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wiltshiremead
07-28-2012, 07:33 PM
Hi,
I've never made mead but I am about to start 1-gallon batch of Orange Mead.
My question is... I want to make it as natural as possible (without adding chemically named yeast nutrients.) I am thinking of not using raisins but adding orange and malt extract for nutrients. Do you think this will do?

Guinlilly
07-28-2012, 08:02 PM
The search tool is your friend. Here's a really good thread about 'natural' nutrients

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15515&highlight=natural+yeast+nutrient

akueck
07-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Yep, big can of worms there. Most things out there have chemical names. Calcium sulfate and gypsum are the same thing, even if one sounds like chem lab and the other field geology (or drywall!).

Malt extract will work, though you'll probably need to add at least 30% of the fermentables as malt to get the required nitrogen levels. Orange juice is not a very tasty fermented beverage, it tends to be very phenolic. Apple juice, however, is very tasty and yeast love it. Most of the orange flavor/aroma you will get from the zest.

wiltshiremead
07-28-2012, 09:06 PM
Thank you Guinlilly.
I think I'm going to go for boiled bread yeast for nitrogen and coconuts water for potassium or malt extract.

According to this (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161078&postcount=2), "one packet of boiled yeast will provide about 50ppm YAN per gallon." And according to this (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1256/NDzym05_MasterMead.pdf), nitrogen level must be 200ppm to 350ppm depending on the strength so I think I'm going to stagger the pitching.

wiltshiremead
07-28-2012, 09:12 PM
Yep, big can of worms there. Most things out there have chemical names. Calcium sulfate and gypsum are the same thing, even if one sounds like chem lab and the other field geology (or drywall!).

Malt extract will work, though you'll probably need to add at least 30% of the fermentables as malt to get the required nitrogen levels. Orange juice is not a very tasty fermented beverage, it tends to be very phenolic. Apple juice, however, is very tasty and yeast love it. Most of the orange flavor/aroma you will get from the zest.
That's interesting about the amount required for malt extract. 30% is quite a lot.

The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

Guinlilly
07-28-2012, 09:54 PM
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

Well, to be honest, they didn't use nutrients either. They also used the whole hive- bees and all and drank the mead while it was still fermenting.

wiltshiremead
07-29-2012, 05:07 AM
Well, to be honest, they didn't use nutrients either. They also used the whole hive- bees and all and drank the mead while it was still fermenting.
ah, all that wild yeasts and what have you in the bee hive, not D-47 :)
Thanks for the info.
You see a lot of good stuff were born when there was no refridgeration and stuff just left in a normal temperature to 'rot' (or ferment) by accident etc and tasty stuff were born. Nature took care of it.

Right I'm off to boil a sachet of bread yeasts ;D

wiltshiremead
07-29-2012, 07:00 AM
This is for 1-gallon (3.78L water + 1585g Clover Honey) recipe

According to the article, PDF attachment I added previously, I need the following nutrients but they don't say how much exactly.

So I am guessing and I will be using 7 sachet (7 x 7g) of boild bread yeast, nutrients contents (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/baked-products/5130/2) are:-

Nitrogen (7 x 50ppm = 350ppm aiming S.G 1.115)
Calcium (4.5mg x 7 = 31.5mg)
Iron (1.2mg x 7 = 8.4mg)
Magnesium (6.9mg x 7 = 48.3mg)
Potassium (140mg x 7 = 980mg)
Zinc (0.4mg x 7 = 2.8mg)
Thiamin Vit B1 (0.2mg x 7 = 1.4 mg)
Riboflavin (0.4mg x 7 = 2.8mg)
Niacin (2.8mg x 7 = 19.6mg)
Vit B6 (0.1mg x 7 = 0.7mg)
Pantothenic Acid/Pantothenate/Vit B5 (0.8mg x 7 = 5.6mg) to stop the must from smelling like rotten egg

Vit B12, Copper, Manganese - None, could be problem?

Considering I am adding an orange, do I still need to add lemon to bring the PH down?

I suppose there is some potassium, calcium in the bread yeast, I don't need to add Malt extract now, do I!?

akueck
07-29-2012, 09:00 AM
You don't need to add acid, honey has plenty of its own. Adding lemon juice up front often leads to stalled fermentations because the pH actually gets too low.

I'm surprised your boiled yeast doesn't have B12, usually yeast has a bunch of that. Huh. Metallic ions (other than zinc) are usually only required in trace amounts, they might not be listed for one packet.

IIRC, a beer wort of "standard" gravity around 1.050 has about 400-500 ppm YAN. Thus you need *at least* 30% malt if you want that to be your only nutrient source, and then you're still riding the low end of optimal. If you add other nutrients, you need less malt of course.

wiltshiremead
07-29-2012, 09:56 AM
Well, according to the nutritional breakdown in the link I provided, it only has Vitamin B1, 5 & 6 but not 12.

I think I might just stick with boiled bread yeast because if you look at the malt extract nutrient content (http://www.aminoz.com.au/malt-extract-food-5346.html), it looks like other than Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium, the bread yeast seems to contain superior nutrients.
I can top Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium with coconut water (In 300ml : 670mg, 25mg, 40mg respectively)

100g Malt extract only contains the following. Compare that with bread yeast, it is less nutritional.

Malt extract vs 7 sachets of Bread Yeast
Potassium: (320.0 mg, 140mg)
Calcium: (61.0 mg, 8.4mg)
Magnesium: (72.0 mg, 48.3mg)
Iron: (1.0 mg, 8.4mg)
Zinc: (0.1 mg, 2.8mg)
Nitrogen (0, 350ppm)
Thiamin Vit B1 (0, 1.4 mg)
Riboflavin (0, 2.8mg)
Niacin (0, 19.6mg)
Vit B6 (0, 0.7mg)
Pantothenic Acid/Pantothenate/Vit B5 (0, 5.6mg)

I am also getting confused with 1 gallon (UK/US) amount though.
So far I added 2L of water with 1585g of honey. Which makes it nearly US 1-gallon but should the water be 3.78L ???

When you say 30% of fermentable, you mean 30% of 1-gallon (3.78L) must?

I'm sorry for many questions but I think figures would change depending on what you refer too.

akueck
07-29-2012, 10:20 AM
If you are measuring SG, then it doesn't really matter which unit system you use. Just keep adding honey to water until you get where you want. ;)

UK gallons are a bit bigger, 4.5 L instead of 3.8, I think? Usually the total volume is quoted regardless, so your 1-gallon batch should be less than a gallon of water since honey takes up space too. Sounds like you're fine where you are.

30% of the fermentables just means that if your OG is, say 1.100, that 30% of that came from the malt. So if you added just the malt to the same total volume you'd get 1.030 and just the honey 1.070.

Not sure where your 0 for nitrogen comes in the malt column. Depends on processing, of course, but all-malt wort for making beer has a lot of FAN (free amino nitrogen).

wiltshiremead
07-29-2012, 04:06 PM
Thanks akueck.

8 hours in, I can see tiny bubbles rising up ;D
I'm a bit of a dare devil, I used 2 years old D-47 :eek:
I'll feed boild bread yeast again before I go to bed. Gosh, it's like having a baby....can't stop watching the must ;D

Undead
07-30-2012, 12:57 AM
I don't know if you guys are making this harder than it needs to be or if I am just insanely lucky, but I don't use any of that. I throw fruit, possibly grain or oak, honey, and water in with my yeast and turn out some stunning meads. Then again, I use an oz of dried elderberries per gallon for one, 3 lemons and 7 limes for another, and so on. The least I have done is oak chips, sarsaparilla root and vanilla beans. So am I a drunk idiot (I opened a bottle of pumpkin spice mead) or are you guys talking about a traditional mead where it's just water and honey?

Please ignore me if I'm a moron.

wiltshiremead
07-30-2012, 05:32 AM
Undead, my question was based on the Orange Mead. This morning, it's bubbling away quite strongly. It smelled a bit like beer last night due to the addition of boild bread yeast but this morning it is smelling more like an orange fizzy drink. Can't wait to drink it, very happy with it so far.

Soyala_Amaya
07-30-2012, 07:56 PM
So am I a drunk idiot (I opened a bottle of pumpkin spice mead) or are you guys talking about a traditional mead where it's just water and honey?

Please ignore me if I'm a moron.

You're not an idiot Undead. :) What you're reading is someone going out of their way to give their yeast, and thus their mead, the best go of it possible. Yes, you can just toss your yeast and go, but the beasties will have to work harder and longer and will get stressed out. It's the difference between an athlete and a couch potatoe both running a mile. They'll both make it across the finish line, but one will be strong and smiling, the other will be...alive.

When you use a proper SNA schedule, calculate exactly what foods your yeast need, aerate properly, and do all the stuff that is recommened, you produce an athlete mead. It is cleaner, sharper, more crisp and aromatic. When you forgoe that stuff, sure, it can still be drinkable, especially when sweet...but once you've made an athelete you can taste the difference.

akueck
07-30-2012, 08:03 PM
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

Just popped into my head as a fun piece of trivia. Some old recipes will call for a side of beef, a rooster, or other seemingly out-of-place ingredient to be placed in the must. They didn't have DAP, but they still had sources of amino acids!

Given the crazy people on this board, however, a rooster seems relatively tame. :rolleyes:

Soyala_Amaya
07-30-2012, 10:18 PM
Given the crazy people on this board, however, a rooster seems relatively tame. :rolleyes:

...:laughing4:

Crazy, us? Surely you jest! ....

Wait, you're talking about the bacon again aren't you?

Leave my bacon alone!

mccann51
07-31-2012, 12:15 AM
drank the mead while it was still fermenting.

This is a good point to keep in mind. This, or they waited a long-ass time before they had quaffable beverage.

If you want to make a 'natural' mead, low OG (1.035-1.050) is your friend. I wouldn't go over 1.5 lbs of honey per gallon. It can be drank during the ferment or let to sit for a while and then drank.

I have successfully done a higher gravity 'natural' (ie 'nothing') mead, just water, yeast, and honey. It took forever to ferment, and it was a bit on the sweet side if memory serves (probably hid a lot of faults), but it was drinkable in a drinking-hooch-out-of-a-jug kinda way. I prefer my low OG variants, but both approaches are possible.

Medsen Fey
07-31-2012, 09:52 AM
... It's the difference between an athlete and a couch potatoe both running a mile. They'll both make it across the finish line, but one will be strong and smiling, the other will be...alive.


Really great analogy!
And one will probably smell more like athletic socks. :)


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

KJUNRebel
08-02-2012, 11:07 AM
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

They also didn't use yeasts - boiled or not - since they weren't known about yet. If you are using dead yeasts, then you are "cheating" as much as using purchased "dead" yeast nutrients, right? Just teasing, but this is heading somewhere.

Remember that they weren't using ultrafiltered honey. (This was alluded to in another post within this thread, of course.) They were using crush and strained honey (at least for the wealthy's mead) that was poorly filtered - if at all. It contained a LOT of suspended pollen. There is your nutrient source!

If you want to try "natural" - by whatever definition - why not add a couple teaspoons of pollen to the must?
KJ

mccann51
08-02-2012, 12:04 PM
If you're gonna go the pollen route, search the forums as this method has been discussed at some length. In short, it's a pretty weak form of nutrient. I've tried it in the past and wouldn't waste my time now, YMMV.

KJUNRebel
08-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Sure, it'll be weak compared to the "artificial" chemicals and methods. It would be the most "natural" method, though, if after a "traditional" mead based on "what they probably did 500 years ago." Don't you think?

Quotes because defining most of those terms is as slippery as defining "fair."
KJ

wiltshiremead
08-03-2012, 07:25 AM
Thanks akueck for the history of mead making.
I'm not sure if I'd like to include beef and rooster for my next recipe yet though.

Well, my must is four days old and so far I added six packets (7g each) of boiled bread yeast over two days. It was happily bubbling away on the day 3 so I didn't add any more. The must has about 1/2 inch of foam still on top, I can hear tiny champagne bubbles rising up. So far so good I think... :D
I will take SG reading soon and see how much sugar has been converted but smell is still gogerous and alcoholic ;D I might add one more nutrients at some point if SG is still way way ahead.

In the meanwhile, I bought loads of strawberry, washed and prepared (took ages!) and they are in my freezer while I am thinking about my next move ;)