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Mirakk
10-08-2013, 03:39 PM
I'm interested in why a batch of JOAM can be good to go in 3 months, while making a comparable orange spiced melomel would take so much longer than that to mature. Is it simply the lower attenuation of the bread yeast that accomplishes this?

This is confusing, because I see some no-age recipies that use something like K1V with an ABV of 18%. That seems to contradict my theory. Basically I can't make heads or tails of what makes for a faster maturing batch of mead.

Marshmallow Blue
10-08-2013, 04:22 PM
Sounds like those 18% No-Age recipes are lies. There are a few things that factor in; I'm not sure how much of this is science,

1. ABV- The lower the ABV the less aging time it will need. Hydromels and other <10% meads should clear quicker (but like all meads, should improve with age barring any accidents (oxidation etc)).

2. Yeast- Yeast selection does play a part in clearing times, or at least seems to. LoveofRose has done several experiments on yeast selection and finishing times. Beer yeasts tend to clear faster but limit you to a max of 12% typically (not a bad thing)

3. Temperature- Staying within your yeasts temperature range and fermenting cooler in general should help reduce the hot alcohols being produced (a smoother mead earlier in aging)

4. PH- It effects it, not sure on specifics, but it's a measurable difference I belive. Especially if it means stalling or not.

5. Fermentation management- Nutrition and aeration will help a ferment be healthy happy, and should finish and attenuate faster. Less yeast stress is always better.

Medsen Fey
10-08-2013, 06:30 PM
... I see some no-age recipies that use something like K1V with an ABV of 18%. That seems to contradict my theory. Basically I can't make heads or tails of what makes for a faster maturing batch of mead.








Sounds like those 18% No-Age recipes are lies.

Not necessarily.
Some of those recipes such as Joe's Grape Pyment can use K1V without necessarily going to 18%. That recipe gets stabilized and backsweetened and the ABV gets diluted down some.

Generally speaking, keeping a lower ABV and keeping it sweet helps makes a quick-mead that is ready faster. Some yeast may also make quick meads that are better - 71B, DV10, and possibly 1388 are options to consider.

A key point is that even meads that can be consumed quickly are likely to get much better with aging.



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loveofrose
10-08-2013, 06:32 PM
If you want hard science for this question, I am afraid we are all lacking. That being said, I've been operating under a yeast centric theory that has seemed to work out so far. There are basically two rules I follow:

1. Unstressed, completely blissful yeast make mead with less fusels.
2. Some yeast naturally produce less fusels or have a broader range of tolerated conditions. This is a genetic/biochemical component specific to each yeast.

Based on the above theory, each yeast has a specific set of conditions required to make it completely happy with absolutely no stress and no fusel production. This would include temperature, ph, nutrients, type of honey, etc. My approach has been to set a specific condition and find a yeast that is very happy with those conditions (Wyeast 1388 in my case).

Now, back to your questions. JAOM uses the above to some degree, but also relies on sweetness and spices to hide fusels. If you have any doubt of this, add 3 lbs of honey or no spice. It is terrible in 3 or 6 months. Even if you can't taste the fusels, they can still give a nasty hangover though! The above is why I test yeast without spice and fermented to dryness. Nowhere for the pesky fusels to hide!

Concerning an 18% no age mead, it can be done with perfect conditions and the right yeast. Admittedly, it will not be reproducable every time and age won't hurt it. I've only pulled this off once (See Ames Farm "Put on your Bigboy Pants") It is delicious now, though the sweetness is probably hiding some fusels. Even if you don't taste the fusels, they can still give a nasty hangover! That statement is worth repeating! As a result, I will age this mead before I drink it.

I hope that gives you the answers you were looking for!

Midnight Sun
10-08-2013, 08:38 PM
No science to JAOM, just magic! ;)

theEnvoy
10-08-2013, 08:43 PM
I guess I lean more to the art side of it, I have trouble analyzing the science part, but everything I make seems to come out great. It reminds me of some good cooking.

fatbloke
10-08-2013, 10:57 PM
I guess I lean more to the art side of it, I have trouble analyzing the science part, but everything I make seems to come out great. It reminds me of some good cooking.
Good cooking is, after all, just chemistry. You may not know all the chemical names within the ingredients, but that doesn't make it any less chemistry, with, in most cases, known reactions......

kudapucat
10-09-2013, 01:36 AM
FWIW

I put together two Shiraz Pyments this year.

they're 6 months old now.

One was 16-17% and sweet to taste, drinkable immediately, but not what I'd call good. (I used EC1118 so it could be 18%)
the other was 14% and dry, drinkable but very short and acidic.

Now, 6 months later, the sweet strong one is good, but will get better. The 14% is remarkably better, and definitely drinkable, but it will need another 6 months before I call it good.

It really depends on balance and blend.
If you get everything right, high sugar, high acid, high tannin all balanced, it's drinkable immediately. If you get one little thing wrong, it's like the 14% or worse and needs over a year to come good, but come good it will.

What's the 'right blend' for balance? Hell! Don't ask me, I just got lucky this time.

Maeloch
10-09-2013, 06:05 AM
Now, back to your questions. JAOM uses the above to some degree, but also relies on sweetness and spices to hide fusels. If you have any doubt of this, add 3 lbs of honey or no spice. It is terrible in 3 or 6 months. Even if you can't taste the fusels, they can still give a nasty hangover though! The above is why I test yeast without spice and fermented to dryness. Nowhere for the pesky fusels to hide!

I'll admit to quaffing half my first batch of JAO I made as soon as it cleared in a sitting - I didn't exactly feel like doing an Ironman the next day, but no worse than if I chugged the same of half decent supermarket wine. The ferment was pretty cool, maybe 15-18C / 60-65F - maybe JAO not always too bad with the fusels?

But hell yes on fusels and hangovers in general. Some of the brews I made as a student, designed to blow ones head off - all sugarred up to ~18%ABV, fermented above the boiler god knows what temp, zero aging, freeze distilled. Filthy stuff, and ugh the hangovers - incapacitating - put me off drinking homebrew for 20years.

fatbloke
10-09-2013, 10:52 PM
I'll admit to quaffing half my first batch of JAO I made as soon as it cleared in a sitting - I didn't exactly feel like doing an Ironman the next day, but no worse than if I chugged the same of half decent supermarket wine. The ferment was pretty cool, maybe 15-18C / 60-65F - maybe JAO not always too bad with the fusels?

But hell yes on fusels and hangovers in general. Some of the brews I made as a student, designed to blow ones head off - all sugarred up to ~18%ABV, fermented above the boiler god knows what temp, zero aging, freeze distilled. Filthy stuff, and ugh the hangovers - incapacitating - put me off drinking homebrew for 20years.
Yet according to yesterday's news, all you needed to do was get hammered, wake up with hanger going on, drink 2 litres of full fat Sprite and get more sleep.......bingo, no more hangover (or at least, that was the suggestion anyway).......

mannye
10-10-2013, 09:52 AM
Yet according to yesterday's news, all you needed to do was get hammered, wake up with hanger going on, drink 2 litres of full fat Sprite and get more sleep.......bingo, no more hangover (or at least, that was the suggestion anyway).......

If you didn't smoke tobacco that might work. If you sucked up a pack, you're sunk.

Chevette Girl
10-11-2013, 12:25 AM
...I think 2 litres of Sprite would make me sicker than the hangover... blargh.

Maeloch
10-11-2013, 05:32 AM
Yet according to yesterday's news, all you needed to do was get hammered, wake up with hanger going on, drink 2 litres of full fat Sprite and get more sleep.......bingo, no more hangover (or at least, that was the suggestion anyway).......

Pah all these hangover cures, they just pass the time till they fix themselves! Hair of the dog works and that's about it.

I read fructose shifts alcohol metabolism up a gear, but I've never noticed much odds with either having fruit juice based drinks the night before, the morning after or both (and fructose would include mead I guess).

Appologies to the OP for the thread derail.

/duck

Medsen Fey
10-11-2013, 09:01 AM
... Some of the brews I made as a student, designed to blow ones head off - all sugarred up to ~18%ABV, fermented above the boiler god know Filthy stuff, and ugh the hangovers - incapacitating - put me off drinking homebrew for 20years.

hangovers......bah
hangover cures..... humbug
If you're going to over do it you should take your whipping like a real viking!



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joemirando
10-11-2013, 11:20 AM
hangovers......bah
hangover cures..... humbug
If you're going to over do it you should take you whipping like real viking!



Sent from my THINGAMAJIG with WHATCHAMACALLIT now Free ('http://tapatalk.com/m?id=10')

"Aye lad, a hangover, gotten legitimately, should be dealt with the same way, lest we forget that for every moment of pleasure there is a moment of pain". ;)

Joe

mannye
10-11-2013, 12:33 PM
"Aye lad, a hangover, gotten legitimately, should be dealt with the same way, lest we forget that for every moment of pleasure there is a moment of pain". ;)

Joe

“Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy.”
― Frank Sinatra


“I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they wake up in the morning, that is the best they are going to feel all day-”
― Frank Sinatra

Two perfect quotes that sum it all up.

joemirando
10-11-2013, 01:19 PM
"Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!"
Isaiah 5:11, 22

I don't have to follow it. It stays right where the hell I put it. Considerate of it, huh? ;)