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Anders Olsen
08-20-2013, 02:35 PM
I've was looking to get some nutrients so I can make a unflavored traditional mead(water, honey, nutrient).

I was thinking about getting DAP, FERMAX ,fermaid k, GO-FERM in bulk.
So my questions was :
Do DAP, FERMAX ,fermaid k, GO-FERM have some sort of expiration date?
Do I need all of them or are they just alternative to each other?

Cheers Anders

loveofrose
08-20-2013, 04:13 PM
GoFerm is used specifically to rehydrate dry yeast.

Fermaid K and Fermax are similar, but Fermaid K is generally preferred by mead makers due to it's mead friendly nutrient composition.

DAP is diammonium phosphate. It is a free nitrogen source for nitrogen deficient honey must.

As long as these nutrients are desiccated (dry), they are nearly eternal.

Most of us follow the following protocol or something similar:
1. Rehydrate yeast in 1/2 cup of water and GoFerm according to lallemand's directions.
2. Add 1:2 ratio of DAP:Fermaid K at must creation, 3, & 6 days.
>Some folks prefer after lag phase and 2/3 sugar break.
>Amounts vary depending on gravity. More honey needs more nutrients.

You may also want to consider potassium carbonate. It is used as a potassium source as well as a buffer to avoid massive pH swings that mead is famous for.
I generally add 0.75-1.5 tsp in a 5 gallon batch depending on how tart the honey is.

UKTony
08-20-2013, 04:15 PM
The answers to your questions are as follows....

Sometimes and Sometimes.

Now for some clarification.

GoFerm is used specifically for yeast rehydration or Yeast Starters. It's not a generic "feed"

Many people here use FermaidK and DAP together for their regimen, you can find dozens of discussions on the site about quantities and timings, all up front, or staggered etc. They most of them have expiration dates, and to be honest, in this game, you want all of your ingredients to be fresh and yummy, at the time of use.... I just add my nutrients to my purchase when I need to top them up, whenever I'm at my LHBS or ordering online.

DAP is Diammonium Phosphate, in organic

FermaidK is a nutrient source with vitamins and other yummy stuff for the yeasties, which also contains some DAP.

There's also FermaidO, which is an organic source of nitrogen, that has no DAP, and doesn't yield as much nitrogen as the other sources, which is what I tried to use almost exclusively on my last batch. The theory is, that although you need more of it, so it's more expensive than using the inorganic sources, but unlike DAP, using too much should not impart "off flavours" into the must.

Hope this helps... incidentally, you'll find that nutrients are a constant source of debate here.


I've was looking to get some nutrients so I can make a unflavored traditional mead(water, honey, nutrient).

I was thinking about getting DAP, FERMAX ,fermaid k, GO-FERM in bulk.
So my questions was :
Do DAP, FERMAX ,fermaid k, GO-FERM have some sort of expiration date?
Do I need all of them or are they just alternative to each other?

Cheers Anders

Chevette Girl
08-21-2013, 12:02 AM
Most of us follow the following protocol or something similar:
1. Rehydrate yeast in 1/2 cup of water and GoFerm according to lallemand's directions.
2. Add 1:2 ratio of DAP:Fermaid K at must creation, 3, & 6 days.
>Some folks prefer after lag phase and 2/3 sugar break.
>Amounts vary depending on gravity. More honey needs more nutrients.


Everything else loveofrose said is good info but your yeast can't really use DAP past the point where they've eaten 1/3 of the available sugars, so you really want to time any staggered nutrient additions by hydrometer readings, not by days. And some of use a 1:2 ratio, some a 1:1 ratio and some a 2:1 ratio. Hot topic for discussion ;D

Adding DAP to your rehydration water is toxic to the yeast, and some people withhold it until after lag phase just to make sure, but adding it at pitch is better than not adding it at all or adding it too late..

So DAP is a good thing to have, use it when recipes call for "yeast nutrients", Go-Ferm probably is too for when you rehydrate yeast (I haven't started using it yet because none of my local places carry it), and pick one of fermaid or fermax, they're both "yeast energizer" contining small amounts of DAP and a bunch of vitamins and trace elements the yeast will need for healthy development (didn't use energizers myself for the first 5 years or so).

The directions on each of these is for grape must, and a honey must has a lot less in it for yeast, so it's generally safe to use at least 1.5 times the manufacturer's recommended amounts of DAP and energizer when you're making meads.

loveofrose
08-21-2013, 09:16 AM
Ha. Damn typos. I meant 1/3 sugar break. Not 2/3. Listen to Chevette Girl!

Anders Olsen
08-21-2013, 12:33 PM
Thanks to all contributions.:)

FermaidO is that something new the last years? Any suppliers of it online that ships world wide?

fatbloke
08-21-2013, 01:26 PM
Thanks to all contributions.:)

FermaidO is that something new the last years? Any suppliers of it online that ships world wide?
If you find some then PM me the link...

There's even rarer versions of the Fermaid range. I understand there's a different one for the Australasia area and even a Kosher version.

Im sure you can guess where you might have to source those from.....

If you look at my blog (in sig line) I posted a link to an article from Zymurgy. It explains a bit more about nutrients and what exactly the yeasts need. Sure some of its a bit "sciencey" but it says about nitrogen needs etc, which is helpful as you can then be a bit more precise about nitrogen sources and amounts.

E.g. Fermaidk provides 110 ppm per gramme per litre, whereas FermaidO provides 40 ppm per gm/ltr. So 1 gramme of the K gives nearly 3 times the nitrogen.

Whereas, pure DAP gives 200 ppm per g/ltr but of course, it doesn't have all the micro nutrients, hence using something like using 1 gramme of Fermk and half gramme of DAP for 1 litre of fermenting must should be fine for up to about 12 to 14 % ABV, or double that for 18% ABV. Then you can scale that up according to the batch size.

So yes it can get a little complicated but generally planning a bit and then posting any question should do the trick......

The other answers above are good. Some are reasonably new at meads and they are doing some good things.

The only real advice is to be patient. Meads don't like to be rushed......

Oh, and welcome to the forums......

UKTony
08-21-2013, 01:29 PM
FB ... PM me your address and I'll get some O in the mail to you matey!

fatbloke
08-21-2013, 02:08 PM
FB ... PM me your address and I'll get some O in the mail to you matey!
Oh yes, and the Moniack :D

Sorry, read you other PM and forgot to reply. Haven't managed to get home this week yet.......currently stuck parked up at Greenford (just west of Hanger Lane so I can get into the palletways hub at 3AM......nice

UKTony
08-21-2013, 02:16 PM
I know it well. I used to live on Ealing Common when I was working at the beeb. I used to get out Greenford way far more than is healthy for anyone, but the curries in Southall can't be beat!

PM the details as you can and ill get it sorted.

Tony.

fatbloke
08-21-2013, 02:39 PM
I know it well. I used to live on Ealing Common when I was working at the beeb. I used to get out Greenford way far more than is healthy for anyone, but the curries in Southall can't be beat!

PM the details as you can and ill get it sorted.

Tony.
Southall ? Not in a 60ft artic at any time of day or night......

PM on completion of sending this......

Bee Serious
08-21-2013, 09:57 PM
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Mead-The-Jamil-Show-12-01-08

Just thought I would chime in - Here is a webisode where Jamil Zainasheff has this obscure mazer named Ken Schramm talk about how he makes mead. If you download the mp3, Ken talks about how he uses Go-Ferm, Fermaid K, and DAP when he starts a mead. (PROTIP: You can start listening at 49:00!)

It is comforting to know that Ken is pretty cavalier with his practices. Honey, water, and yeast want to become mead!

Jim H
08-21-2013, 11:54 PM
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Mead-The-Jamil-Show-12-01-08

Just thought I would chime in - Here is a webisode where Jamil Zainasheff has this obscure mazer named Ken Schramm talk about how he makes mead....

Thanks for the link! Entertaining and helpful.

Bee Serious
08-22-2013, 01:50 PM
Thanks for the link! Entertaining and helpful.

No problem! The Brewing Network has moments of intense information overload (punctuating large swaths of the commentary of dudes drinking in a recording studio). It is mostly beer-related, but you can find some really good mead shows on there.

mannye
08-22-2013, 10:08 PM
I know it well. I used to live on Ealing Common when I was working at the beeb. I used to get out Greenford way far more than is healthy for anyone, but the curries in Southall can't be beat!

PM the details as you can and ill get it sorted.

Tony.

GET OUT! You worked at the BEEB? Me too! I was creative director for Worldwide (LATAM) I worked with David Weiland, Bun Scrase and Garry Sinclair.

UKTony
08-22-2013, 10:13 PM
GET OUT! You worked at the BEEB? Me too! I was creative director for Worldwide (LATAM) I worked with David Weiland, Bun Scrase and Garry Sinclair.

Ahhh the money earning part!! I used to work for the money spending part (News and Current Affairs), out of the newsroom on Wood Lane.

mannye
08-22-2013, 11:37 PM
Yes it is unfortunate they sold Television Centre to covert to flats. Since the fee was cut it seems the Beeb just isn't the same.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind living in the BBC pub that was on the third floor. I joined the club while visiting and had a few pints right before they closed the building and moved TV out.

Best TV in the world to work for!