire, etc. Statistics and pepper spray aside, if someone approaches while firing a gun, the mental and physical reactions are probably going to be similar to a bear attack.

Chevette is correct, unless you are trained for such encounters, then there is no telling how you will react. In fact, I applaud her for admitting that she would probably freeze or drop to the ground. Most of us would do the same however loath we are to confess it.

TheAlchemist
08-08-2012, 04:25 PM
It's a long time since I brought myself up-to-date on the pediatric literature, but epidemiologically speaking, when there is a firearm in the home, the person most likely to be harmed by the firearm is the person who lives in the home.

Penguinetti
08-08-2012, 08:23 PM
Let me add on, at no point in my mind did I ever think people should be allowed to carry without proper and continued training. I just didn't bother typing it cause I figured it was a given.

Guns are dangerous when you haven't had proper and continuous training. Having said that, I realize that most of you might be against gun ownership, but that doesn't change the fact that, if someone came into my place of work and tried to open fire, he wouldn't get off that many shots for the simple fact that close by is a man trained in shooting his firearm.

And I realise that to shoot someone is probably going to be a huge hit to the brain in the sanity department, but I feel that it is damage worth taking to save the lives of others.

Those are my 2 cents. It might be a few more cents, or it might be less. Either way...

Chevette Girl
08-08-2012, 09:32 PM
And I realise that to shoot someone is probably going to be a huge hit to the brain in the sanity department, but I feel that it is damage worth taking to save the lives of others.


Yep, it probably would be worth it to have saved lives, although I do know from paintballing experiences (closest I've come to actual combat, there's some risk involved, even if it's only pain and not injury or death) that I'm not so good under fire, and I'm also not great at making decisions under stress either.

And even with proper and continual training with firearms, reacting in an actual combat situation? I don't know if firearms training could prepare you for being shot at. Maybe some of our military friends would be willing to share on this... I've been doing martial arts for eleven years now and have done a number of self-defense courses throughout my life and I still don't know if the training would kick in in an actual situation where it was needed. I hope I never find out. So far so good. *

(*) Swordfighting in armour doesn't count because there's very little real threat to me and I know it (I love my armour, I get more bruises from it than I ever do from my opponents), same thing with randori (multiple attackers) in Aikido, the black belts have the control not to actually hurt me no matter how bad I screw up.




Chevette is correct, unless you are trained for such encounters, then there is no telling how you will react. In fact, I applaud her for admitting that she would probably freeze or drop to the ground. Most of us would do the same however loath we are to confess it.

Knowing your strengths is nothing compared with coming up with workarounds for your weaknesses, but you have to acknowledge and accept your weaknesses first, and I've had lots of practice! ;D

TheAlchemist
08-08-2012, 10:10 PM
I don't buy an argument that I should concealed carry and maintain excellent training in the care and feeding of a firearm so that I can protect myself and others in CHURCH and I doubt you'll find Sikhs who would either.

Chevette Girl
08-08-2012, 10:18 PM
I don't buy an argument that I should concealed carry and maintain excellent training in the care and feeding of a firearm so that I can protect myself and others in CHURCH and I doubt you'll find Sikhs who would either.

Truth, "safe as in church" is how the saying goes... and if I did concealed carry, I'd leave the thing at home if I were going to church! It's supposed to be home free, safe...

I don't have any faith to speak of, but it's just frigging wrong to attack anyone in their place of worship. So very, very wrong.

056r
08-08-2012, 11:31 PM
Truth, "safe as in church" is how the saying goes... and if I did concealed carry, I'd leave the thing at home if I were going to church! It's supposed to be home free, safe...

I don't have any faith to speak of, but it's just frigging wrong to attack anyone in their place of worship. So very, very wrong.


Unfortunately the fact that something is wrong does not prevent others from doing it. I'm sure we all wish that we lived in a perfect world with no nut jobs or criminals but that just isn't the case. I understand that carrying a concealed weapon and the responsibility that comes with it is not for everyone. However the argument that "i should be safe if I'm in X location" doesn't really hold water. We live in an ugly world where people can and will do you harm for any number of reasons and we rarely get to pick the time and place when such things happen.

Case in point (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2865109/posts)

Midnight Sun
08-09-2012, 03:00 AM
Penguinetti, I apologize if I gave you the impression of being against gun ownership; that would be hypocritical of me since I own two hand guns, a shotgun, and a competition level air rifle. To make matters worse, my wife and I met while competing on our high school rifle team ;). I personally don't carry a concealed gun, although I do carry a concealed knife.

What really bothers me is the assertion that greater numbers of people carrying concealed guns equals greater safety. If you say that you are sufficiently trained to handle an armed situation, then I believe you. Most people simply are not though. I used to teach a martial arts based self-defense class and would often watch students crack during practice scenarios, particularly if they had been training for less than a year. While stressful, those scenarios still pale in comparison to the stress of a real firearm encounter.

Regarding the need for weapons in a house of worship, I am forced to agree with 056r. There is a group of us that keep an eye on things where I worship. Should one of us raise an alarm, there are a decent number of police officers, FBI agents, and both active duty and retired military within the congregation that will take over the situation.

Penguinetti
08-09-2012, 07:36 AM
Truth, "safe as in church" is how the saying goes... I don't have any faith to speak of, but it's just frigging wrong to attack anyone in their place of worship. So very, very wrong.


Sadly, I have never heard that saying. That would be a wonderful saying. But to those out there who do harm to others, a church is nothing more than a building with targets inside. And IT IS terribly wrong, as is beating a 4-yr-old to death, smashing a kid in the face hard enough that he vomits, or raping an 87-yr-old while burglarizing her cottage. But these have all happened.


Penguinetti, I apologize if I gave you the impression of being against gun ownership; that would be hypocritical of me since I own two hand guns, a shotgun, and a competition level air rifle....

I totally want to visit you in Alaska.


...Regarding the need for weapons in a house of worship, I am forced to agree with 056r. There is a group of us that keep an eye on things where I worship. Should one of us raise an alarm, there are a decent number of police officers, FBI agents, and both active duty and retired military within the congregation that will take over the situation.

And it's because you have people who are trained in these situations. Which further makes me think that more people should be trained for such situations. And I know some people probably won't be able to deal with it, and some might cower, and crack, or freeze, or hesitate. But to say that 'you shouldn't be trained because you might hesitate' doesn't really make sense to me.

I'm not saying someone WILL save the day. I'm saying their would be a higher chance that someone COULD save the day.


The DK Massacre; there were 4, I believe, guys who were shot while protecting the people they were with. Do you think they might have been able to do something if they had the proper equipment and training? Or do you think they would have hesitated. I'd like to repeat. They sacrificed their lives to save the people they were with. To me, that doesn't speak of someone who would hesitate. I could be wrong, but I could very well be right.


"It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." -My dad, talking about bringing a sweatshirt around with me during the winter. But I feel it applies to other things.

wildoates
08-09-2012, 11:19 PM
You shouldn't NEED a gun in a house of worship, true. You shouldn't need ond anywhere, but things happen, and if you carry, you have a better chance of make those things less awful. You aren't protecting yourself against the sane people.

Chevette Girl
08-10-2012, 05:10 PM
Ok, see this (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/u-tourist-walt-wawra-aggressive-encounter-calgary-nose-171104507.html)? This is the kind of " combat and firearms-trained person" I DO NOT WANT TO SEE WITH A FIREARM. EVER. And this guy's a bloody cop. And if he'd been permitted his handgun, he might have shot (or at least very badly scared) a couple of friendly locals who were just making small talk. I almost always have a knife on me, but it's a tool, not a weapon... I feel inconvenienced when I don't have one on me, not unprotected... the last thing I'd think of doing is sticking it into someone in self-defense!

"He also complained about Canadian gun laws, saying that in Canada, only the police and criminals carry handguns. Yes, that’s true, and it’s probably one of the reasons when there’s a dispute over a parking space in Canada, nobody dies from bullet wounds as a result." (http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/op-ed/Lakritz+shoot+only+asked+about+Stampede/7054368/story.html) This article suggests that it's a predominant attitude on your side of the border, especially that of living in fear and suspicion of everyone else's motives. I sure hope it's not like that everywhere. Please, please tell me it's not... please tell me this guy is the minority that gives the rest of the sensible concealed carriers a bad name...

Penguinetti
08-10-2012, 05:58 PM
Ok, see ...This article suggests that it's a predominant attitude on your side of the border, especially that of living in fear and suspicion of everyone else's motives. I sure hope it's not like that everywhere. Please, please tell me it's not... please tell me this guy is the minority that gives the rest of the sensible concealed carriers a bad name...



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he is the minority, just like those police officers who beat up Rodney King were a minority, just like those officers who tried to knowingly falsely charge that girl for a DUI so another police officer didn't get in trouble. Sadly, these are the people you will hear more about because they show (shockingly) limited amounts of common sense.

I will say, however, that I have no idea what 'The Stampede' is; and typically in my neighborhood growing up, if someone you didn't know came up to you it was either to

a) ask you for drugs

b) try to rob you

c) asked you for money

or d) any combination of the above.

Riverat
08-10-2012, 07:29 PM
Hey CG!, yes these extremists (both right and left) are in fact the minorities, the vast majority of Americans are decent, friendly, more or less centrist moderates (I can prove this mathematically, it's obvious really) but you would never know it by watching, listening or reading the news, I suppose this just doesn't make for titillating reporting.
Most of the gun owners I know are peaceful responsible people that actually enjoy target practice and the craftsmanship of a well made firearm.

Chevette Girl
08-10-2012, 07:34 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he is the minority, just like those police officers who beat up Rodney King were a minority, just like those officers who tried to knowingly falsely charge that girl for a DUI so another police officer didn't get in trouble. Sadly, these are the people you will hear more about because they show (shockingly) limited amounts of common sense.

I will say, however, that I have no idea what 'The Stampede' is; and typically in my neighborhood growing up, if someone you didn't know came up to you it was either to

a) ask you for drugs

b) try to rob you

c) asked you for money

or d) any combination of the above.

If you've gone to Calgary when the Stampede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary_Stampede)'s on, I would imagine you've heard about nothing but... it takes over the whole city, I don't think you can escape it even if you tried.

And maybe if I ever do get my passport and decide to head south, first I'll ask you folks where I can be myself and where I should shut the hell up, I am one of the weirdos who will strike up conversations with random strangers. I'm sure we have neighbourhoods like that, but I live in my country's capital city and I've never had someone try to rob me or ask me for drugs... And even when someone asks you for money (which has happened), they're generally pretty polite about it. Violence happens from time to time, but generally it's isolated, and nobody goes around expecting it.

Oh, well. Different life experiences make for different attitudes...

Penguinetti
08-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Eh, it all depends on where you live, really. I grew up on a street where prostitutes hung out, heroin needles littered my apartment's garage floor, a 'slow' boy who helped at my high school was stabbed and killed for his wallet on my street, and we had no less than 3 different gangs running around.

Where i live now? Aside from my drunk neighbor, there hasn't been a break in in 2 years in this town of less than 5000 people.

It's all relative.

TheAlchemist
12-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Deep Peace to You.
Deep Peace to You.

This is my spinning song this day.

All those who are children.
All those who are parents.
All who are teachers.
All who are first responders.

I am considering you all in my prayers.

Medsen Fey
12-14-2012, 09:25 PM
Amen......

Vance G
12-14-2012, 10:17 PM
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

We emptied the insane asylums and put them on the streets where they could be victimized and for them to commit atrocities because "They have rights too!" More people need put away.

Are teachers so unstable that some of them cannot be quietly designated as armed guardians? If you aren't stable enough understand the moral duty and obligation--you aren't fit to be there. Sounds like the principle put up a fight. I salute him.

From the time I was eight years old, I had a rifle and shotgun I could take off the rack and go shooting or hunting. This was the rural norm fifty years ago! There were no mass killings in schools and by todays definition, most of us were badly abused children! I built a couple guns from chunks of ironWe knew if we midhandled responsibilities we would have painful consequences BEFORE losing the rights and freedoms we enjoyed.


It ain't about guns. It is about child protective services and Dr. Spock and working mothers and taxes so high that those mothers have to work and the resultant decline of communities.

Intheswamp
12-15-2012, 12:42 AM
Vance G, it's about little children having nightmares of what they lived through today, about them trying to understand why some man came in and did bad things to their friends and parents trying to calm their fears. It's about mothers and daddys and grandmothers and granddaddys crying their eyes out because they'll never get to show their grandson or granddaughter the big grasshopper on the porch railing or how the moon gets so big when it's hanging on the horizon, it's about how they won't ever get to hold their babies again, it's about evil that can't be explained or comprehended by normal men.

I know where you're coming from about Dr. Spock, working moms, etc.,. but right now other things trump those thoughts.

Ed

TheAlchemist
12-15-2012, 01:18 AM
Thanks, Ed.

Yes.

It is about grief.

It is just about grief.

Chevette Girl
12-16-2012, 02:09 AM
In the media frenzy that alway surrounds a horror of this magnitude, I make myself find out about the victims so they can be remembered. They died, the least I can do is try to remember them... I try to avoid finding out anything about the shooter, who does not deserve to be in anyone's memory. What did a bunch of first-graders ever do to deserve something like this?