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gunit00
01-22-2016, 02:48 PM
I have a question regarding Dansk Mjd Vikingernes Mjd. In this video, (https://youtu.be/AOkAq4IwHp8?t=69) , the owner of Dansk Mjd says that he adds alcohol to stop fermentation. Has anyone tried or heard of this method? I wonder what kind of alcohol he uses. Vodka? It almost sounds like a cheap shortcut to killing the yeast and getting a high abv wine. This might be one the main reasons I did not like the taste of Dansk Mjd.

Thanks!

bmwr75
01-22-2016, 03:35 PM
I've heard of it. The alcohol addition must raise the mead above the yeasts tolerance and kill it.

Mazer828
01-22-2016, 04:31 PM
It's the same method used to make port wine. I have a batch planned using the same method. If you can spike the alcohol enough to raise the %abv above that strains tolerance level, you shock, combined with a cold shock, you can cause the yeast to quit and drop out well before all your sugars are gone. Haven't pulled the trigger on mine yet but I'll probably post it here before I roll on it.

Stasis
01-22-2016, 05:36 PM
that doesn't sound like the right way to go about stopping fermentation. I wonder if wineries also do this to stop fermentation. except when they are making fortified wines, of course

Mazer828
01-22-2016, 07:22 PM
The intent is to stop the ferment while also "replacing" the alcohol that would have been produced had fermentation been allowed to continue.

gunit00
01-22-2016, 08:19 PM
The intent is to stop the ferment while also "replacing" the alcohol that would have been produced had fermentation been allowed to continue.

I think we all understand the logic. But adding alcohol will not give the same flavor profile had the fermentation been allowed to continue. I think is almost bastardizing a mead to add alcohol to it. Should it still be considered a mead?

Mazer828
01-22-2016, 09:02 PM
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I understand your point. But it's a method. And I only mentioned it in response to a question. After all isn't that what we're here for? To share experiences and methods? Whether you choose to use it, or whether I choose to use it, is all a personal decision. And if you choose not to call it mead, that is in no way going to prevent me from drinking or enjoying it.

Squatchy
01-22-2016, 11:51 PM
It is still mead according to the definition. I have done this before. It works like one might expect. The yeast die, it clears. Age it enough to integrate and you would never know the difference. Gunit00 you would never know I did it. Maybe you should try something first before you comment like you know :)
I bet they used to ask the same question. Really? Is it still mead if you add nutrients? It wouldn't taste like mead for sure. Isn't it almost like bastardizing it to add nutrients? Should it still be considered a mead? I have head there are some a holes who are now adding fruit to it.

pokerfacepablo
01-23-2016, 12:44 AM
that doesn't sound like the right way to go about stopping fermentation. I wonder if wineries also do this to stop fermentation. except when they are making fortified wines, of course
Yes it's called fortification. Fortified wines are usually mixed with brandy to keep that grape flavor.

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pokerfacepablo
01-23-2016, 12:54 AM
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I understand your point. But it's a method. And I only mentioned it in response to a question. After all isn't that what we're here for? To share experiences and methods? Whether you choose to use it, or whether I choose to use it, is all a personal decision. And if you choose not to call it mead, that is in no way going to prevent me from drinking or enjoying it.
List it in the ingredients when you're entering a competition. As far as the quality of the method, I use it for a Port recipe I'm proud of.

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Stasis
01-23-2016, 12:59 AM
It is still mead according to the definition. I have done this before. It works like one might expect. The yeast die, it clears. Age it enough to integrate and you would never know the difference. Gunit00 you would never know I did it. Maybe you should try something first before you comment like you know :)
I bet they used to ask the same question. Really? Is it still mead if you add nutrients? It wouldn't taste like mead for sure. Isn't it almost like bastardizing it to add nutrients? Should it still be considered a mead? I have head there are some a holes who are now adding fruit to it.

I think Gunit had a very valid point and that this comment could have been misinterpreted as a bit insensitive...
Actually, I am very surprised nobody has brought up a thread such as this one before and this could be something which really needs to be addressed. It is well known that regulation regarding mead is not set in stone for commercial meaderies. Some are classified as breweries, some as wineries, some as cider.. meanwhile there are regulations in place which make sure establishments provide an honest product to the consumer because unlike what you said squatchy, it's not ok simply if the consumer cannot tell the difference in taste. For example, there are complex regulations regarding chaptalization for wineries (adding sugar to wine).
What we do as a home brewer could be a whole different story, although I still think that if commercial establishments have regulations for some reason we could still gain by knowing what they are and why. The link provided in the first post in this thread refers to commercial meadery.
Similar to chaptalization I am concerned about the regulations regarding adding alcohol to a mead, which is why I posted my comment. Gunit also has a valid point IMO. should this still be considered by us as mead? What about for commercial meaderies, where is the breakoff point? With meads possibly having sugars from fruit, sugar, and honey, and now with the known ability to add alcohol, where are the lines drawn?
P.s I am not referring to doing this as a fortification process like port. I am referring to doing this for a normal 12% mead. I think gunit was also referring to the usual strength mead. The video in the link says the meadery wants to create a fortified-style mead and I think they might sell it as one, so that is ok. My concern is for other cases

Stasis
01-23-2016, 01:14 AM
Yes it's called fortification. Fortified wines are usually mixed with brandy to keep that grape flavor.

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Could wineries make a wine, fortify it with brandy and sell it as a 'normal' wine without advising the consumer though? This is why I added 'except when they are making fortified wines, of course' to my post.

Btw I am honestly unsure of whether or not you replied to this question in your answer since I do not know what the 'yes' refers to. I am also honestly just expressing thoughts and not arguing with anyone. I hate when it seems I am insisting on a point when I just want to discuss. Forums suck like that. I also know for a fact that squatchy is not an insensitive type person, and maybe nobody here interpreted his post like that, except me

Mazer828
01-23-2016, 01:18 AM
One of the oldest and most well renowned meads sold commercially is a fortified mead. Lindisfarne mead, made on the Holy Island of Lindisfarne. It is technically a hippocras according to current BJCP/MJCP guidelines, and has spirits added. Yes the evidence may be anecdotal, but this rather ancient example of a commercial mead recipe that has been passed down since the days of Charlemagne is part of our life blood as mazers. I've been known to have a purist bone or two in me from time to time too. But at the heart of any art is creativity and innovation. Let us not be so quick to exclude something as "impure" or "improper."

pokerfacepablo
01-23-2016, 01:50 AM
Could wineries make a wine, fortify it with brandy and sell it as a 'normal' wine without advising the consumer though? This is why I added 'except when they are making fortified wines, of course' to my post.
I hope not, kind of like gmo labeling. Sorry briefly looked it over.

I totally agree with making breweries and their labels more accountable for what's inside. I only add a liter to raise the abv up a little so the fermentables is still mostly honey. There was a heated argument with my first Port recipe about how to truly to define a port. The opposing side was adding way too much spirit, in my opinion, to his recipes. If we take away to much of the honey taste, what's the point of making mead.

Another question that doesn't help but curious... do breweries/meaderies have to label when they barrel age in spirit barrels?

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pokerfacepablo
01-23-2016, 02:07 AM
It's my fault for not reading the next sentence. Call me lazy with not being able to read more than one sentence in a paragraph. My bad.


Could wineries make a wine, fortify it with brandy and sell it as a 'normal' wine without advising the consumer though? This is why I added 'except when they are making fortified wines, of course' to my post.

Btw I am honestly unsure of whether or not you replied to this question in your answer since I do not know what the 'yes' refers to. I am also honestly just expressing thoughts and not arguing with anyone. I hate when it seems I am insisting on a point when I just want to discuss. Forums suck like that. I also know for a fact that squatchy is not an insensitive type person, and maybe nobody here interpreted his post like that, except me

Squatchy
01-23-2016, 02:43 AM
I also want to say I meant no disrespect to anyone. I didn't realize there was a link in the OP. I just got home from working a massive work week where I have been doing 18 or 20 hours with 4 or 5 hours rest and back to another 18-20 hour stint and have done it like this since Monday. I mistakenly missed the point as I had not realized the "commercial" aspect. What I was speaking to was how the process in question was allowed in the "Style guidelines" of BJCP. As you know these are the guidelines we compete in at the Mazer's cup. My jesting in good fun was misinterpreted. I hope to always add valuable banter for the up and coming mazers in this community as well as to confer with others that have been around a while to push forward our understanding/parameters for the betterment of all who consider themselves a part of this community.



I went back and reread my reply and totally understand how I came across as an ahole.

Sorry guys. I meant no harm

Stasis
01-23-2016, 03:03 AM
If we take away to much of the honey taste, what's the point of making mead

At the moment I don't think there is any point. Unfortunately if a meadery were to do this it would give mead a bad name, but for now I don't think it will happen since people would try it, not like it and move on. However, in the future when, hopefully, mead becomes much more popular, some meadery might try to do it to cut down costs while upselling their product by simply writing 'mead' on the label even if it is a bad example of one. Where there is money you can count on someone trying to abuse the system.

Meanwhile as a wine and mead maker I agree that it is great that I can add anything I want to my brews. While I would want a commercial company to be upfront I would add sugar to my wines to raise the alcohol level especially so as to test how good something tastes as a wine before moving onto replacing sugar with honey

pokerfacepablo
01-23-2016, 03:54 AM
What I was speaking to was how the process in question was allowed in the "Style guidelines" of BJCP. As you know these are the guidelines we compete in at the Mazer's cup.




It ends up in the Open category due to the distilled spirits. Yes it's ok to submit as long as you list the spirit in the ingredients and it doesn't exceed the honey fermentable percentage. Like I said before in an earlier post, I only use a liter for a 5 gallon batch.

Mazer828
01-23-2016, 12:13 PM
I have a question regarding Dansk Mjd Vikingernes Mjd. In this video, (https://youtu.be/AOkAq4IwHp8?t=69) , the owner of Dansk Mjd says that he adds alcohol to stop fermentation. Has anyone tried or heard of this method? I wonder what kind of alcohol he uses. Vodka? It almost sounds like a cheap shortcut to killing the yeast and getting a high abv wine. This might be one the main reasons I did not like the taste of Dansk Mjd.

Thanks!
The original question was "has anyone tried or heard of this method?" I don't think we're off track at all by discussing both the implications of doing so at a home or commercial level. There have been some great points made here, with some of us cleverly reminding others that we are all artists, and we all think outside the box from time to time, so let's not demonize that.

But we all draw our lines in different places. I may take more creative liberty with my mead making than another. And there may be something my brother or sister mazer does that I just can't align with for whatever reason. And that's still legal (for now).

What I see us all agreeing on at the moment is that whatever goes into the bottle should go on the label. The consumer should not be misled, especially by this art we are all so fiercely protective and supportive of.

gunit00
01-23-2016, 06:05 PM
What a spirited discussion. It looks like we are shedding light on a grey area of mead. I did a little detective work on Dansk Mjod's vikingernes , https://mjod.dk/collections/frontpage/products/vikingernes#, and the description fails to mention any alcohol added. It reads " Contents : Honey added hops , water and spices - 19% alc." .

zpeckler
01-23-2016, 11:15 PM
As far as I'm concerned, if the Portuguese can do it and port is still wine, then we can do it and the resulting product is still mead.

I may be biased because I loooooove port, though. ;)

I agree that if this technique is used it should be clear to the consumer. We as a meadmaking community will have to come up with a name for a mead made this way.

loveofrose
01-23-2016, 11:54 PM
Mort? Sounds a bit dark. Fortified mead?


Better brewing through science!

See my brewing site at www.denardbrewing.com

See my Current Mead Making Techniques article here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/current-mead-making-techniques.html

Mazer828
01-24-2016, 01:14 AM
Ha! "Spirited" discussion, indeed! LMAO. I'm always tickled by puns. Anyhoo... In case it bears any relevance to this topic, there is another long-standing commerical example of a fortified mead, made on the Holy Island of Lindisfarne. It's actually called Lindisfarne Mead. It's on my bucket list of places I'd like to travel to. Very near the top. But their flagship mead recipe apparently dates back to the time of Charlemagne, and was officially made a recipe in like 1962, and has remained unchanged since then. BJCP/MJCP guidelines would call it a hippocras, as it is made with white grape juice, honey, and spices, and is fortified with alcohol. But unlike the previous commercial example in this thread, Lindisfarne advertises this fact openly, which I admire. I have yet to taste any of Lindisfarne's meads, but I think I may just have to order a couple of bottles soon. I'll call it business-related research. Maybe even write it off. ;-)