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View Full Version : Read this about aeration. Better mead making techniques!!!



Squatchy
05-08-2016, 10:12 PM
This is a note I sent to another forum member and thought we all would benefit from this info!


I am by no means an expert on any of this. I am how ever a earnest reader and devour everything I can find on things attached to passion.

One of the best books I have read is Yeast The practical guide to beer fermentation. By Chris White (White labs) and Jamil Zainasheff Both are PhD's and in the book everything is footnoted to scientific publications. This is the stuff I love. It's not guys who think they know things. It's lab coats who have devoted their entire life to the scientific study of, in this case, beer/whine yeast.

So the piece I sent you from Morebeer said, (and I have seen this same info in other places) tells us yeast in fact do not need O2 to make alcohol. They resperate either way. The reason they do so much BETTER with O2 is it helps them to build the proper cell wall and sets then up to withstand the toxic environment in the latter phases of fermentation.

So in the book they have an entire chapter on fermentation, Duh! :P

The section about O2 supplementation tell us what I am now about to relay to you. After much studies (from the authors as well as other scientific journals) they have determined the proper amount of dissolved O2 in a must for beer must (as you know much lower than mead must) Beer gravities need 8-10 parts dissolved O2. Of course higher gravities need more yeast which in turn need more yeast = more O2 still. Mead must are best suited with 12-15 ppm.

Must splashing devices such as carboy splashing/sumo wrestling supply approximately 4 ppm. With very aggressive shaking one might be able to bring this total up to 8 ppm. Even using an aquarium pump or drill attached lee's strirer for extended times will still only get you to 8ppm. The only way to get higher is to use pure bottled oxegyn and a .5 micron sintered stone.

To help homebrewers White Labs did an experiment injecting pure O2 into 20L/5.3 gallons of 1007 gravity using a .5 stone. At a flow rate of 1 ltr per minute the results are as such,,,,,,shaking for 5 minutes 2.71 ppm, 30 seconds pure O2 5.12 ppm,,, 60 secs pure O2 9.20, 120 seconds 14.08.


If we have a must with a higher gravity of 1083 we must aerate with pure oxygen > Not only do we do as advised above we also have to aerate a second time. A second dose between 12 and 18 hours can help speed and attenuation. The yeast quickly takes up this oxygen and uses if for cell membrane maintenance and the production of some needed intermediary compounds. Research also indicates the addition of oxygen between 7-12 additional ppm at 12 hours increases fermentation speed by as much as 33% and decreases flavor compounds such as diacetyl and acetaldehyde. Why wait for 12 hours? You are waiting for yeast to make at least one cell division. There is no additional benefit before the yeast has had a chance to divide at least once.

Above 100 you might chose to adjust your pitch rate to 35 million cells per millimeter. At 48 hours you can also raise the temps just a couple degrees to keep your yeast working at a maximum. AT this point most of the flavor compounds have already been made and a small raise in temps will not affect the flavor profile but will help the yeast finish strong.



-----Original Message-----

Stasis
05-08-2016, 11:23 PM
This contradicts a previous study I had taken to be true which says rocking/shacking is basically the best way to aerate a must, especially for home mazers who do not wish to spend more money on air stones, pumps, and pure O2. Interestingly, this study also mentions that over-oxygenating with pure O2 can be toxic to yeast. This means that you cannot simply scale up the required amount of O2 depending on gravity since at some point you will reach toxicity. beer musts might do well with 8-10ppm O2 but we cannot be sure mead can be best at 15ppm unless we are also sure this amount is not toxic.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/AerationMethods.pdf

You also said that aerating before 12 hrs after the previous aeration is pointless because cell division has not yet occured. Since cells don't divide all at the same time this means:
- Cells can use O2 even if they are just about to divide a few minutes later. Reason: once you aerate and O2 is taken up swiftly afterwards, many cells have undoubtedly just divided (because there are millions of cells and statistics). The cells will then be 11.5 hrs into their next cell division by the time you aerate again.

-If cells which absorbed O2 DO NOT absorb any more before 12hrs (do they?)...
This means that mazers who aerate the must multiple times a day (I go for 2-3 times) would effectively be supplying oxygen to those cells which were not provided O2 during previous aerations. If yeast need 12ppm O2 in 12hrs, then perhaps a mazer might supply this 12ppm through 3 sessions of rocking and shacking of 4ppm each. I'd imagine my shacking would be considered agressive given that I shake multiple times allowing for plenty of degassing and O2 introduction over a 5 minute period. I went for the minimum 4ppm anyway just for the sake of the argument.

- If cells which absorbed O2 DO absorb further O2 before 12hrs for no apparent reason...
What I said in the previous point is still valid except we will not be guaranteed all cells have been provided O2. Undoubtedly some cells will absorb twice their needed O2 for no reason, while others will not be lucky enough to get any O2 at all. However, because of statistics, it is impossible that the exact same cells will absorb O2 during each of the 3 aerations throughout the day. This effectively means that the amount of O2 ppm through a 12hr period can definitely be more than 4ppm if you rock and shake the carboy. Possibly even almost (or as) effective as using an expensive setup of Wort aerator, air pump and filter, and pure O2. Meanwhile, beer musts have to be more sanitary than mead musts which means they have to follow the suggestions in your study and use pure O2.

I am not saying anything against this study, I am just asking the following:
What is O2 toxicity for yeast?
Do yeast re-absorb O2 before the 12hr cell division even if they do not need it?
Is there a way for mazers on a budget to get an approximate same result through shacking as using pure O2?

Having said this, I am always seeking to perfect my craft. Perhaps using pure O2 will be my next step once I am sure I have no other areas in which to improve. My current biggest hurdle is probably temp control

Squatchy
05-09-2016, 10:13 AM
It's no surprise your the first to respond. I love that curious minds want to understand what we are doing when we make mead. I too am always hungry to make the very best mead I can.

You have great points and I'm not sure I really know the answers. As I began in my post I am not and educated expert. But rather a hungry, self taught reader. I guess unless we have the opportunity to be the guys in the lab coat starring through polished glass the best we can do is rely on what they tell us is true. And yes, when we read thier info and have questions we can only try to understand what they say in context to the report.

So this is now what I offer, possibly a way to try to understand their stuff in context.

I re read your link several times so as to not miss something. Here is the quoted pertinent statement.

The infusion of pressurized pure oxygen into wort
is undoubtedly another effective means of raising
the wort oxygen content. However, there are
added costs associated with the use of pure
oxygen, and there is some risk of toxicity to the
yeast from over-oxygenating wort. Saturating wort
with pure oxygen is likely to be toxic to the yeast.
Thus, some means of monitoring the oxygen
content of the wort or of controlling the amount of
oxygen delivered to the wort would appear to be
necessary. Testing the relative effectiveness of
aerating with air versus pure oxygen would be a
reasonable and useful addition to experiments
presented here.

So the writer says there might be some risk of toxification. He doesn't seem to know for sure, but only assuming there could be some risk and that could be a place for further study. Chris White has spent a good bit of time visiting breweries and testing the O2 parameters of these breweries. Many times to help them to get things on track. He did state that too much O2 in beer "can be detrimental to head formation and retention.

He then went on to say "the only way to reach the 10 ppm is with the addition of oxygen. Later in the chapter he was also the one who recomende adding the additional does of oxygen at the 12 hour mark. I have also read this very thing in a Lallemande piece Lehnard Cohn wrote refering to this additional aeration in the wine business as a pretty standard procedure.

When they tested the vigorous shaking method in a 5 gallon carboy they observed a 2.71 ppm level at 5 minutes. Admittedly, I do not know how to interpret the % of saturation in the link you provide, to be able to translate that to ppm. I'm sure one could find that answer very quickly with Google. I'm trying to get this off to you before heading out to the salt mine this morning.

So with information I posted, I can only suggest what I think was the line of thought in regards to the addition of O2 at the 12 hour mark. Assuming most of the scenario's Mr White deals with prohibit shaking multi-barrel vessels for obvious reasons. We can surmise the one time addition at the 12 hour mark would be x hours post lag so that all of the yeast, including the late budders, would have split. This would ensure that all of the yeast would be recipients to the O2 addition.

He was the one who then suggest to add the amounts of additional O2 at the rates I wrote in the opening piece. They have graphs showing speeds of fermentation and attenuation rates with different amounts of O2 to support the "best" additions based on kenetics. I don't know about toxicity but I'm sure he does and would not suggest in his book to add X amounts knowing those metrics would be toxic. I would image if the rates of additional O2 we toxic you would see that in the graphs, rather than "best performance" results.

I get it that you have bigger challenges where you live. I live in a wonderful location that makes my temp control super easy to stay within 2 degrees the whole time with almost zero adjustments.

The fix here with oxygen is very affordable. You can buy these things,,,, https://www.morebeer.com/category/wort-oxygenation-aeration.html along with this ,,, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-1-4-oz-Oxygen-Gas-Cylinder-304179/202044702

FYI. I just made a pyment with cab concentrate using my methods and the yeast chewed through 20 points a day at temps just 2 degrees above the lower end of the tolerance window. It's only at 1020 now but it has zero off flavors. I don't have a side by side comparison but I have been using O2 for a while now and with the O2/Goferm/ Fermaid O/ temp controls protocols all in order I have never made such good meads. The last 30 gallons or so have been quite drinkable even before they clear. I now filter my stuff, and have had one high ABV batch have a bit of alcohol heat early on but as soon as my oaking started to calm that it has become one of my favorites.

Please reply :)

Stasis
05-09-2016, 10:36 AM
Squatchy, can you confirm that the studies you have read state using pure O2?

I have read in this book, for example, that you should use compressed air rather than pure O2 because of toxicity
"Simple mechanical agitation or pumping over may not increase the oxygen concentration to the levels needed. It is recommended that sterile compressed air be bubbled (using an air stone or similar dispersion device) directly into the starter tank. Because of toxicity, the use of pure oxygen should be avoided (Fugelsang, 1987, p. 135).

Meanwhile, the Wyeast site says compressed air is not recommended since it is inefficient and pure O2 should be used for upwards of 8ppm. Wyeast state that it is fairly simple to reach 8ppm of O2 through shacking though. It takes just 45 seconds
http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm#r44
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

There is also this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gpehf_6Gk

P.s I am not researching too much, I'm just finding stuff off of a similar thread in another forum

Apart from asking "Is pure O2 toxic to yeast?" we might also need to ask "Are yeast in contact with pure O2 long enough for it to be toxic?"

Stasis
05-09-2016, 10:42 AM
well you replied to much of that while I was writing my reply!

Can't read and reply more now as I gtg. Will definitely read more into this

Squatchy
05-09-2016, 11:07 AM
Yes I can confirm they are talk pure O2. They said that with the first hour all the O2 added prepitch is gone already

EvolvingCaveman
05-09-2016, 03:07 PM
Good information, Squatchy.
I have on my project list to build a stir plate large enough to do a 5 gallon bucket.
I though about alternating between running the stir plate and an aquarium pump
until the 1/3 sugar break.

brgeren
05-10-2016, 08:19 PM
Just wanted to thank you both. I love it when those who understand more explain why to do things instead of just tell how. Now I can add more knowledge to my minimal mead arsenal. And even if this conversation isn't exactly definitive, I learned from my wife who is a doctor that even medicine can be more art than science at times), so thank you both and please keep sharing (and explaining) for all us amateurs :-)

Squatchy
05-11-2016, 08:51 PM
It's nice to hear someone actually likes to read this type of thing. So often when I post up science stuff only the same few people join in. It's really meant to help raise the bar for all of us.

Squatchy
05-11-2016, 08:53 PM
Good information, Squatchy.
I have on my project list to build a stir plate large enough to do a 5 gallon bucket.
I though about alternating between running the stir plate and an aquarium pump
until the 1/3 sugar break.

According to the book you can't get more that 8% with an aquarium pump. The same as what I would tend to believe your stir plate would provide. They don't require oxygen to make alcohol. Huge misnomer here. They can make it on their own. The cell wall is made much heartier when they have it in the prescribed phases of their life line.

zpeckler
05-11-2016, 09:07 PM
It's nice to hear someone actually likes to read this type of thing. So often when I post up science stuff only the same few people join in. It's really meant to help raise the bar for all of us.

The science is totally appreciated, Squatchy. The level of discussion I see in some of these threads is up to the standards of my hospital's journal clubs! You guys really know how to dissect a paper. A hearty thanks to the great gurus of mead who participate in these threads!

Someday we'll see mead get the same level of scholarly attention that wine does. Someday... It would be really exciting to see the same level of scientific rigor and volume of peer-reviewed publications that we see in the oenology journals. Lord, the Patron Section would be blowing up constantly!

Squatchy
05-11-2016, 10:38 PM
Thanks brother. I appreciate the comment and I appreciate your involvment in the forum as well!

pokerfacepablo
05-11-2016, 11:56 PM
What is O2 toxicity for yeast?
Do yeast re-absorb O2 before the 12hr cell division even if they do not need it?
Is there a way for mazers on a budget to get an approximate same result through shacking as using pure O2?

Having said this, I am always seeking to perfect my craft. Perhaps using pure O2 will be my next step once I am sure I have no other areas in which to improve. My current biggest hurdle is probably temp control

Great points being brought up here. Also curious if this will pertain to wine yeast since the studies are done with beer yeast and wort. Hopefully it won't pertain to wyeast 1388... I love my BOMMs.

I recently received an oxygenation kit and used it on 2 batches. I had it dialed high which caused the disposable tank to run dry fairly quick. Might purchase a 5lb tank to bring down the longterm cost. Anyway, no major off flavors with oxygen wand. I used only wine yeast so far. D47 and Wyeast 4767 (fortified wine yeast). I used the wand twice a day for the first 1/3 sugar break. Both must of been dialed high. No actual way of reading without a O2 regulator.



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Squatchy
05-12-2016, 06:41 AM
Great points being brought up here. Also curious if this will pertain to wine yeast since the studies are done with beer yeast and wort. Hopefully it won't pertain to wyeast 1388... I love my BOMMs.

I recently received an oxygenation kit and used it on 2 batches. I had it dialed high which caused the disposable tank to run dry fairly quick. Might purchase a 5lb tank to bring down the longterm cost. Anyway, no major off flavors with oxygen wand. I used only wine yeast so far. D47 and Wyeast 4767 (fortified wine yeast). I used the wand twice a day for the first 1/3 sugar break. Both must of been dialed high. No actual way of reading without a O2 regulator.



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I think most things hold true regardless of weither it's beer or wine yeast. I hope to get Chris White and other yeast experts on the radio show in the near furture.

Stasis
05-13-2016, 04:49 PM
Well crap I just had an idea...

- It makes sense to me that the O2 requirements of a must also relies on the biomass of yeast in the must. More yeast cells = more O2 ppm to feed all those hungry mouths. Makes sense?
- Is the biomass in beer and mead must more or less the same?
- Is overpitching yeast, in a way, moot since shaking cannot provide enough O2 to all the yeast? Is it possible that overpitching removes yeast stress from one factor and creates more stress in another?
- I have a theory that TOSNA creates a lower biomass and this is partially a reason why the ferment is so efficient. My theory was fleshed out in this thread http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/25288-I-think-common-practice-is-over-feeding-our-little-ones! If this is true, then Squatchy's find here further solidifies my theory since a lower biomass would require less O2, the yeast are less stressed out and would create tastier mead. Wish I had easy ways to verify these theories :/

zpeckler
05-13-2016, 05:00 PM
- I have a theory that TOSNA creates a lower biomass and this is partially a reason why the ferment is so efficient. My theory was fleshed out in this thread http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/25288-I-think-common-practice-is-over-feeding-our-little-ones! If this is true, then Squatchy's find here further solidifies my theory since a lower biomass would require less O2, the yeast are less stressed out and would create tastier mead. Wish I had easy ways to verify these theories :/

I wish someone had a microscope to do cell counts. [emoji14]

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zpeckler
05-13-2016, 10:02 PM
A bit of a digression, but I'm wondering what pieces of equipment you guys use for oxygenation?

Currently I'm using your classic aquarium pump attached to a 2micron stone, plus a lot of agitation with my lees stirrer. Controlled oxygenation with pure O2 is the last big step I have to take towards total control over all the variables in my meadmaking. What's stopped me form pulling the trigger is that if I'm going to shell out for an O2 system I want one where I can measure and control the flow rate; i.e. set the flow to a given L/min. After reading "Yeast" I'm doubly convinced that I don't want to spend the money for an oxygenation system unless it's one where I can add O2 at a rate that I can control. Unfortunately, the O2 systems available at the big online retailers (MoreBeer, Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, etc) include regulators without measurable flow rates.

Squatchy
05-13-2016, 10:34 PM
A bit of a digression, but I'm wondering what pieces of equipment you guys use for oxygenation?

Currently I'm using your classic aquarium pump attached to a 2micron stone, plus a lot of agitation with my lees stirrer. Controlled oxygenation with pure O2 is the last big step I have to take towards total control over all the variables in my meadmaking. What's stopped me form pulling the trigger is that if I'm going to shell out for an O2 system I want one where I can measure and control the flow rate; i.e. set the flow to a given L/min. After reading "Yeast" I'm doubly convinced that I don't want to spend the money for an oxygenation system unless it's one where I can add O2 at a rate that I can control. Unfortunately, the O2 systems available at the big online retailers (MoreBeer, Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, etc) include regulators without measurable flow rates.

Yes it's true no flow rate monitoring with the more beer gear. That is the cheapest system. WIth you already owning the stone you only need to spend $35 to get the fitting. Don't buy a medical O2 bottle unless you can get a Dr's script. They won't fill it without one. I use a .5 stone. Lets look around and see if we can find a youtube, or similar showing what the regulated flow looks like. I think even if you don't know for sure, only being able to get the 8ppm with an aquarium pump (which is only 2/3 the way there) it can't hurt to use the pure O2. I'm going to hunt for some help.

Squatchy
05-13-2016, 11:02 PM
So here's my thoughts.

Yeast can actually make their own O2 = (respiration). This is how they feed themselves which give us the alcohol. Please see this ,,,, https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxygen_in_fermentation

So the O2 we give them at pitch and possibly there after, in leu of this and other reads would indicate that the O2 is used/stored to maintain the cell membrane. Particularly, at the end of ferment when things get difficult. Building and maintaining armour if you will to combat the toxicity.

Lastly here is what the measured in ppm with different applications in 20L,,,, Shaken for 5 minutes,,,,2.71 ppm,,,30 seconds pure O2,,,,5.12, 60 sec O2,,,9.20, and 120 seconds gave 14.08 ppm

I have always wondered if the biomass is established based on volume and conditions. Lets face it, at some point the yeast decide it's time to get to work, yes? I'm working backwards here so hear me out. Yeast replicate (bud) for 12-15 times before there are spent. The spawn every 3-4 hours. I think perhaps this is how the biomass is determined. If they can determine work load maybe they can do the math and fiqure how many yeast they need and how many spawns would generate enough mass to get to the end with a certain desired population.

If you look at elk heard populations we know that a certain plot of land can support X amount of elk in good fashion. This is caller caring capacity. Once the caring capacity begins to wain the elk naturally migrate to new land to allow regeneration the the tired plot of land. I wonder if yeast can sense a certain caring capacity of a volume of must? This is my next hunt. To find how the biomass is determined.
In the "yeast book" they show several graphs that prove the proper O2 equates to a faster ferment, higher attenuation. The comparisons that are graphed are 2.7, 5.12, 9.2 and 14.08. You can see the higher O2 does everything better.

Squatchy
05-13-2016, 11:39 PM
Duplicate sorry, duplicate sorry, duplicate sorry,

ScottBehrens
05-14-2016, 01:59 AM
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, the O2 systems available at the big online retailers (MoreBeer, Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, etc) include regulators without measurable flow rates.[QUOTE]

This one will do the trick.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/OXYGEN-REGULATOR-FOR-WELDING-TANK-P3476.aspx

pokerfacepablo
05-14-2016, 02:40 AM
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, the O2 systems available at the big online retailers (MoreBeer, Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, etc) include regulators without measurable flow rates.[QUOTE]

This one will do the trick.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/OXYGEN-REGULATOR-FOR-WELDING-TANK-P3476.aspx
The dial is very deceiving and not at all accurate when using a brand new tank. Had to crank it almost full blast before I saw any trace of bubbles. Midwest employee stated that their oxygenation kits can be hooked up to all O2 regulators. Just got a steal on one at Midwest for $30 since they were getting newer models. Waiting till next paycheck to pick up a 5lb tank.

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ScottBehrens
05-14-2016, 02:43 AM
Were you using a brand new stone?

pokerfacepablo
05-14-2016, 02:44 AM
Yep

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ScottBehrens
05-14-2016, 02:58 AM
Strange with a new stone....I didn't get mine from Williams, got it from Amazon but their price is 60 bucks now for what looks like the same thing. At first I had a similar problem so bad it blew my tubing off the wand. POP! The stone was just clogged. I boiled the stone and occasionally blasted some air through it while boiling and haven't had a problem since. Seems to work fine for me, but I haven't plunked down the cash for a DO meter.

zpeckler
05-14-2016, 11:54 AM
Hmm, it hadn't clicked before that there'd be a variation in flow. Now that the lightbulb has gone off, it's clear that the patency of your stone and the fullness/pressure of your cylinder would make it so that even if your regulator you might not necessarily get the flow rate you set.

Perhaps in the interest of consistency and reproducibility an in-line flow meter would be more useful than a regulator?

pokerfacepablo
05-14-2016, 12:47 PM
Hmm, it hadn't clicked before that there'd be a variation in flow. Now that the lightbulb has gone off, it's clear that the patency of your stone and the fullness/pressure of your cylinder would make it so that even if your regulator you might not necessarily get the flow rate you set.

Perhaps in the interest of consistency and reproducibility an in-line flow meter would be more useful than a regulator?
The larger tank and regulator would save me money in the long run plus provide a more accurate reading. The disposable tanks are about $20 and last about 4 batches tops for me. The tank he mentioned that he had for 2 years and still wasn't empty. $60 for 5 lb tank. The stone didn't seem to be clogged but I could be wrong. I'll boil the stone next time I use it to be sure. I also placed a metal hose clamp on because I don't trust plastic ones. No leaks noted around the seal.

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ScottBehrens
05-15-2016, 07:41 AM
Not saying this is the problem, but I learned to always leave the tank running when you remove the wand, if you stop it while inserted in the fermentor it will backfill must into the stone/wand, making boiling a must. ;)

Mazer828
05-16-2016, 07:49 AM
It doesn't backfill, because there is a sufficient stop at the valve to prevent it. It's like inserting a straw into a glass of water, with your finger over the end. Unless you take your finger off, the straw stays full of air. A thorough rinse with hot water and a nice star San soak for my stainless microperf "stone" after use is all I've ever needed.

ScottBehrens
05-16-2016, 04:47 PM
Mine does, I guess its a phreak of nature.

Real simple test: stick it in starsan for a few minutes without air on, pull it out, turn on air, watch what comes out.

X-tian
02-18-2017, 03:26 PM
Thoughts on .2 micron stone providing more dissolvable O2 due to smaller bubbles escaping less at the surface?

HeidrunsGift
02-18-2017, 08:41 PM
I have not seen a .2 micron stone yet. I have seen 2.0 micron, and 0.5 micron. Not sure if you were exactly asking this....but: both will dissolve O2 into must. However, 0.5 micron is more efficient, meaning at the commercial level this can make a huge difference for how much O2 you have to pump into a ton of must. As far as home-brewing goes, the oxygenation times we talk about to reach 14.08 ppm with pure O2 (2 minutes with a 5.3 gallon batch, with OG 18.7 Plato) is referred to using a 0.5 micron stone (Zainasheff's book). I'm not sure how less efficient the 2 micron stone is than the 0.5, so I would not know how to accurately adjust the time for the 2 micron one. The last time I checked they are about the same price, so I would just go with the 0.5 micron stone.

jmbradbury
02-18-2017, 09:32 PM
Thank you squatchy for this post , a lot of new information for us newbies to digest . Will need to invest in the Chris White book.
James.

Squatchy
02-18-2017, 09:56 PM
Thank you squatchy for this post , a lot of new information for us newbies to digest . Will need to invest in the Chris White book.
James.

You're very welcome sir. Thanks for the kind words!

X-tian
02-18-2017, 11:20 PM
Yes, sorry. I made a typo in that I meant 2 micron. I tried google searching on this but didn't come up with much. Just saw someone say something somewhere about the bubbles being so much smaller and therefore diffusing into the must (wort, in his case) better than 0.5. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with just regulating it so that I'm not blowing it too hard to the surface, as Squatchy has recommended. I'll just go with what was advised in Zainasheff's book and use the 0.5 for at least 90 seconds. Thanks!

X-tian
02-19-2017, 11:27 AM
One of the best books I have read is Yeast The practical guide to beer fermentation. By Chris White (White labs) and Jamil Zainasheff Both are PhD's and in the book everything is footnoted to scientific publications. This is the stuff I love. It's not guys who think they know things. It's lab coats who have devoted their entire life to the scientific study of, in this case, beer/whine yeast.
-----Original Message-----

Just placed my order for this book! EXCITED!! Thanks, Squatchy!

Squatchy
02-19-2017, 11:52 AM
Glad to see you stepping up your game X-tian

JamesMTH
02-23-2017, 06:07 PM
I picked up one of these link (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01N0UWZ2T/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1487887481&sr=8-5&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=.1+to+1.5+oxygen) on Amazon for 22 ish bucks shipped. They are perfect for aeration.

JamesMTH
02-24-2017, 04:20 PM
Here are a few good articles on Aeration. They are all for wort though, so its not exactly the same but it does bring up something I noticed.

BYO.com 4th, 5th, and 6th paragraph (https://byo.com/mead/item/2040-are-welding-oxygen-canisters-are-safe-to-use-for-wort-aeration)

Effectiveness of Various Methods of Wort Aeration, by Fred L. Johnson, Cheddington Brewery, Apex, North Carolina, USA (media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/AerationMethods.pdf)

On Brewing Bavarian Helles: Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing (http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles.pdf)

Could we be over oxygenating with the pre-pitch O2 addition. Most of the O2 calculations are assuming there is no O2 already in the must. Which is untrue unless you have boiled the water just before adding the honey (or boiled the must, which I know no one here does!), or used campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite) at a level high enough to remove chlorine, chloramine, sanitize any fruits, and leave some SO2 behind. Most likely all of the SO2 will have dissipated prior to the pitch and the DO of the H20 will be 100% again.

I have searched around but could not find an exact answer for the question "is there any dissolved O2 (aka DO) in Honey". I don't think there is but like I said could not find a yes or no answer. If anyone knows please post the link here! :).

If the answer is no (to DO in Honey), and you have not boiled your water or put a ton of SO2 in from campden. Then the must would contain the DO from the water. The DO of water is dependent on the elevation, temperature, and saturation level. The typical DO of water at sea level, 70 degrees F, and 100% saturation is about 8.9 PPM.

So if we have a must for a traditional mead that contains 3.69 Gallons of water and 1.31 gallons of honey. Then using a simple mixture calculation ((3.69*8.9)+(1.31*0))/(3.69+1.31) = 6.57 DO.

That would mean if we were setting a goal of 12 PPM pre-pitch we would only need to add 5.43 PPM of O2.
Using a .5 micron stone at .2 liters per min of 99% O2 it would only take 22 seconds.

If you used the calculation with the assumption that the starting PPM was zero then you would would actually be over oxygenating the must by 6.57 PPM and setting it to a level of 18.57 instead of the 12 you were shooting for. Which is a level that could be toxic to yeast.

Unless I am missing something or calculated something wrong. If I have please let me know!

Dadux
02-24-2017, 05:27 PM
Dont know that much about aereation and i dont use specialized tools to do it (i just shake a lot twice a day for the first days) but here are my 2 cents
Gasses balance. This means that yes, wated does have O2 as you say, dissolved. But it also means any O2 you add will tend to dissipate faster if there is more O2 in the water/must. How long before pitching the yeast you aereate will determine how much of it escapes.
About DO in honey, its unlikely it any worth-mentioning amounts.
Keep in mind you inadvertedly oxigenate the must when you dump the honey in water, when you splash the water on the bucket, when you stir/shake to disolve honey... so for me, while your equations might be good, seems like the actual DO varies depending on the techniques... As you know, honey is also full of antioxidant compounds, so it might not be the same in mead as it is in wine or beer. And some people use campden tablets and that lowers the ammount of DO too.
Apart from that, I dont know to what extent DO is toxic to the yeast or what values of DO you need for it to be toxic. Those are important things too

JamesMTH
02-24-2017, 06:02 PM
Well the max DO you can get into water without using 99% pure O2 is the 100% saturation level. Here is a good calculator LINK (http://www.hbuehrer.ch/Rechner/O2satur.html)

So you never have to worry unless you are using an O2 tank.

Squatchy
02-24-2017, 09:13 PM
SO here is my thoughts. And it's not very scientific this time.

If Chris White said "this is how you do it". I'm all in. WHy would a guy who owns A yeast company, and spends his entire life wanting to help people make the best beer they can. ANd gets payed to do private consultations. And has the reputation of his company and his own welfare to us in his book to do something that goes against everything he stands for. Surely he know all of the things we toss around and wonder about.

I put this whole thing to bed a very long time ago. He said it. I do it like he said. I like what it brings to the table. I'm sold.

X-tian
02-24-2017, 10:44 PM
SO here is my thoughts. And it's not very scientific this time.

If Chris White said "this is how you do it". I'm all in. WHy would a guy who owns A yeast company, and spends his entire life wanting to help people make the best beer they can. ANd gets payed to do private consultations. And has the reputation of his company and his own welfare to us in his book to do something that goes against everything he stands for. Surely he know all of the things we toss around and wonder about.

I put this whole thing to bed a very long time ago. He said it. I do it like he said. I like what it brings to the table. I'm sold.

Hard to argue against this!

JamesMTH
02-25-2017, 01:31 AM
I'm just saying for the pre-pitch, once you add the yeast they soak up all the O2 so you should go from zero.

Squatchy
02-25-2017, 03:49 AM
I'm just saying for the pre-pitch, once you add the yeast they soak up all the O2 so you should go from zero.

I agree totally.

Squatchy
03-01-2017, 10:22 PM
A bit of a digression, but I'm wondering what pieces of equipment you guys use for oxygenation?

Currently I'm using your classic aquarium pump attached to a 2micron stone, plus a lot of agitation with my lees stirrer. Controlled oxygenation with pure O2 is the last big step I have to take towards total control over all the variables in my meadmaking. What's stopped me form pulling the trigger is that if I'm going to shell out for an O2 system I want one where I can measure and control the flow rate; i.e. set the flow to a given L/min. After reading "Yeast" I'm doubly convinced that I don't want to spend the money for an oxygenation system unless it's one where I can add O2 at a rate that I can control. Unfortunately, the O2 systems available at the big online retailers (MoreBeer, Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, etc) include regulators without measurable flow rates.

Look here Zac. https://www.amazon.com/Mini-Oxygen-Regulator-Adult-0-8LPM/dp/B004QXTP6C/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1488421325&sr=8-8&keywords=Flow+meter+for+O2

zpeckler
03-01-2017, 10:33 PM
Look here Zac. https://www.amazon.com/Mini-Oxygen-Regulator-Adult-0-8LPM/dp/B004QXTP6C/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1488421325&sr=8-8&keywords=Flow+meter+for+O2
Thanks man. I got this little device hooked up to my 0.5 micron stone. Works pretty well!

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/oxygenation-upgrade-kit

I seriously need a bigger O2 tank. I've been burning through the stupid little disposable ones way fast. It'd be worth it in the long run to get a reusable, bigger tank.

Squatchy
03-03-2017, 07:17 PM
Thanks man. I got this little device hooked up to my 0.5 micron stone. Works pretty well!

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/oxygenation-upgrade-kit

I seriously need a bigger O2 tank. I've been burning through the stupid little disposable ones way fast. It'd be worth it in the long run to get a reusable, bigger tank.

Yea. That's the expensive way to go. Get a bigger welding tank and it will last you years on a single tank.

WHat has been your experiences once you staerted doing the O2 thing? Are you only doing it a pitch or are you also giving it a second dose a little later? What changes do you think you are experiencing?

zpeckler
03-03-2017, 08:14 PM
Yea. That's the expensive way to go. Get a bigger welding tank and it will last you years on a single tank.

WHat has been your experiences once you staerted doing the O2 thing? Are you only doing it a pitch or are you also giving it a second dose a little later? What changes do you think you are experiencing?

I'm oxygenating at pitch and 24hrs later. It seems like I'm getting shorter lag times, but I haven't done side by side tests or anything. What I mostly like is the convenience of not having to run the aquarium pump for 30-45 min a day until the 1/3 break.

X-tian
03-08-2017, 12:04 AM
This is something I am using and LOVE it. Seems to be way better than the standard lees stirrer for both aerating and degassing. Can use in both buckets and carboys.

Clean Bottle Express Wine/Beer DeGasser. Search on Amazon.


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Ken2029
03-08-2017, 03:51 PM
Great information. Just got an O2 bottle in preparation for starting my first BOMM.

X-tian
03-08-2017, 03:55 PM
Great information. Just got an O2 bottle in preparation for starting my first BOMM.

Yes, I've started using pure O2 at pitch and 24 hrs and man are my yeasties going nuts for it! Love it! And love my whip stirrer (clean bottle degasser) for degassing and aerating after the 24 hr mark twice daily until 1/3 sugar break.


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Stasis
03-08-2017, 04:31 PM
I wonder if we're the only guys calling oxygen O2 rather than just O or whether other forums do the same..

Wow X-Tian that's 2 posts about that product in the same day in the same thread. Not to mention in the other thread as well. I'm not too sure you're not a partner with that company :P

caduseus
03-08-2017, 05:15 PM
I called Home depot. They knew nothing about O2 canisters. Where do you guys go?

Squatchy
03-08-2017, 05:49 PM
I called Home depot. They knew nothing about O2 canisters. Where do you guys go?

Home Depot. Tool section. Red bottles for plumbers soldering torch

X-tian
03-08-2017, 05:58 PM
I wonder if we're the only guys calling oxygen O2 rather than just O or whether other forums do the same..

Wow X-Tian that's 2 posts about that product in the same day in the same thread. Not to mention in the other thread as well. I'm not too sure you're not a partner with that company :P

Haha! I know, right?! I originally had an amazon link but decided to edit it out so peeps don't think I'm affiliated! Naw, I just really dig this thing and want to share things I find helpful. I have a lees stirrer I started out with, which is good, but I find the whip to mix so much more thoroughly. It's a little more flexible than the lees stirrer, though, so unsure if will hold up for as long over time than the lees stirrer. Creates a great vortex that Squatchy talks about the importance in getting the O2 from the air sucked down into the must, although he uses a lees stirrer which will also get the job done nicely. Is great at mixing fermaid O directly pitching into the must without clumps. Lastly, it's not too expensive!


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X-tian
03-08-2017, 06:05 PM
I called Home depot. They knew nothing about O2 canisters. Where do you guys go?

Don't forget to get a regulator with a barb to attach to tubing. I got the Eagle Brewing FE378 Oxygen Regulator off Amazon. Fits Home Depot canisters and works great!


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