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DHicks908
12-16-2014, 02:17 PM
Here's my recipe...

Oak-Aged Dark Maple Cyser

approx. 25L batch (about 6.5 gallons)

approx. 5 gal unpasteurized apple cider

16.5 lb dark wildflower honey

2.5 lb (1 qt) Grade A Dark Amber maple syrup
1 lb dark brown cane sugar
1 lb golden Belgian candi syrup

this made my original gravity 1.155!!! or approx. 35 brix

added 1 tsp DAP (meant to add 2 tsp) to must and 2g Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)


Yeast - Lalvin k1-V1116 (10g)
rehydrated in 10g Go-Ferm then slowly added equal parts of must several times before pitching

staggered remaining nutreint additions (2 tsp Dap + 2g MgSO4 every other day for a total of 8 tsp DAP 8g MgSO4)

Aerated and degassed using a Helix paint mixer that attaches to my drill (got it at Sherwin Williams, ten bucks... HIGHLY recommended)

Going to rack onto oak chips that have been soaking in dark Jamaican rum in secondary carboy along with 1/2 tsp tannin



SOOOO my questions are....

1. it is hour 60 after pitching and my fermentation seems slow. SG dropped from 1.155 to 1.140 or about 3 brix. This is the first time i have started in a 30L fermenter bucket and I know they are notoriously leaky... but im getting NO airlock activity (my airlock is a hose into a gallon of sanitary solution)

2. was 10g of K1-V116 enough for 25L of a super high gravity must?

3. i read on white labs that with high gravity you should double the nutrients... but being that im making a cyser will the apple cider supply a decent amount of nutrients?

4. p.s. ive never checked pH in my life so i dont know how crucial this is

Squatchy
12-16-2014, 06:17 PM
So I have some more questions for you.

What temp did you make your rehydaration liquid? Was if just water? Did you add go ferm? Did you leave it sit longer that 20-30 minutes without feeding it something? Did you sprinkle it on top of the water and let it sit like that without disturbing it? Did it "proof",,, show signs of life? Did you gradually feed your yeast some must,,, bit by bit, both to attemperate (temp) and to get them more used to the OG ?

When you did pitch were the temps of your must and of your starter within 10 degrees of each other? You have zero temp info. That is important! You may have killed most of your yeast before you even got started.

Did you areate the must before you pitched? Was the honey blended well?

If you can answer those questions one by one. In the order listed we can help you much more :)

Squatchy
12-16-2014, 07:39 PM
Well, I see I asked a couple of questions I didn't need to. The others could still give us enough info to help

DHicks908
12-16-2014, 07:53 PM
Hey bud thanks for responding! this is my first post on this site.

For the rehydration questions. i heated to 110 deg F and mixed in 10 g Go-Ferm Protect and let cool to 104 deg F then added 10 g k1v1116. waited 20 mins then mixed in equal parts must. did that every fifteen minutes like 2 more times till it reached 68 deg F (same as must) and pitched um in.

I aerated the heck out of it with helix paint mixer for power drill pre-pitch and post-pitch a couple times a day. used this same tool to mix all the sugars together.


and honestly i think i was simply impatient because after aerating once more after posting and giving an early nutrient addition activity picked up significantly. just want to make sure it completes around 18% so im left with the residual sugars im looking for!

how do you feel about my nutrients additions? is 8 tsp DAP and 8g Magnesium sulfate (given in 4 equal doses every other day) adequate considering the apple cider should also supply some nutrient? i dont want to add excessive nitrogen or magnesium sulfate (epsom salt can be a laxative lol)

DHicks908
12-16-2014, 08:17 PM
Also... how do you feel about the use of tannin AND oak chips? 1/2 tsp tannin is low balling... as for the oak chips I'm using 28g (1 oz) heavy toast and 8.5g light toast blend thats been soaking in dark Jamaican rum. I've read one ounce per 5 gallons is legit, so I did the math to get the difference since I'm fermenting about 6.5 gallons (hence the 8.5g of light)

Squatchy
12-16-2014, 10:02 PM
Hi again

I'm pretty new to all this but I have read and reread everything I can over and over. Go-Ferm should be used at 1.5 the weight of your yeast. So, you were a little short on that amount. Also 1 tsp of Go Ferm = 2.8 grams.



You did really well on the temp things. I thought, since you didn't mention it, you might have not know better. I have read that oak chips are not near as good as "cubes". I have only used chips so far as well. Apparently the cubes are a more rounded effect where the chips are mono dimension able. I think most on here would add the oaking in the secondary or even latter racking's and check by taste for effect.

I really can't speak to using Epsom salt.

Your Staggered Nutrient additions should be as follows.

I believe most would add Potassium Carbonate to buffer your pH levels as per manufactures recommend. I believe I use 1 gram per gallon. Also pectinase as per to maximize fruit juices and keeps the fruit color better,,,,

Then you should make three nutrient additions. One at pitch, 1/3 sugar break, 2/3 sugar break. Use a ratio of 2 parts Fermaid to one part DAP. I blend them in bulk when I buy them and the I measure from the bulk blend. I use .75 tsp per feeding. Prior to each feeding you want to gently aerate to get the c02 out of your fermentor. Go easy so as not to foam over and continue in short burst until you can get more aggressive until all gases are gone. Mix your blend of nutrients in a clean container with a bit of must. Mix well and then SLOWLY add your food a bit at a time, so as to not cause explosions, and then mix in with your drill/mixer. Leave you bucket cover with your lid but not pressed down. Or cover with a cloth or such. This is to allow your must to breath. Once you are at your last feed then cover with your lid tightly and add your air lock. From that point forward do not aerate. Once a day, or every other, gently stir to mix your yeast back into suspension. This will keep your yeast happy and working and will taste better and will also eventually help clearing once you get ready to rack.

Hope that helps

DHicks908
12-16-2014, 10:46 PM
thanks man def helped. fermaid is one thing i havent tried yet but its mentioned soo much that i think ill try using it. with high gravity meads/cysers its so easy to get a sluggish fermentation if you dont stay on top of things.

Squatchy
12-16-2014, 11:28 PM
One other thing. You could start out when you pitch with not such a high OG. Once things get moving you could then add the last of your sugars/honey. That would be a little easier on the little guys :)

DHicks908
12-16-2014, 11:53 PM
I think I might try that after I have a recipe that I think tastes great and I'm positive of the OG so i can make accurate notes along the way. I always use the same local cider and same local dark wildflower honey so there shouldn't be much of a variance in sugar content. thanks for the help!

EJM3
12-17-2014, 06:19 PM
Step feeding is another great method for adding sugars to get a high ABV and/or residual sugars. Basically you start with a must of say 1.120 ferment is down to 1.005 or thereabouts, then add honey to bring the SG back to the point you like sweetness level, then let ferment, add, ferment, etc.. The yeast will eventually crap out on you, but you can also push a yeast WAY over it's tolerance (D47 can go to 18% or higher, K1V 21% or higher) using this method. I have used K1V and tried to get a sweet mead and instead ended up with an even higher ABV than I planned. Other times I have tried to get dry and stopped sweet. This is a learning process that just takes time and experience.

The way I have learned the most is to find what failed my expectations, looks over the notes, ask advice, and try again. Only one of my 23 ferments to date needed a tossing (I know they say to never toss one, but this was WAY worse than "Satan's Anus"), the rest have either been drunk, or are in secondary bulk aging before going into tertiary for bulk aging then bottling.

The yeasties have a lot to say in the matter, but they do NOT take instruction, read, or listen to anything we say and will merrily process things in their time and to their level of completeness (or not).

These are my experiences so YMMV.

Stasis
12-17-2014, 10:25 PM
Agree with what EJM3 said about step feeding. I'll just add that by step feeding you would also avoid the ferment stalling out on you and leaving you with something overly sweet which has to be restarted

EJM3
12-17-2014, 10:45 PM
Or add some more water to the mix and bring the SG down to under 1.140. Osmotic shock might not always kill but can cripple the yeasties and make for an "interesting" fermentation (tried a 1.150 and it STANK!) that can require a longer than normal aging period...

DHicks908
12-18-2014, 06:26 PM
thanks for the input everyone... has anyone else ever used maple syrup?? this is my second go-about with it.. the first time i added wayy to much. It doesnt take much.

curgoth
12-19-2014, 01:45 PM
If you search on "acerglyn" you'll find a pile of recipes with maple syrup. Acerglyn is the most common term for a mead made from honey and maple syrup.

EJM3
12-19-2014, 01:52 PM
Wrathwilde is a notable that created the "Wrathwilde's Acerglyn Aphrodisiac (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/9177-Wrathwilde-s-Acerglyn-Aphrodisiac)" recipe as well.

DHicks908
12-19-2014, 05:44 PM
Nice! that makes sense that its called acerglyn because the Latin word for Maple is Acer. sugar maple is Acer saccharum

DHicks908
12-20-2014, 01:33 PM
I got paranoid again this morning. I'm right before the 1/2 sugar break (I'm at 19 brix and i started at 35) and i saw no bubbles or obvious signs of active fermentation. I added two addition teaspoons of DAP and 2 more grams of magnesium sulfate. I then rehydrated and assimilated 5 more grams of K1-V1116 before pitching in fermenter. an hour later i can see signs of active fermentation.

I've read so many different posts on super high gravity meads and the amount of nutrients to use, some saying to use up to 2 or 3 times the normal amount. but i never see sources or anything to warrant such claims. I also dont know the nitrogen content of apple cider. that would help. so I'm really just making constant observations and a bunch of educated guesses

EJM3
12-20-2014, 10:22 PM
I'd be careful of 3x the DAP! That can leave some serious nastiness from what people say. Those that use it regularly can chime in better.

Sometimes when they say "high gravity" they mean "high ABV" instead. There is a mead by the name of "półtorak" that uses 1 part honey and 1/2 part water, or the "dwójniak" at 1 part honey and 1 part water. There is no way for ANY yeast to ferment that, so they use all kinds of things like ferment to as high an ABV as possible, add the extra honey, and fortify with "grain spirits" (everclear).

Just throwing massive amounts of DAP at it constantly is not going to help much from what I have been learning...

DHicks908
12-21-2014, 10:01 AM
so here is what I was pondering... is the nutrient content just based off of the volume of the must or does it have a correlation with how many packets of yeast you use??? more yeast need more nutrients, or is that a bad way to look at it??

GntlKnigt1
12-21-2014, 11:17 AM
My experience with maple syrup is that it is wasted unless used in back sweetening. It loses flavor if fermented. At a certain point, you can overfeed yeast, resulting in a bitter final product unless using Fermaid O. Adding more yeast won't move the problem.

DHicks908
12-21-2014, 02:03 PM
maple syrup is definitely pricey... ill have to consider backsweetening with it instead. thank you

Honeyhog
12-21-2014, 05:56 PM
The number of packets of yeast are irrelevant as yeast will reproduce until they eat all the sugar whether you start with one packet or five. The amount of nutrient will depend on the volume and gravity of the must.

DHicks908
12-21-2014, 09:29 PM
is there a formula you use to determine nutrient content? My volume is 6.5 gallons and my starting gravity was 1.155

DHicks908
12-23-2014, 10:57 AM
so its been three days this morning since i pitched an additional 5 g of k1v1116 to my must. its has been a steady one bubble a second the entire time. the gravity was at 1.080... if it continued to drop around three brix a day it should be around 10 brix today. if thats the case the fermentation should be nearing completion and should be almost an acceptable sweetness. winning! now i just hope this k1v1116 doesnt burn up ALL my residual sugar!!!

EJM3
12-23-2014, 04:36 PM
Yeah it's done that to me more than once. I expected them to finish off and leave a bit of sweetness, but no, the FG ended up at .990. The little basetards ate every last scrap of sugar they could find, giving me an ABV of 17.06% and a 17+ month aging time as well. I was aiming for dry anyway, just not Saharan like dryness. We'll see how it bulks for a while, then I'll decide on back sweetening a bit if at all. Probably keep it as is...

DHicks908
12-25-2014, 12:18 AM
or maybe blend with a less dry mead

DHicks908
12-28-2014, 01:19 PM
Happy holidays everyone! So yesterday was day 14 of fermentation and it began to slow down heavily. I racked into a clean glass carboy and topped it off with approx half a gallon of fresh cider. Fermentation picked up almost right away... but now I am curious if it is at all possible to accurately check my SG, considering I altered the overall volume of the liquid and the concentrations of all the sugars, etc. ???

Squatchy
12-28-2014, 06:14 PM
so here is what I was pondering... is the nutrient content just based off of the volume of the must or does it have a correlation with how many packets of yeast you use??? more yeast need more nutrients, or is that a bad way to look at it??


I could be wrong here. And if I am please someone say so. But, I believe that the yeast will naturally stop reproducing accordingly once the "right population" level is reatched. I think when we add more packages up front it just gives them more man power to do the work as well as more soldiers to fight off the bad guys. I have never read anywhere, that the amount of food is dependant on populations. So far I have only read based on volume of liquids.

Squatchy
12-28-2014, 06:19 PM
Happy holidays everyone! So yesterday was day 14 of fermentation and it began to slow down heavily. I racked into a clean glass carboy and topped it off with approx half a gallon of fresh cider. Fermentation picked up almost right away... but now I am curious if it is at all possible to accurately check my SG, considering I altered the overall volume of the liquid and the concentrations of all the sugars, etc. ???


Here's a suggestion. If you just continue to add honey untill the yeasties all croak you can just imagine then, that the ABV% is somewhere close to the tolerence level. I don't care personally if I'm one or 2 points off. It's (in my opion) the FG that makes it drinkable or not. That's why I suggested at the top of this thread, to start with a lower OG so your ferment would go smoothly, and then add the rest of your recipies honey amount after your midway into your ferment. :)

Medsen Fey
12-28-2014, 09:40 PM
Volume of must and gravity along with the specific requirements of the yeast strain used are the key determinants of nutrient amount needed. The quantity of the yeast pitched really isn't so important. In fact, with a large biomass yeast pitch (5+ g/L) you can ferment without nutrients - one trick for successful "show meads."

EJM3
12-29-2014, 04:21 PM
Volume of must and gravity along with the specific requirements of the yeast strain used are the key determinants of nutrient amount needed. The quantity of the yeast pitched really isn't so important. In fact, with a large biomass yeast pitch (5+ g/L) you can ferment without nutrients - one trick for successful "show meads."

I have been searching all over the `net trying to find a method for fermenting show meads but have been coming up short. THIS ^^^^ is exactly what I was looking for. 5+g/L must. Got it!!! Thanks Medsen!!

Medsen Fey
12-29-2014, 07:59 PM
You can also boost a show mead using a technique where you add 2.5 or three grams per liter of wine or bread yeast rehydrated in boiling water, and then adding 0.25 g/L of wine yeast when the temp is down to 104F. Then pitch after 15 min. If you select a low-nutrient requiring yeast, and use a pollen-laden unfiltered honey it can work.

EJM3
12-29-2014, 08:55 PM
Hijack has been moved: Click me!! (http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/23977-Show-mead-methodologies?p=239589#post239589)

Squatchy
04-19-2015, 10:16 AM
so here is what I was pondering... is the nutrient content just based off of the volume of the must or does it have a correlation with how many packets of yeast you use??? more yeast need more nutrients, or is that a bad way to look at it??

The amount of yeast is not a determining factor in this. You can start with one yeast or 50 million and you'll stil end up at the same place. More yeast just makes it easier to get through the process without problems. It gives them an advantage against the bad/wild yeast.

Read this!


This is my approach (and although there are similarities to other nutrient methodologies, we do differ somewhat). It agrees for the most part with the recommendations of Lallemand and other commercial yeast manufacturers.

First, I make an assumption that the honey that I use in any of my musts provides negligible amounts of YAN.

Next, I determine what (if any) fruit I will use in primary fermentation.

Then, I try to find out (for melomels) how much YAN is present in the fruit I plan to use (measured in ppm, for the given volume of fruit I'll add in primary). If I can't find info on YAN for my particular fruit, I assume a baseline value of 100 ppm. That's close enough for gov't (and mead) work.

Then I work out the dilution of that fruit-supplied YAN in my total volume of must. If for example I am mixing up a 5 gallon batch of must, and one gallon is pure fruit at 100 ppm, then I will dilute by a ratio of 1/5, so the net YAN in my fully mixed must is 100 * 1/5, or 20 ppm.

I next find the nitrogen requirements of my yeast. For most commercial yeast strains we only know if the demand is low, medium or high. For low demand yeasts, I ensure that the total YAN is 225 ppm. For medium demand yeasts, I ensure that the total YAN is 300 ppm. For high demand yeasts, I ensure that the total YAN is 350 ppm. These are numbers that I've found through trial and (mostly) error that will produce clean ferments with minimal H2S production in my meads.

Note: Those values are what I use for "normal strength" meads, which for me are musts that range in initial gravity from 1.080 to 1.100 (Initial Brix range of 20 to 24). For initial Brix of 24 to 27 (SG from 1.101 to 1.115) I multiply my normal strength numbers by 1.1. For Brix from 27 to 32 (SG from 1.116 to 1.140) I multiply the normal strength numbers by 1.25. For initial gravities in excess of that, I wing it.

I calculate how much Fermaid-K and DAP to use knowing that Fermaid-K has 13% YAN by weight and DAP is 21% YAN by weight. Another way to express the YAN content of those is that 1 gram of Fermaid-K provides 130 ppm of YAN to a single liter of must, and 1 gram of DAP provides 210 ppm of YAN to a liter of must.
Last edited by wayneb; 02-17-2010 at 04:23 PM.