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shanek17
08-03-2012, 08:41 PM
I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE I SHOULD POST THIS TOPIC , AS I DID NOT SEE A FORUM SECTION FOR SANITIZATION. MODERATOR IF THERE IS A BETTER PLACE TO STICK THIS TOPIC PLEASE DO SO.

I found this video awhile ago and found it interesting. its good to see things from another point of view. this video features bannana brewing in africa! i find it cool how relaxed they are with their procedures and their brewing beer which is generally lower alcohol, which means it would probably spoil before a high alcohol percent wine. i dont know for sure the percentage they are making but w.e their method is , it appears to be working!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fb-JwtE4Lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I have also heard these things about alcohol from various sources.

Alcohol used to be drank by our ancestors frequently, as it was often times safer to drink than water and it was also used for healing. Alcohol naturally has alcohol in it which keeps it clean. There are also other specific ingredients that can be added to help preserve and keep the integrity of the beer or wine, Such as adding hops to the beer. Honey also has strong integrity as it can last thousands of years on its own without spoiling.

mediaguru
08-04-2012, 02:00 PM
Yes, even kids used to drink beer in medieval times (generally "small beers" which means just a little bit of alcohol to fend off worse things)


However, as for that African banana beer... I have a friend who spent a year traveling around Africa after being laid off. Suddenly he posted on his blog that he was violently ill, deliriously sick. He had gotten amoebic or bacterial dysentery of some sort.

You know what he said did it? The local banana brew because it turns out they are too lax with their safety and sanitation standards when making it...

Kelvin
08-04-2012, 05:38 PM
Yeah, it only takes one time to get something bad. I'll stick with my constant dip and spraying in starsan.

shanek17
08-04-2012, 09:10 PM
Yes, even kids used to drink beer in medieval times (generally "small beers" which means just a little bit of alcohol to fend off worse things)


However, as for that African banana beer... I have a friend who spent a year traveling around Africa after being laid off. Suddenly he posted on his blog that he was violently ill, deliriously sick. He had gotten amoebic or bacterial dysentery of some sort.

You know what he said did it? The local banana brew because it turns out they are too lax with their safety and sanitation standards when making it...

Well it sounds like it may have been your friend with the problem , not the beer. Some people have trouble adapting to things and they see things as foreign attackers and get sick. Also you mentioned he was a foreigner travelling in another country which can be hard to adapt to that. I do agree a beer should be clean and you should practice good sanitary beer making but theres no need to be obsessive about cleaning every little thing. I seen a guy on youtube who was spraying down EVERYTHING , he even sanitized the yeast package before opening it.... I wonder if he tried to spray and sanitize the entire atmosphere around him before filming his video.

People like that should just get a big plastic bubble and they can make and drink their beers in there, and try an hide from the world. lol JK

Kelvin
08-04-2012, 09:38 PM
Yeast package says to sanitize the package before opening using. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Just saying.

wiltshiremead
08-05-2012, 03:34 PM
I seen a guy on youtube who was spraying down EVERYTHING , he even sanitized the yeast package before opening it.... I wonder if he tried to spray and sanitize the entire atmosphere around him before filming his video.
:eek: :rolleyes:
The thing is you can never get your environment clean enough unless you make your brew in one of those hospital isolation rooms where there is absolutely no germs, fungi, bacteria lives. It's all in the air...on you...everywhere.

shanek17
08-05-2012, 04:57 PM
:eek: :rolleyes:
The thing is you can never get your environment clean enough unless you make your brew in one of those hospital isolation rooms where there is absolutely no germs, fungi, bacteria lives. It's all in the air...on you...everywhere.

EXACTLY! The yeasties have been adapting and living along side these things in the air and on surfaces for thousands of years. Thats why id be funny if the guy was actually trying to sanitize the air around him lol. Besides air cleans itself because of the way its made. I look at this like the fact that today people obsess over being sanitary and physically clean, and it isnt good for immune system. I recently red an article about how people with allergies would benefit from getting outdoors and garden or go into the woods and adapt to nature, instead of hiding indoors all the time. Theres no need to sanitize every little thing for brewing. Lets give the yeasties and alcohol some credit and let them show their strengths!

shanek17
08-05-2012, 04:57 PM
Yeast package says to sanitize the package before opening using. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Just saying.

yes.... and they also sell you the sanitizer. See what im sayin here?

wiltshiremead
08-05-2012, 06:08 PM
yes.... and they also sell you the sanitizer. See what im sayin here?
Good point!

Before I started to study about yeast/mold, I was fearful about fermenting. But since I spent sometime studying, I've come to understand that we live in a soup of both good and bad molds or yeast whatever you wanna call it. Yeast is basically mold. This soup of mold in our environment is a community (or must in our brewing case), all fighting their places. However, for one of the strain to take hold of the community, the condition must be right e.g. nutrients and most importantly temperature because each strain has its preferred temperature so you can control one mold growing from the other by means of temperature alone.

I have like six months old fermented beetroot and lemons in my bridge and they are good!

God knows how many strains of yeast and bacteria we need in our gut to help digestion, to extract nutrients from the food we've eaten. Without their help, we can't extract nutrients.

If you look at how people ferment stuff in a traditional way, they don't sanitize their wear. It's been like that for 100s of years and build up of yeast is the taste.

For example,
- wiltshire cured bacon - temperature controlled room but they dip pork in liquid to cure again and again
- People who makes cider with natural yeast...gosh you should have seen the shed and barrels but that's how they make it. Not like stainless steeled, sanitized factory.
- Soya source, again huge wooden container that never get sanitaized. God forbid, that's like killing the colony! It's the saturation of one strain, when the condition is right, it produce products.

Anyway, some of this stuff isn't about brewing alcohol but it's the same because it's about fermenting.

Kelvin
08-05-2012, 06:11 PM
OK brew in your bathroom and don't wash your hands and use dirty buckets. Fine by me. Me, I'll stick to taking precautions and trying ot make clean and good brews. Obviously you don't get everything, neither do hospitals yet they still sanitize. I wonder why? Make your stinky no dirty brews all day and drink them til your content. I'll stick with doing it right.

Soyala_Amaya
08-05-2012, 10:39 PM
OK brew in your bathroom and don't wash your hands and use dirty buckets. Fine by me. Me, I'll stick to taking precautions and trying ot make clean and good brews. Obviously you don't get everything, neither do hospitals yet they still sanitize. I wonder why? Make your stinky no dirty brews all day and drink them til your content. I'll stick with doing it right.

Agreed. I also find it amazing that all of these wine companies that use sanitation and clean methods are the ones who produce and sell massive amounts of wine, while this banana beer is created by a group of impoverished, isolated tribal people who often DO get sick off of what they drink. Bacteria, parasites, plain ol' dirt and germs are everywhere in what you've posted. I don't look at the post and think "Huh, maybe I don't need to sanitize as much" I think "Oh my goodness, what poor people, I wish I could do something to ease their extreme poverty."

Please cease arguing a case that has a very poor base. Do what you want, but I won't trade bottles with you.

Chevette Girl
08-05-2012, 11:38 PM
I think the point is to do the best you can with sanitation (I've used unsanitized jars for JAO's many times, so even "clean" may be enough for primary, considering that we often put fruit in there that has been touched by our hands which are near impossible to completely sanitize) but also do recognize that you don't work in a clean room setting, and you don't need to panic and toss the whole batch if a speck of dust (or wayward ferret (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139126&postcount=1)) should settle in your must.

lupilu
08-06-2012, 06:43 AM
On the one hand, the guy probably got sick because coming from a country that focuses on sanitization, his immune system is not up for protecting him against the nasties in the banana brew, whereas the African's live there, eat there and drink that unsanitized stuff all the time so they have a strong immune system to deal with it.

On the other, western obsession with sanitizing our environment is what made MRSA.

Personally, I'll keep on sanitizing my brew stuff, simply because if I make a batch, I want to give it the best chance of brewing right and because I really don't want to look in my brew bucket/carboy and see mould growing in it. If I make a batch, I wanna be able to drink it.

But I do agree that in life in general, we fear germs too much. Our ancestors lived sanitization free for literally hundreds of thousands of years and as a race we're going strong.

wiltshiremead
08-06-2012, 08:50 AM
I think the point is to do the best you can with sanitation (I've used unsanitized jars for JAO's many times, so even "clean" may be enough for primary, considering that we often put fruit in there that has been touched by our hands which are near impossible to completely sanitize) but also do recognize that you don't work in a clean room setting, and you don't need to panic and toss the whole batch if a speck of dust (or wayward ferret (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139126&postcount=1)) should settle in your must.
EXACTLY. I wasn't saying, don't ever sanitize when making brew :rolleyes:
I wouldn't wanna go to toilet, not wash my hands or use an unwashed knife that has been used to cut a raw chicken for example. The point is reasonable precaution should be taken for preparing brew but not to let it become OCD.


But I do agree that in life in general, we fear germs too much. Our ancestors lived sanitization free for literally hundreds of thousands of years and as a race we're going strong.
That's right, they didn't have sanitizer and still made mead, wine, cheese etc.
If you look into the history of these fermented products, chances are that when there was no fridge, food were left or even forgotten in a cave storage, months after they've discovered that they have gone moldy but also tasted good and it became cheese etc. So these tasty things have been created by mistake. Later on, it all became science.

mediaguru
08-06-2012, 11:08 AM
On the one hand, the guy probably got sick because coming from a country that focuses on sanitization, his immune system is not up for protecting him against the nasties in the banana brew, whereas the African's live there, eat there and drink that unsanitized stuff all the time so they have a strong immune system to deal with it.

On the other, western obsession with sanitizing our environment is what made MRSA.

...

Our ancestors lived sanitization free for literally hundreds of thousands of years and as a race we're going strong.


And on the third hand, we have the fact that the average lifespan in the middle ages was about 30-something years old, and it is now more than double that. Hygiene and sanitation have big parts to play in that fact. Our ancestors were not "going strong" -- you don't have to live long in order to reproduce. Insects live a matter of days and yet they are still "going strong"; our ancestors had babies at the age of 14 or 15 and were dead by the time they were 30.

Today, thanks to things like sanitation and modern science's understanding of what germs are, what they do, and how to avoid them, the live expectancy is up to 80-something years old in several first-world countries.

I'm not sure I'd trust drinking an unsanitized banana brew in a country where the current average life expectancy is about 50 years old.

Soyala_Amaya
08-06-2012, 11:38 AM
Wait…what? I’m sorry, you posted a link about tribal African’s brewing a type of beer by leaving outside in a tree and making comments about “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” and from that we’re supposed to infer that you only meant not to be OCD about sanitation? Nope, sorry, your evidence does not support your conclusion. I agree with your edited conclusion, have for a long time, modern wine yeast is pretty good at kicking the butt of most nasties during primary fermentation, but not the original premise.

All of your evidence, tribal poverty, medieval methods, claiming that the only reason I’d get sick drinking something that’s sat outside for a month is because I haven’t acclimated my body to the bacteria, so on and so forth, is all making false conclusions of CHOICE. The second there is a better option (I.e. refrigeration, sanitation, and yes science) humanity tends to take it. No one puts there food in a cave then eats it when it molds because they want to. They do it so they won’t STARVE.

And yes, I wil get sick if I leave my home country and eat unprocessed food. It's not because I don't go outside and have no immune system. It's because it is literally impossible for me to build up an immunity to diseases in Africa when I live in America! Hell, I could get sick from a mutation of a bacteria driving from New England to California, forget crossing the ocean! Ever heard of smallpox and how it killed 75-90% of the North American population? Are you going to tell me that Native Americans just "didn't bother to go outside enough to build up their immune systems?"

And yes, our ancestors got sick. They died. The discovery of the bacteria and proper sanitation methods has helped with a lot of that, but even today it still happens. Try looking up the debate over selling and drinking raw milk sometime. Or wait for the next batch of e-coli to get through because some farm’s irrigation got the cow’s crap into the water supply.

All of your arguments are based on the idea that all of your out dated methods were perfectly fine and people chose to do them.

Wrong.

wiltshiremead
08-06-2012, 11:55 AM
mediaguru, I take it you won't be drinking one of those alcoholic beverage where everyone swishes the corn in their mouth and spitting out into a big barrel to ferment ;D

Who said, drink ecoli :rolleyes:
Yes, ecoli and other nasties are in our gut but everything is kept in check by other bacteria. Yes, give them the right condition, they will florish and you get sick.

Just put into perspective, bacteria and yeasts serves very important part in our lives.

It amuses me to think that mum's first birthday present to me was a slathering of vaginal microbes.....If I was born via C-section, I would have ended up with a different set of colonisers, from my mum's skin and from the hospital environment.

An American doctor, Alexander Khoruts, has treated people with crippling gut infections by - and brace yourselves if you are a bit squeamish - basically giving people poo transplants.

He has taken the gut bacteria of a healthy person and put them inside a sick person. No-one quite knows why it works, but it seems to. This is really early science, but it heralds a future where we may be able to more deliberately manipulate our gut passengers to improve our health. If I go to a doctor, maybe she will check my gut type as well as my blood type.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15356016


Obviously, you can't just gulp poo, that would make you sick but like this doctor, if procedure is done right, it can cure people suffering from IBS, C-diff type of serious illness. Basically, our gut houses an awful lot of bacteria, it's not a sweage system, it's actually a big part of immune system. If you read the above article, you will understand, anti-biotics kills so many good bacteria as well that people's immune system are destroyed hence more and more people developing allergy and illness.

I think there is lot more to this yeast, bacteria business than just sanitize them all.

If you are not convinced, I think you'd better wear a mask 24/7 because I know you have just breathed in that black mold spore :D I can guarantee you that there is black mold spore floating in the air where you sit. Yes, it's everywhere but if you are healthy, it is all kept under check.

Vandall
08-06-2012, 12:08 PM
Personally I try to be as sanitary as possible when making mead, however, the real reason for my reply is to say...

Mediaguru has 3 hands????

Soyala_Amaya
08-06-2012, 12:46 PM
If you are not convinced, I think you'd better wear a mask 24/7 because I know you have just breathed in that black mold spore

Really...out of everything I just said that's what you brought it down to. Done. Completely done. Over and out.

mediaguru
08-06-2012, 03:50 PM
Personally I try to be as sanitary as possible when making mead, however, the real reason for my reply is to say...

Mediaguru has 3 hands????

Sorry, I don't have a profile set up with my portrait, but here it is ;D:

http://www.deviantart.com/download/145699546/Colored_Squid_Beer_by_y2hecate.jpg

Midnight Sun
08-06-2012, 07:59 PM
There isn't anything magical about the disinfectant properties of alcohol, it is just a question of concentration. Anything above 20% ABV or so is going to be too toxic for microorganisms to survive in. Less than that, the doors are open for an infection. For those that might pan sanitizing a yeast packet before opening and pitching into beer, hey be my guest and risk loosing $40-60 worth of materials. The lower alcohol level of beer makes it very susceptible to infection.

As for beer in the Middle Ages being safer than ordinary water, that is true but not because of the alcohol present. It is because beer is boiled 45-90 minutes. The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends vigorously boiling untreated water for 1 minute, 3 minutes if above 2,000m elevation. They also state that boiling is the most effective method for making water safe to drink. If a 1 minute boil is sufficient to sanitize drinking water, then 45 minutes is most certainly going to do the trick.


I think there is lot more to this yeast, bacteria business than just sanitize them all.

If you are not convinced, I think you'd better wear a mask 24/7 because I know you have just breathed in that black mold spore :D I can guarantee you that there is black mold spore floating in the air where you sit. Yes, it's everywhere but if you are healthy, it is all kept under check.

As Soyala said, somewhere between 75-90% of the North and South American indigenous population was wiped out by European diseases. And what about the Black Death plagues in the 1300's that killed off 1/3 of the European population? AIDS? While I certainly agree that there is more to microorganisms than simple destruction, some things will simply overwhelm the healthiest person.

wiltshiremead
08-07-2012, 06:24 AM
I've made another thread (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20264) if you would like to vote :p

shanek17
08-07-2012, 08:32 PM
OK brew in your bathroom and don't wash your hands and use dirty buckets. Fine by me. Me, I'll stick to taking precautions and trying ot make clean and good brews. Obviously you don't get everything, neither do hospitals yet they still sanitize. I wonder why? Make your stinky no dirty brews all day and drink them til your content. I'll stick with doing it right.

Okay then haha; theres no need to get offended and go on a rant about something i never said and something id never do. I was simply sharing a point of view that most do not appreciate or talk about in this hobby... I guess there too busy sanitizing something. 8)

shanek17
08-07-2012, 08:43 PM
And on the third hand, we have the fact that the average lifespan in the middle ages was about 30-something years old, and it is now more than double that. Hygiene and sanitation have big parts to play in that fact. Our ancestors were not "going strong" -- you don't have to live long in order to reproduce. Insects live a matter of days and yet they are still "going strong"; our ancestors had babies at the age of 14 or 15 and were dead by the time they were 30.

Today, thanks to things like sanitation and modern science's understanding of what germs are, what they do, and how to avoid them, the live expectancy is up to 80-something years old in several first-world countries.

I'm not sure I'd trust drinking an unsanitized banana brew in a country where the current average life expectancy is about 50 years old.

So your argument AGAINST "our ancestors are going strong" is that we live longer now then compared to the middle ages.... Okay you need to look more into history and not just focus on the shitty middle ages, excuse my language, but there are ancestors of ours that not only thrived but were highly developed, intelligent and had a great quality of life, I would imagine their age reflected in on this as well.

Kelvin
08-07-2012, 09:30 PM
So your argument AGAINST "our ancestors are going strong" is that we live longer now then compared to the middle ages.... Okay you need to look more into history and not just focus on the shitty middle ages, excuse my language, but there are ancestors of ours that not only thrived but were highly developed, intelligent and had a great quality of life, I would imagine their age reflected in on this as well.

They probably used proper sanitation techniques. Again, you want to take chances with your hard work then by all means go ahead. I fail to see why you deride people who do their best to prevent infections. What is your point? You dont care about being sanitary so anyone that does is just stupid? Is this yor point? If not then what is?

shanek17
08-07-2012, 10:39 PM
They probably used proper sanitation techniques. Again, you want to take chances with your hard work then by all means go ahead. I fail to see why you deride people who do their best to prevent infections. What is your point? You dont care about being sanitary so anyone that does is just stupid? Is this yor point? If not then what is?

I am bringing up this topic to shed more light on this, i enjoy sharing and enjoy hearing others thoughts on this stuff. Iv just noticed that when talking about sanitation most people are one sided and thats a shame when theres clearly other things to consider. I support the facts that brewing beverages already have the means to protect themselves, (for the most part). Such as having a decent alcohol percentage and using strong yeast and other good quality ingredients. Iv heard on james spencers pod cast that beer hops actually have their own way to protect the beer naturally, its also been mentioned that honey is very very very good at keeping its quality even after thousands of years. Even wine grapes have some levels of sulfites to again aid in preserving this awesome beverage. Its as if its been designed with alot of good things already ready to go..

After considering these things amongst other things iv noticed, I am just reevaluating my sanitization methods... YES i sanitize too, im simply trying to distinguish what is real here about sanitizing. IV noticed there are alot of people that are OCD about sanitizing and also that there is a huge market for sanitizers. The companies that sell them mostly stress sanitizing everything and leave the true details vague enough so that people dont know any better and simply sanitize everything all the time. For example when the alcohol has developed to a strong percent its going to be even stronger and therefore the wine has another barrier of protection. Did a sanitizing company tell me this ? NO I talked with others about it like mature adults and gathered what I felt to be real. So far Iv had some encounters where dirty accidents happen , and i worried and waited too see if the batch was spoiled and when it came bottling time they tasted great!

Kelvin
08-07-2012, 11:44 PM
So? That doesn't mean that sanitizing is not needed. It doesn't mean that it won't happen. Calling someone OCD about having good sanitation practices is pretty much counter productive to a website that is about making the best mead one can. You can go without sanitizing 100 times and not have any adverse effects. That doesn't mean the next one won't. There's no reason to not be clean if you have the means to do so. And give me a break with these sanitizing companies. Iodophor is like $5.00 for 100's of gallons the same with starsan. There's absolutely no reason to be lazy and not sanitize whenever possible unless you are trying to prove some farcical point. I'll tell ya what. When SHTF and I run out of sanitizer I'll just use my homemade soap and water to clean. Until then I'll go ahead and do it the right way.

You talked to them like mature adults? Like right now? Like saying how people being OCD and implying they have issues because they like to be clean with their production? That's adult? Sounds like a high schooler arguing about cleaning his room to me.

Out of curiosity, what does this massive sterilization industry say to sanitize that you wouldn't? You are talking about your sanitizing practices... so what are you planning to stop sanitizing? Your aerator? Your spoon? Your wine thief? What? And if so why? Is it that hard to dip a wine thief into a bucket before you use it?

Why take a chance in ruining your batch? One use of starsan is like $.20 if that. A 5 gallon batch of whatever could cost $40 or $50. Not to mention time. I fail to see any good argument for not sanitizing other than foot stomping.

Soyala_Amaya
08-08-2012, 03:13 PM
Kelvin, you've gone on much longer than I have and I know I said I was done, and I am with everyone else on this thread. But I DO have a response for you

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Please-Don-t-Feed-the-Troll-atsof-573296_300_336.jpg

(And yes, anyone who responds to EVERY response they get with insults and childish oversimplifications is a troll.)

kudapucat
08-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Thing about trolling is: you're sure to catch SOMETHING, every time.

Riverat
08-08-2012, 08:05 PM
LOL!!! Soyala

wiltshiremead
08-09-2012, 01:37 PM
Thanks for calling me a troll soyaya!!!

Penguinetti
08-09-2012, 06:16 PM
...

On the other, western obsession with sanitizing our environment is what made MRSA...
But I do agree that in life in general, we fear germs too much. Our ancestors lived sanitization free for literally hundreds of thousands of years and as a race we're going strong.

That's right. And you know what? I don't wash my hands after I pee. TAKE THAT MRSA!! I"M NOT AFRAID OF YOU!!!


Personally I try to be as sanitary as possible when making mead, however, the real reason for my reply is to say...

Mediaguru has 3 hands????

You don't????

wildoates
08-09-2012, 11:28 PM
Yeah, it only takes one time to get something bad. I'll stick with my constant dip and spraying in starsan.


Me too. I fear the beast, and do NOT want to waste a large amount of honey by being careless.

Chevette Girl
08-10-2012, 12:07 PM
That's right. And you know what? I don't wash my hands after I pee. TAKE THAT MRSA!! I"M NOT AFRAID OF YOU!!!


Dude? TMI. And if we ever meet, I'm not shaking your hand. ;D

Penguinetti
08-10-2012, 12:26 PM
Dude? TMI. And if we ever meet, I'm not shaking your hand. ;D

I see... so you prefer to straight up hug it out.


I respect that. ;)

Chevette Girl
08-10-2012, 02:16 PM
I see... so you prefer to straight up hug it out.


I respect that. ;)

<mumble> respect the hell outta you with a wet-wipe... icky boy... </mumble>

Just be careful, it's surprising how quickly a hug can be turned into a koshi nage (hip-throw)...

Ettels4
08-10-2012, 03:52 PM
A clarification... While it is certainly questionable where and when we sanitize in the western world... MRSA prevalence is the result of artificial selection of resistant Staph. Aureus from methicillin/antibiotic use in humans. Not from sanitizing our hands/homes/hospitals or homebrew equipment.

Soyala_Amaya
08-10-2012, 04:04 PM
[COLOR="PurpleJust be careful, it's surprising how quickly a hug can be turned into a koshi nage (hip-throw)... [/COLOR]

I did that to my boyfriend once during Steal the Wench...he was very shocked ;D Shouldn't give someone with wrestling experience that much of an opening!

Penguinetti
08-10-2012, 06:13 PM
<mumble> respect the hell outta you with a wet-wipe... icky boy... </mumble>

Just be careful, it's surprising how quickly a hug can be turned into a koshi nage (hip-throw)...


I did that to my boyfriend once during Steal the Wench...he was very shocked ;D Shouldn't give someone with wrestling experience that much of an opening!

I only took 4 months of Aikido, but I wrestled for 9 years... PLUS I'm awesome at giving hugs...



...you have been warned.



Besides, I actually do wash my hands after I pee, I just felt like this thread deserved a little more nonsense.

Riverat
08-10-2012, 07:11 PM
LOL, well this discussion has certainly taken life!
I will say I think we may be raising some children in so sterile an environment that the result is sometime immunologically dysfunctional adults.
I was a barefoot kid in late fifties and sixties Florida, wandering family farms, both row crop and cattle; also wandering the everglades (still barefoot) exposed to germs yet to be classified and bitten by bugs since gone extinct, I believe this to be a part of my good health and resistance to infection.
That said, I hardly see this as endorsement of wallowing in filth or failing to prepare ones food and drink in an appropriately sanitary manor.
When brewing beer I am strictly on top of sanitation, a bit less so when crafting mead. Not so much so for fear of my health, as I do get that very little that can actually harm you can live in beer and more so in mead.
But a great many things would love to take up residence in wort or must for the time it takes for them to be overcome by the yeast and the alcohol and contribute things I may not want there. If we want to develop our skills to the point of repeatability, reasonable sanitation is pretty much a given.

Msarro
08-10-2012, 07:45 PM
Honestly, you need to remember what is happening when you brew. You're essentially creating a big batch of food for some foreign organism to eat. In science we call it a substrate (same with mycology). And usually you have enough yeast that it will take on its own, and it will quickly overcome any invaders.

However, some times the invaders outnumber the yeast, and when that happens you'll get vinegar.

Still other times you'll get invaders and they'll ultimately get overtaken by yeast, but not before byproducts of their eating sugar get put into the brew. Now I know this usually doesn't happen with brewing, but when growing mushrooms it can be deadly (chemicals produced by, say, black mold can be transferred by the good mushrooms and become dangerous to eat).

So, I'll stick with sanitation. This is one time I trust the science.

Penguinetti
08-10-2012, 08:41 PM
Honestly, you need to remember what is happening when you brew. You're essentially creating a big batch of food for some foreign organism to eat. In science we call it a substrate (same with mycology). And usually you have enough yeast that it will take on its own, and it will quickly overcome any invaders.

However, some times the invaders outnumber the yeast, and when that happens you'll get vinegar.

Still other times you'll get invaders and they'll ultimately get overtaken by yeast, but not before byproducts of their eating sugar get put into the brew. Now I know this usually doesn't happen with brewing, but when growing mushrooms it can be deadly (chemicals produced by, say, black mold can be transferred by the good mushrooms and become dangerous to eat).

So, I'll stick with sanitation. This is one time I trust the science.

From this quote, I got this:

That brew is a warzone between yeasts and outsiders. Warzones are always littered with casualties. Casualties will eff up your brew.


So make brew, not war.

shanek17
08-15-2012, 07:07 PM
an interesting article im reading now that goes along with what im talking about in this thread...really I should just make a whole new thread regarding the natural integrity of mead!...maybe if i can find some time ill make this thread, im sure there are others with tidbits to share on this subject. As you can notice below they mention hydrogen peroxide in honey...hmmmm when i researched sanitizers I came across hydrogen peroxide many times, thats interesting and its naturally found in honey.

Composition of Honey

We are all likely familiar with honey as a sweetener. As meadmakers, it helps us to know that honey is around 80% sugars, with glucose and fructose being the most abundant. It also contains other sugars — including maltose and sucrose — in smaller percentages. Honey contains acids, most notably gluconic acid, and has a low pH — ranging from 3.4–6.1 and averaging 3.9. The protein content of the honey and water mixture that becomes mead is very low, so yeast nutrients are needed to ensure proper yeast health. The water content of honey varies from 15 to 20%, with most examples hovering around 17%. The low amount of water is sufficient to suppress the growth of most potentially contaminating microorganisms.

Honey is made by honey bees (Apis mellifera) and few other species of bees. Worker bees visit flowers and gather nectar, a dilute sucrose solution. In their crop (the sac that holds the nectar), most of the sucrose is split into fructose and glucose by an enzyme called invertase. A second enzyme, glucose oxidase, converts some of the glucose into gluconic acid and hydrogen peroxide.

Mead: From Nectar to Nirvana

https://winemakermag.com/stories/article/indices/27-meadmaking/497-mead-from-nectar-to-nirvana

Midnight Sun
08-15-2012, 11:45 PM
While I did not know that honey naturally has hydrogen peroxide, it is fairly common knowledge that honey has a number of antiseptic qualities. Thus eliminating the need to sterilize honey before usage.

One major antiseptic component is the high concentration of sugars. This is basically identical to the mechanism behind salted meats in the days of yore. A microorganism lands in the honey. The honey has a higher concentration of sugar than the liquid contained in the cell walls. Water migrates out of the cell wall and into the honey, causing either dormancy or death of the cell. Pretty neat I think!

Now, let's say you take your honey and mix it with treated water. I would readily argue that for all intents and purposes the must initially has a very low microorganism count, at least if you mix and store using sanitized components. I would also argue, however, that you have just made bug food, as you have diluted the sugars and other natural antiseptics to a level where microorganisms can now thrive. Microorganisms landing in your bug food are going to start chowing down and multiplying. And these microorganisms don't necessarily have to be yeast.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.

Chevette Girl
08-16-2012, 01:33 AM
The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.

Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17271)came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.

Penguinetti
08-16-2012, 08:45 AM
an interesting article im reading now that goes along with what im talking about in this thread...hmmmm when i researched sanitizers I came across hydrogen peroxide many times, thats interesting and its naturally found in honey...

I would like it if you could do me one and entertain this idea for me. Make a hypothesis of what you're trying to say (that we shouldn't sanitize or that honey is a sanitizer or whatever it is that this thread is ultimately going for). Then purposefully, deliberately, and with effort, try to debunct your own hypothesis.

Debate it with yourself, and see if you can change your own mind.

Soyala_Amaya
08-16-2012, 11:22 AM
The water content of honey varies from 15 to 20%, with most examples hovering around 17%. The low amount of water is sufficient to suppress the growth of most potentially contaminating microorganisms.

This right here is really the key point. The second you add more water to honey, the potential for the growth of micro-organisms grow. It is, in it's most basic terms, exactly what we are doing with mead. Diluting the honey with enough water so the yeast (a type of fungus) can grow. This can happen in wild hives after a good rain too. There are some historians who believe that wild fermented honey was one of the first introductions of alcohol to humanity.

So yes...honey is very sanitary all alone. However, we are not leaving it alone. It is no longer JUST honey.

Wingnut
08-16-2012, 12:46 PM
You know, this is just an observation, and I am really new to this Mead Making.
I was planning to give some of my "project" to friends and family. Just as a nice thing to do, homemade Mead, bring it to a BBQ or friends house, etc.
I would feel really really bad if I just happen to give a gift to someone and it ended up being bad or even worse it made someone ill. (Just shoot me)
Especially if I could have avoided it, if I was ensuring good sanitation practices while I worked.

Why take a chance? It isn't hard.
If you would like to think some of us are clean freaks, overkill, etc. OK by me.

But rest assured, on the off chance you ever happen to get a bottle of my stuff, it may not be the best you ever had, but at least you will know it won't be a safety concern....

shanek17
08-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17271)came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.

Okay so let me get this straight, this person took really hot boiled water, (which destroys integrity of honey) and added it to a "honey bear". Okay honey bear reminds me of those plastic bear shaped honey containers in grocery stores. So thats another big variable that I should clarify. Honey in grocery stores IS NOT the same as honey from a natural honey farm! I see alot of my freinds on facebook posting the same thing about most store bought honey being FAKE. but thats another whole story.. Ill post 2 links here that i found on google, if your interested in this.



Shock finding: More than 75 percent of all 'honey' sold in grocery stores contains no honey at all

http://www.naturalnews.com/034102_honey_consumer_alert.html

Is your Honey Fake?
http://blog.fooducate.com/2011/11/21/is-your-honey-fake/

Okay so this person found mold on their honey, but it might not even officially be honey! and even if it does contain real honey, they pasteurize it and do other things to the honey to deem it worthy to sit on a shelf and remain a liquid. Iv heard from people that high heat destroys the integrity of the honey! I also heard a guy talking about his natural organic honey , and he casually brought this up, " oh if you get a little mold on the top of the honey..just scrape it off and throw it out. (he just threw out the little bit of mold not the entire jar of honey)

So, just to clarify, When im talking about the natural integrity of honey, im talking about REAL NATURAL HONEY!

Penguinetti
08-16-2012, 02:56 PM
While I did not know that honey naturally has hydrogen peroxide, it is fairly common knowledge that honey has a number of antiseptic qualities. Thus eliminating the need to sterilize honey before usage.

One major antiseptic component is the high concentration of sugars. This is basically identical to the mechanism behind salted meats in the days of yore. A microorganism lands in the honey. The honey has a higher concentration of sugar than the liquid contained in the cell walls. Water migrates out of the cell wall and into the honey, causing either dormancy or death of the cell. Pretty neat I think!

Now, let's say you take your honey and mix it with treated water. I would readily argue that for all intents and purposes the must initially has a very low microorganism count, at least if you mix and store using sanitized components. I would also argue, however, that you have just made bug food, as you have diluted the sugars and other natural antiseptics to a level where microorganisms can now thrive. Microorganisms landing in your bug food are going to start chowing down and multiplying. And these microorganisms don't necessarily have to be yeast.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.


Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17271)came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.


This right here is really the key point. The second you add more water to honey, the potential for the growth of micro-organisms grow. It is, in it's most basic terms, exactly what we are doing with mead. Diluting the honey with enough water so the yeast (a type of fungus) can grow. This can happen in wild hives after a good rain too. There are some historians who believe that wild fermented honey was one of the first introductions of alcohol to humanity.

So yes...honey is very sanitary all alone. However, we are not leaving it alone. It is no longer JUST honey.


You know, this is just an observation, and I am really new to this Mead Making.
I was planning to give some of my "project" to friends and family. Just as a nice thing to do, homemade Mead, bring it to a BBQ or friends house, etc.
I would feel really really bad if I just happen to give a gift to someone and it ended up being bad or even worse it made someone ill. (Just shoot me)
Especially if I could have avoided it, if I was ensuring good sanitation practices while I worked.

Why take a chance? It isn't hard.
If you would like to think some of us are clean freaks, overkill, etc. OK by me.

But rest assured, on the off chance you ever happen to get a bottle of my stuff, it may not be the best you ever had, but at least you will know it won't be a safety concern....


Out of all these posts, you manage to single out the only one that deals with a specific example. Are you using this specific example, then, to refute all of the other posts? The other posts deal with "REAL NATURAL HONEY" in terms of hypotheticals.


I also heard a guy talking about his natural organic honey , and he casually brought this up, " oh if you get a little mold on the top of the honey..just scrape it off and throw it out. (he just threw out the little bit of mold not the entire jar of honey)

So, just to clarify, When im talking about the natural integrity of honey, im talking about REAL NATURAL HONEY!


So just to clarify what you said, that some guy who was speaking about his "natural organic honey" said that it is possible for mold to grow on honey? Doesn't that go against you saying honey won't grow mold?


Like I said before, take whatever theory you have come up with, and try to refute it yourself. You might actually come up with the same arguments these other people are bringing up.

EDIT: oh, and "this person" (who you can easily address as Chevette Girl, or Chevette, or speak to her directly even) said about 1T of water into roughly 1 cup of honey. That's a ratio of 1:16. Not very much, IMHO.

shanek17
08-16-2012, 03:16 PM
Wait…what? I’m sorry, you posted a link about tribal African’s brewing a type of beer by leaving outside in a tree and making comments about “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” and from that we’re supposed to infer that you only meant not to be OCD about sanitation?

What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

Just because Im sharing a video that shows a different perspective on sanitization doesnt mean I dont think "we dont have to be sanitary after all".

And just because Im sharing info about natures natural protection doesnt mean I am against homebrewers sanitizing.

shanek17
08-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Out of all these posts, you manage to single out the only one that deals with a specific example. Are you using this specific example, then, to refute all of the other posts? The other posts deal with "REAL NATURAL HONEY" in terms of hypotheticals.




So just to clarify what you said, that some guy who was speaking about his "natural organic honey" said that it is possible for mold to grow on honey? Doesn't that go against you saying honey won't grow mold?


Like I said before, take whatever theory you have come up with, and try to refute it yourself. You might actually come up with the same arguments these other people are bringing up.

EDIT: oh, and "this person" (who you can easily address as Chevette Girl, or Chevette, or speak to her directly even) said about 1T of water into roughly 1 cup of honey. That's a ratio of 1:16. Not very much, IMHO.


Dilution of mead with water is a important factor to consider, and im glad it was brought up, it doesnt mean I dont agree with you guys on that.

and Apparently mold can grow on pure honey, thats what this guy said. Now is that a big deal? according to this guy, no , just scrape it off and continue using it. From what Iv heard from various sources, mold isnt as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Iv even had a freind tell me its okay to eat moldy cheese lol. but its not something I will experiment with because I dont know alot about mold.

Midnight Sun
08-16-2012, 05:06 PM
Huh, never heard about mold growing on top of honey. Perhaps it happens in a pocket of lower gravity that tend to occur as honey crystallizes.

If I had a batch of honey with mold, I would scrape it off as you suggested and give it a try. I wouldn't use it for an important mead (wedding gift or such) or one with expensive ingredients, though. I'd consider it an experimental batch with a bonus at the end if it turned out ok. Mold spores are remarkably tough, so if you had mold in your honey then you can guarantee that you have mold spores that didn't get scraped up. I figure that my pitched yeast would overwhelm the nasties. Of course, I would choose a yeast with a high competitive factor like K1V-1116 ;)

shanek17
08-16-2012, 05:29 PM
Huh, never heard about mold growing on top of honey. Perhaps it happens in a pocket of lower gravity that tend to occur as honey crystallizes.

If I had a batch of honey with mold, I would scrape it off as you suggested and give it a try. I wouldn't use it for an important mead (wedding gift or such) or one with expensive ingredients, though. I'd consider it an experimental batch with a bonus at the end if it turned out ok. Mold spores are remarkably tough, so if you had mold in your honey then you can guarantee that you have mold spores that didn't get scraped up. I figure that my pitched yeast would overwhelm the nasties. Of course, I would choose a yeast with a high competitive factor like K1V-1116 ;)

Yea Iv never heard or seen of mold on good honey either, but this dude said that happened to his. Thats a good point! get a competitive yeast to use for extra security. I believe the 1116 and 1118 are the highest yeast lavalin offer, they can handle up to 18% in lab conditions.

shanek17
08-16-2012, 05:30 PM
Just to clarify, this threads name is a little misleading. I intended for it to be a humorous, thats why I said " for all you sanitization freaks :D" But when i posted the topic it came out as "for all you sanitization freaks :d" I dont know why the thread title didnt show the smiley face. Also the africans brewing beer isnt my video, I watched it on youtube, thought it was great and shared the video and the title for others to see.

When I began home brewing I realized sanitization is the biggest thing in this hobby so it made sense to me to see both sides of the story. So I began researching about sanitary brewing on the internet and the majority if not all of websites are about buying and using such and such chemical and the importance of using them to sanitize. This can be overwhelming for new homebrewers, it seems at every turn they are told SANTIZE SANITIZE AND SANITIZE! and this can leave them feeling like there taking care of a little sick baby. But very few people talk about whats already available to protect. instead we hear the usual endorsed chemical sanitization lecture.

I personally feel I have learnt alot about the sanitizing products that I can buy, so now I am interested in learning more about natures strength. We make nature intended beverages so why not learn more about alcohol and nature and how it works and what it offers. That way I can make informed decisions about my practice and sanitization methods. Afterall, arent we all working towards the same goal?

So, What I am trying to get across here is to embrance natures protection and our own methods of protection, and find a balance in homebrewing.

Soyala_Amaya
08-16-2012, 05:53 PM
What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

You implied that by the very link you posted. That link had no information other than "they filter it through banana leaves". I had to do my own outside reasearch to even figure out what banana beer is. In the link you see people digging into a tree outside, on the ground, ming whatever it is in a bowl, then later drinking something that we are supposed to infer is whatever was in the tree.

You then say [QUOTE=shankek17;196855] i find it cool how relaxed they are with their procedures QUOTE]

Thus implying that this is something that you want to emulate and think other people should too. Multiple people have given multiple reasons why no one on this board wants to emulate the practices of poverty stricken African tribes or ignorant medeival lords. (Such as alcohol the reason our ancestors drank alcohol WAS because it was safer to drink, but because they boiled it to get more sugars from the grain, not because of the alcohol.)

Have you possibly thought that, with almost every single elder on the board arguing with your premise and 'misunderstanding' what you were really trying to say, it is not so much that other people are having issues understanding your point but that you are failing to communicate?

Chevette Girl
08-16-2012, 08:42 PM
Okay so let me get this straight, this person took really hot boiled water, (which destroys integrity of honey) and added it to a "honey bear". Okay honey bear reminds me of those plastic bear shaped honey containers in grocery stores. So thats another big variable that I should clarify. Honey in grocery stores IS NOT the same as honey from a natural honey farm! I see alot of my freinds on facebook posting the same thing about most store bought honey being FAKE. but thats another whole story.. Ill post 2 links here that i found on google, if your interested in this.




Ooookay, you can put on the brakes there... there's a whole other thread in the Hive about "fake honey" that's pretty recent, go look it up and read it before you sound the alarm bells again. It's just been ultrafiltered so you can't tell where it came from by identifying the pollen species, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all "fake" honey.

And my case of moldy honey? It was a honey bear squeezie-bottle from the same apiary I get all my honey from because I find a squeezie-bottle a lot easier to measure out for cooking and toast than dipping a spoon or knife into a honey jar. My usual honey source, Crerar's, filter without heating the honey, so the stuff crystalizes within a few months. I had already tried gently heating it multiple times but it just crystallized within a couple of days and of course wouldn't come out of the dang bottle, defeating the whole purpose of having it in said bottle. So I boiled some water in my kettle to decrease the chances of anything icky hitching a ride, allowed it to cool in the kettle, and poured a little bit into the jar with the honey in the hopes that tipping the water balance a little might make it slightly less oversaturated and less likely to recrystallize within a day or two. Lesson learned, the next time I wanted honey, the squeezy-bottle had green fuzz growing in it.

It was my way of saying that "nature's strength" as you call it Shanek17, can be pretty delicate and easy to upset.

And it's really cool that even without good sanitation, things often turn out OK, but that's like saying, hey, I didn't boil the pond water I just drank, and it didn't cause me any problems! Doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep doing it now that we know better.

You ask,


What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

Just because Im sharing a video that shows a different perspective on sanitization doesnt mean I dont think "we dont have to be sanitary after all".

And just because Im sharing info about natures natural protection doesnt mean I am against homebrewers sanitizing.

Well, to put our confusion in perspective, this is what you said earlier on in this thread:

Theres no need to sanitize every little thing for brewing. Lets give the yeasties and alcohol some credit and let them show their strengths!

Are you starting to see how we misconstrued your point?

Msarro
08-17-2012, 08:43 AM
From this quote, I got this:

That brew is a warzone between yeasts and outsiders. Warzones are always littered with casualties. Casualties will eff up your brew.


So make brew, not war.

LOL! That's actually not too far off. You've got two factions fighting for resources, and neither side will stop until the other is completely obliterated and they get all the resources to themselves. Also, occasionally the two sides are willing to eat eachother.

Chevette Girl
08-17-2012, 02:40 PM
LOL! That's actually not too far off. You've got two factions fighting for resources, and neither side will stop until the other is completely obliterated and they get all the resources to themselves. Also, occasionally the two sides are willing to eat eachother.

Why is this now sounding like a strategic board game...?

hepcat
08-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Yeast package says to sanitize the package before opening using. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Just saying.

Curious to know what yeast you're talking about....I've used a variety of Lalvin brand and one of Safale(US-05) dry yeast and none of the packages I've used says to do that.

edit: just noticed your response on that other thread, that you were talking about Wyeast smack packs.

Medsen Fey
08-17-2012, 07:53 PM
My this thread has twisted and turned.




I found this video awhile ago and found it interesting. its good to see things from another point of view. this video features bannana brewing in africa! i find it cool how relaxed they are with their procedures and their brewing beer which is generally lower alcohol, which means it would probably spoil before a high alcohol percent wine.

BINGO!
You can easily brew with no sanitation, but you should probably plan on quaffing your final products early. These types of fermentations are often consumed while still fermenting. If you expect to brew things to age and mature with grace, your odds improve with good sanitation.




Make your stinky no dirty brews all day and drink them til your content. I'll stick with doing it right.

There is not a "right" way. Just different ways that can help you achieve different ends though some approaches definitely work better than others.


Yeast package says to sanitize the package before opening using. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Just saying.

While I am squarely in the "sanitation freak" camp, there is a such thing as overkill.



However, some times the invaders outnumber the yeast, and when that happens you'll get vinegar.

Still other times you'll get invaders and they'll ultimately get overtaken by yeast, but not before byproducts of their eating sugar get put into the brew.

So, I'll stick with sanitation. This is one time I trust the science.

Words of true wisdom from a relative newcomer!
Bless you for speaking clearly and rationally.

Wild yeast, lactic acid bacteria, acetic acid bacteria and other nasties are all around the environment and they can easily set up shop in equipment that has not been cleaned and sanitized well. Even though your active fermentation may dominate them, during the course of the fermentation, some of these buggers will have a large enough population to leave behind distinctive aroma and flavor products - they could add complexity, or could leave you with a batch of foul swill. You roll the dice and take what comes.

Yes, honey that has proper moisture content will not allow bad things to grow, and will keep indefinitely. Once diluted, it becomes easy food for spoilage organisms. Honey can also contain spores of osmophilic yeast (there's some posts on this in the Patron's section if you want to read more) that can start to ferment with a slight increase in the moisture content. So even pure honey can potentially contain problems.

I don't get obsessive about it, but since I prefer lower ABV meads, and enjoy melomels and lower-strength braggots, for MY NEEDS, good sanitation is important. I have lost beer batches in the past to wild yeast and have seen spoilage occur and I make an effort to put the odds in my favor with basic hygiene.

I won't criticize anyone who chooses to ignore sanitation, and their mead certainly won't become dangerous to drink because the pH and alcohol will prevent any human pathogens from surviving. However, I will not trouble my head to feel any sympathy for them when the inevitable loss of a batch occurs.

Good Meading!
Medsen

kudapucat
08-17-2012, 11:18 PM
And my case of moldy honey? It was a honey bear squeezie-bottle from the same apiary I get all my honey from because I find a squeezie-bottle a lot easier to measure out for cooking and toast than dipping a spoon or knife into a honey jar. My usual honey source, Crerar's, filter without heating the honey, so the stuff crystalizes within a few months. I had already tried gently heating it multiple times but it just crystallized within a couple of days and of course wouldn't come out of the dang bottle, defeating the whole purpose of having it in said bottle. So I boiled some water in my kettle to decrease the chances of anything icky hitching a ride, allowed it to cool in the kettle, and poured a little bit into the jar with the honey in the hopes that tipping the water balance a little might make it slightly less oversaturated and less likely to recrystallize within a day or two. Lesson learned, the next time I wanted honey, the squeezy-bottle had green fuzz growing in it.


I did this once too, it worked fine, until the honey fermented.
Still it was OK on toast!
No green bits.

Shortly after, I started meadhing. It soon became obvious to my analytical mind that diluting honey was a recipe for mead, or in your case: spoiled mead, and not one for liquid honey.

Kelvin
08-19-2012, 03:40 AM
While I am squarely in the "sanitation freak" camp, there is a such thing as overkill.
Medsen

And the reason for Wyeast saying to sanitize the outside of the package is because you are pouring it directly from it. Do you sanitize the container you are making your starter in? Because I know I do. It's the same difference. It's simply to insure nothing from the outside goes along with it. I still fail to see the harm in dipping your smack pack in your starsan bucket. Doesn't sound like overkill to me.

kudapucat
08-19-2012, 04:18 AM
Do you sanitize the container you are making your starter in? Because I know I do.
Hmm as a matter of fact, that's never occurred to me....

hepcat
08-20-2012, 11:28 AM
There's a beer brewer I saw on another site that tosses his dry yeast packs into his liquid sanitizer. That's overkill, imho.

Wingnut
08-20-2012, 01:15 PM
And the reason for Wyeast saying to sanitize the outside of the package is because you are pouring it directly from it. Do you sanitize the container you are making your starter in? Because I know I do. It's the same difference. It's simply to insure nothing from the outside goes along with it. I still fail to see the harm in dipping your smack pack in your starsan bucket. Doesn't sound like overkill to me.

I agree. Like I said, “Why take a chance? It isn't hard.”
And it isn't overkill. I fail to see how following a Manufactures Recommendations for optimum performance would be considered “Overkill”. I’d bet a dime to dry powder Wyeast knows a bit more that all of us amateurs….

shanek17
08-25-2012, 08:09 PM
"Ooookay, you can put on the brakes there... there's a whole other thread in the Hive about "fake honey" that's pretty recent, go look it up and read it before you sound the alarm bells again. It's just been ultrafiltered so you can't tell where it came from by identifying the pollen species, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all "fake" honey."

Iv heard that the problem is more than the honey being ultrafiltered, as you can read below this website states theres more to it than that. They mention adding corn syrup and also high heat to the commercial honey.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/storing_honey.html

It has been said that "honey is honey, as long as it has FDA approval, so you might as well buy it from a discount store." Nothing could be further from the truth. The Clinton Administration allowed the importation of Chinese "honey" as early as 1992, which sold for $0.25 per pound, wholesale. Studies in Canada found that Chinese "honey" was at least 40% corn syrup, contained carmel coloring, and Canada joined Europe in banning its importation.



"Well, to put our confusion in perspective, this is what you said earlier on in this thread:

"Originally Posted by shanek17
Theres no need to sanitize every little thing for brewing. Lets give the yeasties and alcohol some credit and let them show their strengths!"


Are you starting to see how we misconstrued your point?"

I understand that I am sharing a perspective that does not see chemical sanitizing as the absolute, and I did start off the conversation embracing the natural integrity of the home brew but it doesnt mean I am completly against sanitization.

Yes I did say “theres no need to sanitize every little thing” , and notice how I DID NOT SAY “hey we don't need to sanitize anything ever! All I was saying is we dont need to go overboard and sanitize every little thing. I even clarified in my second post and said "I do agree a beer should be clean and you should practice good sanitary beer making but theres no need to be obsessive about cleaning every little thing."

So how does that equal into Soyala saying that I said "we do not need to be sanitary after all". that would imply that no sanitzation is needed, PERIOD! my examples clearly illustrate that I believe sanitzation plays its role in hombrewing. The initial video was simply an ice breaker to get the discussion rolling, it does not represent my sanitization beliefs 100% percent.

shanek17
08-25-2012, 08:50 PM
What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?


You implied that by the very link you posted.

I realize that me posting a video showing no chemical sanitization and listing the thread as “for all you sanitization freaks :D” may leave you with the impression that I do not believe in any sanitization. But that is not the case.

Just because I shared a video of other home brewers and their practice does not mean that this is how I homebrew and it doesnt mean that I practice their techniques 100% percent. Thats like saying, there is a School teacher that does a class lecture on world wide religions and they show the class a video regarding this. Therefore the teacher is implying that she wants to copy the practices and beliefs of said religions and that the children should too....I would instead see this as the teacher is simply expanding their awareness.



You then say [quote=shankek17;196855] i find it cool how relaxed they are with their procedures QUOTE]

Thus implying that this is something that you want to emulate and think other people should too. Multiple people have given multiple reasons why no one on this board wants to emulate the practices of poverty stricken African tribes or ignorant medeival lords. (Such as**alcoholthe reason our ancestors drank**alcohol*WAS because it was safer to drink, but because they boiled it to get more sugars from the grain, not because of the**alcohol.)
Yes i did find it cool how relaxed they are with their homebrewing, that does not imply I want to copy them, it simply showing interest. And therefore lead to me creating a discussion and I was using the video as an ice breaker to get the discussion rolling, No where In this form have I said “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” In fact in my second post in this discussion i clarified and said “I do agree a beer should be clean and you should practice good sanitary beer making but theres no need to be obsessive about cleaning every little thing."

Soyala_Amaya
08-25-2012, 11:21 PM
Shanek, enough. There is NO WAY you can say that you CLEARLY anything when there is 4 pages of people trying to figure out what the hell you are trying to say. Instead of attacking people and quoting people into oblivion (yes, a bit hypocritical of me at this point, but I have recognized where things are going and am stopping now) how about just manning up and saying "Well crap, obviously I didn't say what I meant to say very well, can I have a do over?"

Again, this has been asked several times. Again, you seem to completely ignore it. ADMITTING A MISCOMMUNICATION OVER TYPE ON THE INTERNET WHERE THERE IS NO FACIAL OR BODY LANGUAGE TO READ DOES NOT MEAN YOU LOSE. We tend not to think in terms of win or lose here. We LIKE to see people grow and learn and see things mature, and we're pretty patient. (Heck, this is a hobby were the recommended time frame is 1-5 YEARS before pay off)

I'm not arguing any more points because at this point in whatever edition of Calvinball that has been going on here, obviously everyone has a different set of rulebooks. There has been a communication error from the beginning. Please reset and try again. Actually type more information and thought process into your post than your disclaimer this time? Make a whole new thread and lets let this one die.

Everyone here, people with 50 posts and people with 5,000, let this thread die because we are really too nice a community to play he said-she said over someone defending a less-well thought out initial post than could have been to the bitter end than admitting the fumble and trying again.

Please?

kudapucat
08-26-2012, 04:24 AM
Wot she sed.

shanek17
08-26-2012, 07:46 PM
Okay fair enough, this conversation has gotten confusing, as you may know the topic of sanitization is a confusing one... but i feel i learnt somethin from all of this.

Anyways, I will have to make a new topic sometime when im feelin up to it.

Penguinetti
08-27-2012, 09:08 AM
/End Thread

infoleather
08-28-2012, 02:25 AM
Like to say that the people of obsessive-compulsive disorder, suggesting that they have a problem, because they like with their production is clean?

kudapucat
08-28-2012, 04:32 AM
/End Thread

Medsen Fey
08-28-2012, 09:25 PM
/end thread
Done.

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