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BadBeat
03-23-2016, 07:25 PM
I'm based in Australia (Sydney) and I am planning my second mead (first was a JAO).

Target Medium Sweetness: 1.010
3kg (6.6lb / 105.8oz) Australian Stringybark Honey (Medium to Dark honey)
Total volume: 2.3 Gallons (8.7 litres)
D47 @ 65F (18C) in temp controlled fridge

I have Fermaid A, DAP & GO-FERM.

Reading the docs, it says a 30g/hl addition of fermaid A provides the must with 36-37mg YAN/L, 5-6mg of which is organic YAN.

Lallemand Yeast protection and nutrition dosage guidelines say:

For Juice/Must YAN: <125 mg/L
Yeast Rehydration: GO-FERM 30g/hL
Start of AF: Fermaid A 10-30 g/hL
1/3 through AF: Fermaid A 10-30 g/hL

It then has further info: if the YAN level of the juice or must is below 70 mg/L, add 25 g/hL of diammonium sulphate (DAP) at the beginning of fermentation, with a 30 g/hL of FermaidŽ A around 1/3 through alcoholic fermentation (AF).

I was going to follow the newbee guide which says 1/4 tsp per gallon of DAP @ 1/2 tsp per day for first three days. Then add a single dose of Fermaid A @ 30 g/hL @ 1/3 sugar break.

Do the above figures look ok?

Cheers,
BB

HunterandtheHarp
04-25-2016, 08:58 AM
Hey mate,

How did you go sorting this out yourself? I'm starting to do some heavy reading on Fermaid A and came across your thread today, I'd be interested in hearing how it's going and if you had a link to the docs you mentioned?

I've been using Fermaid A for the last year, just using it like Fermaid K pretty much. No DAP, (not for any particular reason just I've never gotten around to getting any) and now that I'm really starting to understand there's a lot more to understand, I'd like to learn more about it. Unfortunately not much info is about as GotMead is all about the K and the O and not much on the A.

Some reading last night quoted 10-30g/hl which if my maths is right is .1-.3mg/l. 100-300ppm. Couldn't find where the YAN info was though. Does that mean that if we scale down the hectolitres to litres we get .036mgs at .3mg/l? That can't be right. Hopefully this little thread bump might spark something. There's a lot of smart mead-makers discussing K and O, maybe if one of them could help?

Squatchy
04-25-2016, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry that the OP was never replied to. I will come back later when I have more time. What you want to find out is what 1 gram of "A" will equate to YAN ppm. The rest is easy after that.

zpeckler
04-25-2016, 09:52 PM
Yeah, sorry your question never got addressed.

Looking at the Scott Labs 2015 Fermentation Handbook, Fermaid-A will give you 120ppm YAN when dosed at 1g/L. For comparison, Fermaid-K gives you 100ppm.

Both A and K are based on DAP and autolyzed yeast hulls, so they provide both inorganic and organic nitrogen sources. The main difference is that Fermaid-K has added thiamine, sterols, niacin, fatty acids, and a few other minerals. I guess they make the different formulas to comply with the different laws in our two countries.

Squatchy
04-25-2016, 10:35 PM
Yeah, sorry your question never got addressed.

Looking at the Scott Labs 2015 Fermentation Handbook, Fermaid-A will give you 120ppm YAN when dosed at 1g/L. For comparison, Fermaid-K gives you 100ppm.

Both A and K are based on DAP and autolyzed yeast hulls, so they provide both inorganic and organic nitrogen sources. The main difference is that Fermaid-K has added thiamine, sterols, niacin, fatty acids, and a few other minerals. I guess they make the different formulas to comply with the different laws in our two countries.

So show how what his feeding schedule should be :)

zpeckler
04-25-2016, 11:09 PM
So show how what his feeding schedule should be :)
Haha! Haven't had a pop quiz since grade school. :D

D47 is listed as having "low" nitrogen needs by Lallemand, comparable to 71B or K1V. From this I figure the yeast will need about 250ppm* to get through an OG of 1.100, rounded to 240ppm to make the math with the Fermaid-A simple. With 120ppm YAN that means 2g/L to get to the YAN goal. With an 8.7L batch, that's a total of 17.4g Fermaid-A. Split that into four feedings of 4.35g at the end of lag, day 1, day 2, and the 1/3 sugar break.

It's worth noting that if this were Fermaid-K, the US TTB limits its use to 0.5g/L because of the added thiamine. Fermaid-A doesn't have this restriction, so I don't see a problem omitting the DAP and using 100% A. Since A doesn't have any added micronutrients, the way I figure it your yeast could use every little molecule of these micronutrients that will be in the yeast hulls in the A. Why take that away from them by giving pure DAP (which is completely micronutrient-barren) as a percentage of the supplied YAN.

...And, of course, rehydrate with GoFerm!


*Based on my experience with my go-to yeast, K1V. I've only used D47 once so I can't say I know it's quirks very well at all.

HunterandtheHarp
04-27-2016, 07:35 AM
With 120ppm YAN that means 2g/L to get to the YAN goal. With an 8.7L batch, that's a total of 17.4g Fermaid-A. Split that into four feedings of 4.35g at the end of lag, day 1, day 2, and the 1/3 sugar break.



I'm still trying to figure a lot of this out but, if the recommendation is 10-30g/hl then adding 17g sounds like way to much. I may very well be missing something here but.............

Farmboyc
04-27-2016, 08:34 AM
I'm still trying to figure a lot of this out but, if the recommendation is 10-30g/hl then adding 17g sounds like way to much. I may very well be missing something here but.............
That would be the recommended addition rate for a wine must.
Honey is nutrient deficient and requires more YAN for a proper ferment.

zpeckler
04-27-2016, 08:50 AM
From the Scott Labs Fermentation Handbook...

Fermaid-A gives 30mgN/L when dosed at 25g/hL, or 0.25g/L.

That equates to 130mgN/L.

HunterandtheHarp
04-27-2016, 04:59 PM
Is 130mgN/L= 130mg of Nitrogen per litre? Which would be 130ppm. Does this equate to YAN somehow ie: 130 YAN?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stasis
04-27-2016, 07:15 PM
130 mg N/l is 130mg of Nitrogen per litre. This equates to ppm because 1mg is a thousandth of a gram (0.001), and there are a thousand grams in a litre. Therefore there are a million mg in a litre. ppm means parts per million. It's like percentage but instead of out of 100 its out of 1 million. 1mg is 1 ppm in a litre.

if you followed so far...

130ppm has no meaning per se. It's like saying 130%... 130% of what? Here we would know you're referring to Nitrogen. More accurately Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen (YAN). So if you say 130ppm it is still totally understandable

130 YAN also has no meaning per se. This is because you left out the measurement. It's like saying 130 of flour. 130 what of flour? But since we always calculate in ppm (parts per million) you will also be totally understood in these forums if you said 130 YAN. In all cases ideally you'd say 130 ppm YAN.

Extra:

They mentioned that 1g of Fermaid A in a litre provides 120ppm YAN. Now, if Fermaid A were pure Yeast assimilable Nitrogen it would provide 1000ppm yan (1g = 1000mg). This means that only 12% of Fermaid A is usable as nitrogen by yeast. The rest is either not assimilable nitrogen or not nitrogen at all (vitamins, minerals etc). Fermaid K is 10% usable nitrogen.

zpeckler
04-27-2016, 07:58 PM
From the Scott Labs Fermentation Handbook...

Fermaid-A gives 30mgN/L when dosed at 25g/hL, or 0.25g/L.

That equates to 130mgN/L.

Just noticed my typo... That should be "120mgN/L."

HunterandtheHarp: mg/L is equivalent to ppm.
1 ml of water weighs 1 gram. This is a fact. Water has a Specific Gravity of 1.000 so that means 1ml of it has a mass of 1 gram.
1 Liter of water = 1,000ml = 1,000g.
1 mg (milligram) = 0.001 grams.
So if there is 1mg (0.001g) of some substance in 1 Liter (1000g) of water then there is 1PPM (0.001g/1000g=0.000001).

I generally prefer to think in mgN/L instead of ppm. Like Stasis said, ppm is kind of dimensionless. It's basically a ratio; 1:1,000,000. mgN/L is a concrete measurement.

HunterandtheHarp
05-01-2016, 10:14 AM
Thanks legends,
It was the YAN from the mg/L which I'd been struggling to get a handle on. Stasis that was a really well worded and easy to understand, so thank you. And thanks to zpeckler ro all your assistance. But I'm still missing something and am starting to feel stupid, I'm mean I'm not that bad at maths. zpeckler you said that if 25gms of A is added to a hectolitre (or .25g/L) amounts to 30mg/L (300ppm). So where does the 130/120mg come from?
Stasis does this 120mg mean YAN? I still can't follow this part even if I only use the 12%............arrgghhh.

zpeckler
05-01-2016, 03:50 PM
Hey Hunter,

Sorry for the abbreviated math. Wrote those posts at work and didn't have a lot of time.

Fermaid-A gives you 30mgN/L when dosed at 25g/hL.
1hL = 100L
25g/hL=25g/100L
25g/100L = 0.25g/L

So if 0.25g/L=30mgN/L, multiplying by 4 to make 1/4th of a gram a full gram, 1g/L=120mgN/L.

The 130mgN/L from my initial calculation was a typo. Wrote that on my smartphone and didn't notice. Big fingers, little screen. ;)

Zac

fatbloke
05-08-2016, 06:39 AM
Maybe Ken Schramm explains mead nutrition better ? On my homebrew blog, a link to his Zymurgy article is there........

I don't think he mentions either of the newer ones like A (or E for that matter), but to my mind his explanation is clear enough to work out when you know how many PPM is provided by whichever fermaid version you're using (there's even a kosher version available, though where you'd find it outside Israel is anyone's guess)........

And yes, the different versions allude to either market/ingredient difference or organic etc......

HunterandtheHarp
05-11-2016, 10:36 AM
Let me throw this one out there.
Known values:
PPM wanted (200) and Fermaid A YAN% (12) and must volume (5 gallons/18.93lts)
So,
200 X 18.93 = 3,786
We need 3.786 grams of YAN
So,
Fermaid A is 12% YAN
3.786/12%
We need 31.55 grams of Fermaid A to achieve 200ppm.
Numbers seem to stack up, makes my life easier too. Any flaws?

zpeckler
05-11-2016, 12:49 PM
You got it, Hunter! Of course, you can totally round to 32g. The extra half a gram isn't going to make much of a difference and makes measuring easier.

When you make this batch, split the 32g into four equal feedings of 8g each. Add them at the end of lag phase, 24 hours after lag, 48 hours after lag, and at the 1/3 sugar break.

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Squatchy
05-11-2016, 02:06 PM
I seem to blow past the 1/3 break all the time before I even get to the "time" table feed. I have tossed it in anyway. I'm sure if it's before the 1/2 break you will be fine.