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CRaymond36
01-28-2013, 03:39 PM
Hello,

I have been looking into the staggered nutrient addition technique and just tried it on a melomel, but I made a few mistakes. Basically, I failed to realize that my digital scale isn't sensitive enough to weigh in single grams before I started rehydrating my yeast.

In hindsight, I did a bit more research and was unable to find a definite answer.

Instead of quoting what I have seen, i'll just ask the questions straight.

For a 1 gallon batch, what is the "Total" amount of DAP and Fermaid needed, in grams and in teaspoons?

And how can I break that down, in teaspoons, over 3-4 nutrient additions?

CRaymond36
01-29-2013, 06:13 PM
More info:

As you can see below, multiple reputable sources say different amounts. To what I can see, it looks like 1gram/0.25tsp Fermaid K and 1gram/0.25tsp DAP per 1 gallon is the common ground. So I would also guess that if you turned that into a 4 part SNA schedule, that would be 1/8tsp of each at pitch and at 24/48/72hrs.

Does the above sound correct?

-Fermaid k-
Lalvinyeast: Per 5 gal - 5 grams
Newbee Guide: Per 1 gal - 1 gram/0.25tsp
KS Book: Per 1 gal - 1 gram
KS Post: Per 5 gal - 13 grams/3.25tsp (3g/0.75tsp at pitch,1g/0.25tsp every 12hr for 5 days or 1/2 sugar depletion)
MMotY: Per 5 gal - 4grams/1tsp (25% of total over 4 additions)

-DAP-
Newbee Guide: Per 1 gal - 0.25 tsp
KS Book: Per 1 gal - 1 tsp
KS Post: Per 5 gal - 14 grams/3.50tsp (4g/1tsp at pitch,1g/0.25tsp every 12hr for 5 days or 1/2 sugar depletion)
MMotY: Per 5 gal - 8grams/2tsp (25% of total over 4 additions)

-Sources-
Lalvinyeast:
www.lalvinyeast.com/images/library/Fermaid_K.pdf
Newbee Guide:
http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=333&Itemid=14
KS Book:
"The Complete Meadmaker" by Ken Schramm
KS Post (Optimizing Honey Fermentation by Ken Schramm):
http://www.gotmead.com/forum/blog.php?b=42
MMotY (Meadmaker of the Year Panel, 2010 Nat. Homebrewers Conf.):
http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Mead_Maker_of_the_Year_Panel.pdf

Medsen Fey
01-29-2013, 07:28 PM
A tsp of DAP usually weighs closer to 5g
A tsp of Fermaid K weighs 4g

1g/gal of DAP provides 55 ppm YAN
1g/gal of Fermaid K provides 26 ppm YAN

A 70:30 Fermaid K to DAP ratio is recommended by Lallemand
At 1g/gal this ratio gives 35 ppm YAN


How much YAN you need depends on the yeast strain and the starting gravity. For a regular strength mead with a yeast that isn't a nutrient hog I aim for at least 200 ppm YAN (2g DAP and 4g Fermaid K is about there)

I hope that helps

Addendum- I ignore TTB restrictions on the amount of Fermaid K that can be added because I am not a commercial operation, and I don't care if I have excessive amount of thiamine or other vitamins in my mead. If I get a few extra B vitamins it might do me some good.:p

CRaymond36
01-29-2013, 09:23 PM
1g/gal of DAP provides 55 ppm YAN
1g/gal of Fermaid K provides 26 ppm YAN

A 70:30 Fermaid K to DAP ratio is recommended by Lallemand


Thank you for your reply, that does indeed help alot.

I was wondering, do you have any sources that quote the YAN PPM and ratio that you stated above?

No offense meant, i'm just trying to verify.

Looking around, I am reading the following about the nitrogen content:

DAP: 21% nitrogen by weight, 1g= +210 YAN ppm p/L, which translates to 1g= +55.47 YAN ppm p/gal

Fermaid K: 13% nitrogen by weight, 1g= +130 YAN ppm p/L, which translates to 1g= +34.34 YAN ppm p/gal

And I couldn't find anything that says what ratio is recommended to use, other than lallemand recommending 5 grams per 20 liters "For normal winemaking applications".

brian92fs
01-29-2013, 09:49 PM
Fermaid K: 13% nitrogen by weight, 1g= +130 YAN ppm p/L, which translates to 1g= +34.34 YAN ppm p/gal


I've seen two amounts referenced for fermaid-k... 10% or 13% nitrogen. Not sure what the "official" number is.

PitBull
01-29-2013, 10:44 PM
Weights are always more accurate than dry measure.

I'd recommend either this 500 gram capacity scale (http://www.amazon.com/Weigh-MS-500-BLK-Digital-Pocket-Scale/dp/B000P1NYE8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359513132&sr=8-1&keywords=m-500+scale) or this 600 gram capcaity scale (http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Scales--MS-600-Digital/dp/B004VLTE1A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359513149&sr=8-2&keywords=ms-600+scale). They are $6.10 and $6.25 respectively with free shipping and no minimum order. I have both and they test our very accurately with laboratory weights. They are accurate to 0.1 gram.

If you really want to splurge, you can get this 500 gram calibration weight (http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Scales-500WGT-Calibration/dp/B0010TGEQE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359513171&sr=8-1&keywords=500+gr+calibration+weight) ($9.46 with free shipping) which is used to recalibrate the scales. I have this too but the scales have stayed in calibration.

Bob1016
01-29-2013, 10:53 PM
This (http://www.bcawa.ca/newsletter/vol2no2.pdf) has a seriously good article on pg3 (seriously good, not just good:))
Fermaid K has always annoyed me with that 10% vs 13% issue. I use the latter for YAN calculations because I figure it's not all DAP, and organic nitrogen is better for yeast than DAP so 3% extra in calculations isn't too bad.

CRaymond36
01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
Pitbull, Bob, thanks for the links. Extremely helpful!

Medsen Fey
01-30-2013, 09:49 PM
HERE (http://www.math.fsu.edu/~gmizell/mead/LallemandNutrientAdditions.pdf) is a document from Lallemand that spells out the YAN in Fermaid K which is essentially 10%. See the chart below extracted from the document.

The 70:30 Fermaid K ratio come from something I read on their site 6-7 years ago. I don't see it posted now, but if I find a copy I'll post it up.

Medsen Fey
01-30-2013, 10:44 PM
By the way, I noticed they have another product now called Fermaid A. It containes a higher amount of amino nitrogen and has closer to 12% nitrogen. If anyone knows a retailer carrying this product please let us know.

Bob1016
01-31-2013, 01:17 AM
Medsen, it seems that fermaid a is specifically marketed for Australia/new Zealand. I see Scott labs has it if you want 10kg (that's a little more than I can handle;)).
BTW, what's your go-to SNA components for 250ppm YAN? I know you like to favor organic N but would like to know how, lots of yeast hulls?

Marc F.
01-31-2013, 04:33 PM
This (http://www.bcawa.ca/newsletter/vol2no2.pdf) has a seriously good article on pg3 (seriously good, not just good:))

Not just page 3. Thank you so much for that link. (Saved and on desktop;D).

CRaymond36
01-31-2013, 04:46 PM
Thanks to everyone for supplying sources and information!

I'm currently using all these and a few other sources to do some number crunching in excel, i'll post my findings in a few.

CRaymond36
01-31-2013, 06:41 PM
Thanks to Pitbull's reply i'll have a proper scale as soon as it comes in the mail, so i'll be weighing everything out by grams from here on. But since I already started all this mess, thought I might as well finish it. Let me know what you guys think, completely open to suggestions/criticism/comments.

Results from number crunching...

Fermaid k: 25g/hL=25 n/ppm, 1g/gal=23.66 n/ppm
DAP: 25g/hL=50 n/ppm, 1g/gal=47.33 n/ppm

I still dont know the exact weights per tsp. 1tsp fermaid k being 4 grams is what just about every source says. DAP however, some say 3.9, 3.5, 4.5, 5, all over the place. So for sake of argument, i'll be using 1tsp fermaid k=4g and 1tsp dap=4g. When the scale comes in, i'll take more accurate weights, update my spreadsheet, and post the new results.

Using the above:

-Fermaid k-
1/4 tsp(1g)= 23.66 YAN ppm/gal
1/8 tsp(0.5g)= 11.83 YAN ppm/gal

-DAP-
1 tsp(4g)= 189.27 YAN ppm/gal
1/2 tsp(2g)= 94.64 YAN ppm/gal
1/4 tsp(1g)= 47.32 YAN ppm/gal
1/8 tsp(0.5g)= 23.66 YAN ppm/gal

-----

-Example Nutrient Additions-

For one gallon must, using the recommended nitrogen per brix/sg tables(can be found in the links above)..

Brix 25/SG 1.106 Target YAN: 300 ppm

Fermaid k: 1/4tsp(1g)= 23.66 n/ppm
YAN needed after Fermaid k: 276.34 n/ppm

276.34 n/ppm= 5.84g DAP
1.5 tsp DAP= 6g (283.90 n/ppm)

Totals:
1tsp Fermaid k (1g, 23.66 n/ppm)
1.5tsp DAP (6g, 283.90 n/ppm)
Total YAN= 307.56 ppm

-4 dosage SNA-
After lag: 1/4tsp + 1/8tsp DAP and 1/8tsp Fermaid K (82.81 n/ppm)
24 hours: 1/4tsp + 1/8tsp DAP (70.98 n/ppm)
48 hours: 1/4tsp + 1/8tsp DAP and 1/8tsp Fermaid K (82.81 n/ppm)
72 hours: 1/4tsp + 1/8tsp DAP (70.98 n/ppm)

-2 dosage SNA-
After lag: 3/4tsp DAP + 1/8tsp Fermaid k (153.78 n/ppm)
1/3 sugar break: 3/4tsp DAP + 1/8tsp Fermaid k (153.78 n/ppm)

Bob1016
01-31-2013, 06:56 PM
FAN - free amino nitrogen (organic sources of nitrogen (organic meaning contains carbon, not USDA BS)); DAP has no FAN (Fermaid K has some but not much) but it contributes YAN - yeast assimilable nitrogen (can be organic or inorganic, like salts). Just some clarification on terms.
Also, most people use a lot more Fermaid K, more Fermaid less DAP. I wouldn't be too concerned with the thiamine limit unless brewing commercially (it's just a number someone picked saying don't exceed this or Orion might line up with Saturn, and that's not good:p).
Hope this helps. :)

CRaymond36
01-31-2013, 07:13 PM
-fixed (thnx bob)

Medsen Fey
01-31-2013, 08:43 PM
Results from number crunching...

Fermaid k: 25g/hL=25 n/ppm, 1g/gal=23.66 n/ppm
DAP: 25g/hL=50 n/ppm, 1g/gal=47.33 n/ppm



When you did the calculation in the prior posts, you came up with 1g/gal DAP being 55.47 ppm nitrogen which is correct.

For Fermaid K at 10% the number is 26 ppm.

In the grand scheme the difference won't matter to the yeast, but it may prevent future mead-crafters from becoming confused.

CRaymond36
02-01-2013, 12:59 PM
When you did the calculation in the prior posts, you came up with 1g/gal DAP being 55.47 ppm nitrogen which is correct.

For Fermaid K at 10% the number is 26 ppm.

In the prior post, I was using the percentages as the base of the equations. 21% by weight for DAP and 13%/10% for Fermaid. Those percentages I obtained from 3rd party sources, not too reputable but still knowledgeable. When you posted the pdf from lallemand, I switched to the data there because they are the yeast manufacturer/cultivator, "horses mouth" type scenario, lol.

That screenshot you posted is the exact section that I pulled the data from, which states:

Fermaid: 25 g/hL = 25 mgN/L
DAP: 25g/hL = 50 mgN/L

mgN/L is another way to say PPM.
1 hL = 26.4172052 Gallons (link (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=hectoliter+to+gallon&oq=hectoliter+to+gallon&gs_l=hp.3..0l2j0i30.86.677.1.819.6.5.0.1.1.0.83.30 7.5.5.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.2.hp.ZixCZVpCU0w&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41867550,d.dmQ&fp=bc25cb2059027dd4&biw=1009&bih=620))

So that translates to:
Fermaid: 25 g/26.4172052 Gal = 25 N/ppm
DAP: 25 g/26.4172052 Gal = 50 N/ppm

Reducing that to 1 gallon (25/26.4172052=0.946353):
Fermaid: 0.946353 g/Gal = 25 N/ppm
DAP: 0.946353 g/Gal = 50 N/ppm

And lastly, converting that to 1g/gal (N/ppm*0.946353):
Fermaid: 1 g/Gal = 23.65882 N/ppm
DAP: 1 g/Ga = 47.31765 N/ppm

If any of my calculations are incorrect here, please let me know. As you can probably tell, the engineer in me is a bit OCD when it comes to math. :glasses3:

Medsen Fey
02-01-2013, 02:10 PM
Reducing that to 1 gallon (25/26.4172052=0.946353):
Fermaid: 0.946353 g/Gal = 25 N/ppm
DAP: 0.946353 g/Gal = 50 N/ppm

And lastly, converting that to 1g/gal (N/ppm*0.946353):
Fermaid: 1 g/Gal = 23.65882 N/ppm
DAP: 1 g/Ga = 47.31765 N/ppm

If any of my calculations are incorrect here, please let me know. As you can probably tell, the engineer in me is a bit OCD when it comes to math. :glasses3:

OK.
If 0.946353 g/Gal = 25 N/ppm, then increasing the amount to 1g/Gal will give an amount larger than 25. If you take:
25/0.946353 = 26.4 ppm

The DAP number works similarly, though the chart I copied says:
DAP 25g/hl = 50 ppm nitrogen

This number is rounded to keep it simple. From the calculations you did previously, since DAP is 21% nitrogen, then actually:
DAP 25g/hl = 52.5 ppm nitrogen

If you plug that into your calculation and then divide by 0.946353 you're there.

CRaymond36
02-01-2013, 05:04 PM
Ah, yes, you're right, thanks for that catch. Can't believe I did that. Always the small things that get overlooked, lol. After those corrections I get:

Fermaid k: 1 g/gal = 26.42 N/ppm
DAP: 1 /gal = 52.83 N/ppm

And the tsp values(still assuming 1tsp=4g):

Fermaid k(N/ppm p/gal):
1 tsp: 105.67
1/2 tsp: 52.83
1/4 tsp: 26.42
1/8 tsp: 13.21

DAP (N/ppm p/gal):
1 tsp: 211.34
1/2 tsp: 105.67
1/4 tsp: 52.83
1/8 tsp: 26.42

Medsen Fey
02-01-2013, 06:09 PM
DAP: 1 /gal = 52.83 N/ppm


You still have to take make the final division that gets you to 55.47. That is the correct number. DAP is 21% nitrogen. If you dose at 1g/L you get 210 mg N per liter (210 ppm). If you then put that same gram in 1 gallon you get:
210 ppm N 3.785 liters = 55.48 ppm

So your first calculation was correct.




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CRaymond36
02-01-2013, 08:54 PM
DAP is 21% nitrogen.


In the prior post, I was using the percentages as the base of the equations. 21% by weight for DAP and 13%/10% for Fermaid. Those percentages I obtained from 3rd party sources, not too reputable but still knowledgeable. When you posted the pdf from lallemand, I switched to the data there because they are the yeast manufacturer/cultivator, "horses mouth" type scenario, lol.

That screenshot you posted is the exact section that I pulled the data from, which states:

Fermaid: 25 g/hL = 25 mgN/L
DAP: 25g/hL = 50 mgN/L

The screenshot quoted above of the PDF from Lallemand:
http://www.gotmead.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=860&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1359596954 (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=860&d=1359596954)

If using those percentages as the base facts, I agree, your math is sound and end up with 55.48.

But if you use the data provided by Lallemand as the base, percentages dont come into play, just raw conversions from 25g/hL, to 25g/26.41gal, then 0.946g/gal, then finally 1g/gal.

Just for the sake of argument, if you wanted to convert the quoted 25g/hL=50 mgN/L data to percentages:

Converting hL to L, you get 25g/L=5000 mgN/L
Then 25g to 1g, you get 1g/L=200 mgN/L
200 mgN/L is 200 ppm, which is 20%.

So one of our sources has a 1% margin of error, not too shabby in my opinion, lol. If 20% is the error, you'll end up with 1% more than the ppm target; and if 21% is the error, you'll end up with 1% less than the target. :)

Medsen Fey
02-01-2013, 11:35 PM
If you look up the molecular formula for diammonium phosphate, you'll find that nitrogen makes up 21% of the weight.

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CRaymond36
02-02-2013, 04:52 PM
If you look up the molecular formula for diammonium phosphate, you'll find that nitrogen makes up 21% of the weight.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Ok, I didn't think it would be necessary to post those sources, but here are a few that I was talking about.

Below, are sources from some of the chemical manufacturers themselves. DAP, aka Diamonnium phosphate and Diammonium Hydrogen Phosphate, comes in 2 forms based on purity to what I have seen. Food/Technical grade are the purest, both 99%. Agricultural grade is much lower in purity, and not what is used as fermentation supplements. So I specifically looked for sources that stated Food or Technical grade to ensure that the product was not Agricultural grade.

As you can see, depending on the manufacturer, each source has tested the contents of their product, and has extremely wide ranges of Nitrogen content. So depending on which specific manufacturer your DAP ultimately comes from, the Nitrogen content can span anywhere from 12% to over 21%.

Sources:

http://www.lookchem.com/cas-778/7783-28-0.html
Quotes(multiple): 20.8% min., 18% min., ≥ 20.8%, 16-18%, 18%, 21% min., >12%, 17% min., 20.50% min., ≥ 14.0%

http://www.phosphate-supplier.com/ammonium-phosphates/dap-food-grade-diammonium-phosphate/
Quotes: =< 20.8%

http://www.saininggroup.com/productsshow_en.aspx?id=320
Quotes: ≥ 20.8%

We brew alcohol, using yeast. Lallemand researches, tests, and manufactures yeast for alcohol brewing. Most of us dont have access to chem labs to run dozens of tests on chemicals and compounds in order to come up with their "Approximate YAN Contributions" for brewing alcohol. But if anyone does, its companies like Lallemand, and they happen to have done said testing and provided it to the public. This is why I chose to go with their data.

Stating that someone is wrong by 1% when the initial data was already guaranteed to have a margin of error from the start, is frivolous. Under the circumstances, we are both correct.

My goal was to learn more about the specifics behind yeast nutrition and health, and this whole exercise has given me a whole treasure trove of knowledge. I wouldn't have been able to do so without you pointing me in the right direction, and I thank you for it. :)

Medsen Fey
02-02-2013, 06:27 PM
As you can see, depending on the manufacturer, each source has tested the contents of their product, and has extremely wide ranges of Nitrogen content. So depending on which specific manufacturer your DAP ultimately comes from, the Nitrogen content can span anywhere from 12% to over 21%.



Excellent point. The purity of the DAP we get definitely affects the YAN content (not something I had considered before). Oh well..., now my confidence in my numbers is shaken, but that could certainly explain why some batches I thought I fed appropriately still got stinky. I reckon I should get used to aiming a little higher to be on the safe side. Thanks for the outstanding contribution. :)

Bob1016
02-02-2013, 07:25 PM
Great research! Now I trust number even less!:)