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McJeff
09-07-2013, 02:52 PM
When do you use this stuff, initial fermentation, seconday? how much do you use say per gallon of mead?

fatbloke
09-07-2013, 03:11 PM
Either.....

Normally, if you can, its best to use it with the fruit before fermentation. Once theres some alcohol involved, then its doubled, so depending on the instructions but the stuff I get is 1 tsp per gallon or two tsp per gallon if fermented.

Its also helpful to use it in advance as it helps with colour and flavour extraction too......

cosmogirl
09-07-2013, 04:15 PM
I have never heard of pectic acid used in brewing. What exactly is it's function?

McJeff
09-07-2013, 04:58 PM
Add to must to break down pulp and aid in the extraction of tannin. Can also abate pectin haze in wines and cider.
.

fatbloke
09-07-2013, 08:52 PM
I have never heard of pectic acid used in brewing. What exactly is it's function?
Pectic enzyme, not acid.

And as McJ points out (in reverse), it's primary purpose is to metabolise any pectins that might come from any fruit ingredient used.

It's also used as it can help with flavour and colour extraction.

It's effect is reduced by the presence of alcohol, which is why it's recommended to be used on the fruit before fermentation, but it still works on the fruit/juice etc, after the fermentation but the dose is doubled.

McJeff
09-07-2013, 09:20 PM
Yeah I've never used it before, didn't care what the mead looked like. But I'm curious now. Have a 2g pineapple/mango 3 weeks in I'm goin to try it on when I rack it.

Chevette Girl
09-08-2013, 12:56 AM
I use it for any wine or mead I make that contains fruit (except JAO's, they generally don't have enough fruit for it to matte). 1/2 tsp per gallon 24 hours before I pitch, it can help release the juices from mashed fruit so you have a more accurate starting SG by the time you pitch. The only time I used it after fermentation was for a JAO variation where I added a lot more citrus fruit, and it wouldn't clear no matter what I added so I finally added some pectinase and it cleared within a week or two.

capoeirista13
09-09-2013, 10:48 AM
When do you use this stuff, initial fermentation, seconday? how much do you use say per gallon of mead?

I have a pectic enzyme experiment in the patrons section I believe, but I'm not a patron anymore so I can't access it to give you any info (or even the thread title) from it. Do a search and see if you can find it.

Basically the enzyme has a reduced effect in the presence of alcohol and it takes far longer to achieve the same clarity. Also putting in the enzyme in pre-fermentation, during fermentation, and post-fermentation alter the flavor differently - it's not just a clarity thing.

McJeff
09-09-2013, 11:00 AM
I have a pectic enzyme experiment in the patrons section I believe, but I'm not a patron anymore so I can't access it to give you any info (or even the thread title) from it. Do a search and see if you can find it.

Basically the enzyme has a reduced effect in the presence of alcohol and it takes far longer to achieve the same clarity. Also putting in the enzyme in pre-fermentation, during fermentation, and post-fermentation alter the flavor differently - it's not just a clarity thing.

ill look it up ty

McJeff
09-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Will I ruin a flavor or add a bad taste to a mead that had already fermented?

McJeff
09-09-2013, 03:36 PM
also is there a diff way to clear fruit pectin from a mead that has already fermented?

Chevette Girl
09-09-2013, 07:47 PM
Take a taste of the pectinase... I don't find it tastes like much, and there's nothing I can pick out in any of my wines or mels that screams out "This is what pectinase tastes like!", even the one where I did have to add some after fermentation so I added a double dose. I'm really not sure if there's any other way to remove it, other than encouraging it to clump and settle out but I'm pretty sure that requires heating. And probably a fining agent.

capoeirista13
09-10-2013, 01:18 PM
Will I ruin a flavor or add a bad taste to a mead that had already fermented?

In my experience (noted in the thread I mentioned earlier) there is a flavor change when adding pectinase but it isn't because there's any pectinase left in the solution or anything, it is because it drops the pectin out of the solution. It will not ruin the flavor, or add any new (or bad) flavors. It will probably just taste a bit different, perhaps 'thinner.'


also is there a diff way to clear fruit pectin from a mead that has already fermented?

I am not sure, but I would look into what the different clarifying agents bind to, and see if any of them bind to pectin. I really don't think you have anything to worry about with adding the pectinase though.

McJeff
09-10-2013, 04:46 PM
I ordered some, seems pointless to not use the stuff when it so easy and helps so much.

Slowly adding to my brewing skills and tricks. Ty guys

fatbloke
09-10-2013, 05:20 PM
Now see I'm gonna disagree with capoeirista13 on that. The pectin doesn't seem to taste of anything, like most gelling agents.

The pectolase metabolises it so it can't clump together creating the cloudiness. Plus helping with the extraction of colour/flavour presumably, is because of what it does when its still an integral part of the fruit (don't quote me on that, its just me presuming out loud).

So apart from traditionals and JAO I put it in all fruit batches, usually before any fermentation and when ive sulphited the fruit initially.....

There doesn't, IMO, appear to be a downside to using it, while there is if you dont.....

capoeirista13
09-11-2013, 11:08 AM
Now see I'm gonna disagree with capoeirista13 on that. The pectin doesn't seem to taste of anything, like most gelling agents.


Make two identical batches, use enzyme on one and not on the other. Tell me if you find a flavor difference. I did that and I found a flavor difference.

McJeff
09-17-2013, 06:01 AM
Does pectin enzyme inhibite fermentation? I've used it twice in the last week and fermentation has taken significantly longer to start. When it has started, its noticably less vigerous with less head foam.

Chevette Girl
09-17-2013, 11:08 PM
Does pectin enzyme inhibite fermentation? I've used it twice in the last week and fermentation has taken significantly longer to start. When it has started, its noticably less vigerous with less head foam.

Not that I'm aware of... Might just have been those batches? Definitely would be an interesting thing to note if you do manage a side-by-side comparison.

McJeff
09-18-2013, 08:54 AM
They finally started yup, still not as vigerous but enough to make me happy.

capoeirista13
09-18-2013, 01:35 PM
Does pectin enzyme inhibite fermentation? I've used it twice in the last week and fermentation has taken significantly longer to start. When it has started, its noticably less vigerous with less head foam.

I did not notice it inhibiting fermentation in my experiment.

MikeTheElder
09-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Since I'm new to Meads/Cysers/Melomels, I can't comment on pectinase use in those but in my wines, I add some before pitching my yeast because I use whole crushed fruit(helps extract juice/color/flavor) then add some during fining if needed.

Currently I'm making 2 batches of apple cider Cyser and didn't add any before fermentation but I will add some after fermentation for fining.

I agree it does make the finished product seem a bit "thinner" but I haven't noticed any flavor difference or any difference in fermentation vigor.

Mikeymu
09-22-2013, 03:36 AM
Either.....

Normally, if you can, its best to use it with the fruit before fermentation. Once theres some alcohol involved, then its doubled, so depending on the instructions but the stuff I get is 1 tsp per gallon or two tsp per gallon if fermented.

Its also helpful to use it in advance as it helps with colour and flavour extraction too......

So if you were brewing a melomel and adding the fruit in secondary, when would you add the pectic enzyme?

McJeff
09-22-2013, 05:24 AM
So if you were brewing a melomel and adding the fruit in secondary, when would you add the pectic enzyme?

Add it with the fruit.

ShaunG
11-30-2013, 09:09 AM
I've been reading McJ's thread and have a question:

I added 3lbs only of blueberries to my primary of 5 gallons. I plan on putting another 12lbs in the secondary. Assuming my fermenter is sanitized, and I flood it with Co2 before hand, place the berries in the bottom with the enzyme and crush the fruit like that, letting it sit overnight and racking onto it in the morning-

Thoughts?

I'm curious to know how long and to what extent it takes for the enzyme to break down the pectin chains.

Chevette Girl
11-30-2013, 11:33 AM
What I've read indicates it's about 24 hours for pectinase to do its thing. However, it'll continue to do its thing even with some alcohol or sulphites in solution, it takes a lot of either to deactivate pectinase. Also, pectinase is an enzyme, not a reactant, so it doesn't get used up, which means that the pectinase from this treatment will also eventually take care of any pectin from the original 3 lb too if you didn't use it then.

I've also read that blueberries are very low in pectin :)

ShaunG
11-30-2013, 11:48 AM
Nice. VERY nice 'Vett (I have a friend in NYC named Ann Evette- we call her 'Vett too)

First foray into mead. I ordered 5# for an experimental batch, and got 5gallons.

>SIGH<

what're ya gonna do, right? So 5g of Blueberry, 5g of Peach and 1g each of some using experimental sugars, one of which will be agave nectar. Mmmmm.....

Stasis
01-10-2014, 06:07 AM
In my experience (noted in the thread I mentioned earlier) there is a flavor change when adding pectinase but it isn't because there's any pectinase left in the solution or anything, it is because it drops the pectin out of the solution. It will not ruin the flavor, or add any new (or bad) flavors. It will probably just taste a bit different, perhaps 'thinner.'


I am not bothered at all with my mead having a haze. Since the only difference in taste is that perhaps it would taste 'thinner' (which I do not think will necessarily mean I would find it more enjoyable) I guess I can skip the use of pectic enzyme?

In other words: Seems that if I am unaffected by aesthetics I can (mostly) ignore the use of pectic enzyme.

McJeff
01-10-2014, 08:56 AM
There is a bit of pride when you hand someone a glass and they say "look at they beautiful color.

joemirando
01-11-2014, 12:58 PM
There is a bit of pride when you hand someone a glass and they say "look at the beautiful color."

2X on that. One of the most enjoyable moments for me is always watching their eyes when the look at the bottle and say, "Ooooh, look at how it glows!" And it does, too. I attribute it to the index of refraction, but who knows (and who cares) what actually causes some meads to look like they're illuminated from within. I've found that my JAOs seem to exhibit this even more than others. Its awesome. Do I consider a mead "ruined" because it hasn't cleared? No way. More for me, suckers! <grin>

I HAVE had some that just wouldn't clear, no matter what, and yeah, they taste fine for the most part. Cysers especially seem to give me a hard time with clearing.

See ya,
Joe

McJeff
01-11-2014, 01:05 PM
and the pectic enzyme isnt really a hard step either. throw it in.