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philodice
03-12-2017, 02:08 AM
I feel like I skipped part of the Mazer learning process because I haven't made a JAOM.
I have one mead in bottles made with prunes and raisins, and I really like that flavor profile.
Two more gallon carboys of traditional mead aging (just raisins, no prunes...but now that I've tasted the prune one I'm making another).
One gallon traditional mead in primary fermentation.
I haven't been brave enough to try anything with spices or fruit other than prunes and raisins.
Perhaps I'm limiting myself. I really want to try a rose petal mead. Ginger sounds delicious.
However, I worry that my friends will think I'm buying apple juice just for the jugs and spending all my money on honey.

A cyser seems logical. After all, there is juice in the bottle already...

This is so much cheaper and more fun than paying $8 at a tent pub during a festival.

So, I have a 3 gallon carboy that is just beckoning to me..."JAOM me! Wooooooo!" How can I resist?

caduseus
03-12-2017, 03:18 AM
Keep in mind JAOM uses a bread yeast, not a wine yeast. While it certainly CAN ferment honey it has not been bred (pun intended) for that purpose.

Analogy:
All horses can race. All breeds produce fast horses.
However each breed was bred for different purposes. Such as Appaloosas for the beautiful colorings and quarter horses for hauling.
While some non-thorough bred horses can and do beat some thoroughbreds, that is not something you can take very far.

Proof: You will never see any breed other than a thoroughbred qualify for the Kentucky derby let alone win it.

The moral: Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should do it.

Check out Denard Brewing. He has a JAO BOMM. This is essentially the JAO process using a Belgian ale yeast.

Squatchy
03-12-2017, 04:49 AM
I would suggest learning how to make traditionals. And when I say "learn". That is what I mean. Once you know and learn the science to good fermentation management techniques, and can produce good trads, everything is pretty easy after that. To just copy a recipe is ok. But what do you learn? With enough honey, or fruit additions you can make gasoline taste good. With a traditional, there is nowhere to hide any flaws. So any and all faults will show right off from the start. If you spend the time to learn good science you will raise your own bar for everything else you make.

philodice
03-13-2017, 12:04 AM
Well you got me there. A traditional is honey, water, yeast, and no raisins, right? My husband loves traditional and simple meads, and he thinks 4 prunes per gallon add a Dr Pepper taste he doesn't like. So fully traditional is next. Can't be too hard after growing kombucha for 5 years.
I'm too sensitive of palate to try hiding fusils with sugar. Gack.


I would suggest learning how to make traditionals. And when I say "learn". That is what I mean. Once you know and learn the science to good fermentation management techniques, and can produce good trads, everything is pretty easy after that. To just copy a recipe is ok. But what do you learn? With enough honey, or fruit additions you can make gasoline taste good. With a traditional, there is nowhere to hide any flaws. So any and all faults will show right off from the start. If you spend the time to learn good science you will raise your own bar for everything else you make.

Squatchy
03-13-2017, 10:10 AM
Well you got me there. A traditional is honey, water, yeast, and no raisins, right? My husband loves traditional and simple meads, and he thinks 4 prunes per gallon add a Dr Pepper taste he doesn't like. So fully traditional is next. Can't be too hard after growing kombucha for 5 years.
I'm too sensitive of palate to try hiding fusils with sugar. Gack.

You are correct in as much as raisins are not nutrients in the slightest. Hang around here some and study up a bit. Then, before you start your trad touch base with us and let us make sure you have everything in place before you start. That way you get off to a good start. "Buch" is way easier than making mead. It's almost not even comparable. I'm glad you understand this way of thinking. You will gains leaps and bounds doing this than making JOAMS. Not many of the good mazers I know ever make more than 1 or 2 JOAMS. If any before they move on.

Drewed
03-13-2017, 12:20 PM
I say if a JAOM sounds good to you, then make one. I don't see what all the snobbery against them is about. "Eww... Bread yeast isn't wine yeast, Muffy. How could you!!!" " You'll learn bad lessons...You'll shoot your eye out."

How is making a JAOM any different than making a cyser, or a cider, or a mead with *gasp!* bread yeast? Because it doesn't follow TOSNA? Because you don't have to have $100 in extra equipment to make it?

Sounds like a bunch of you have forgotten to have fun when fermenting.

Squatchy
03-13-2017, 12:58 PM
I say if a JAOM sounds good to you, then make one. I don't see what all the snobbery against them is about. "Eww... Bread yeast isn't wine yeast, Muffy. How could you!!!" " You'll learn bad lessons...You'll shoot your eye out."

How is making a JAOM any different than making a cyser, or a cider, or a mead with *gasp!* bread yeast? Because it doesn't follow TOSNA? Because you don't have to have $100 in extra equipment to make it?

Sounds like a bunch of you have forgotten to have fun when fermenting.

I totally agree with you Drewed. But for ME, it's like playing sports. Now days they teach kids to just have fun. Don't worry about how well you play. Hell,"we wont even bother to keep score" I sorta agree with this to a degree. But I never really enjoyed playing much on loosing teams. It's much funner to play to win. I have fun wining. I have fun gettin beat. When I get beat by someone better. And that's fine too. I don't really like just giving the game away by under preforming.

I'm not saying making a JOAM is wrong. It's just not much more than a cheap way to make an ok mead and doesn't really teach you shit. And again, for ME. It's not so fun to just shove some things in a bucket and forget about if for months.

If all you want to do is make an ok mead and learn virtually nothing then it fits the bill perfectly. :)

Dadux
03-13-2017, 01:14 PM
I totally agree with you Drewed. But for ME, it's like playing sports. Now days they teach kids to just have fun. Don't worry about how well you play. Hell,"we wont even bother to keep score" I sorta agree with this to a degree. But I never really enjoyed playing much on loosing teams. It's much funner to play to win. I have fun wining. I have fun gettin beat. When I get beat by someone better. And that's fine too. I don't really like just giving the game away by under preforming.

I'm not saying making a JOAM is wrong. It's just not much more than a cheap way to make an ok mead and doesn't really teach you shit.

I've never done a JAOM. And that is basically why. After i did my first two batches i learned of the exsitance of the JAOM recipe. And i thought...well now its really pointless (ok there are other reasons such as i hate raisins in mead). But if you are not really a beginer you can of course do a JAOM but why do a recipe that can be so incredibly improved by just a few changes? do the same just take more care of it and use a wine yeast and some nutrients and you will have a better mead. If you dont want the work, well then i get it. But I'd say there is really no need to do it. If you want to, then go ahead of course.
The problem is not the bread yeast or anything, you will just be doing something subpar, because you are using a subpar process. why un-learn?
And it costs very little to do an "improved JAOM". i still ferment with ballons LOL. and in buckets from a chinese store (food graded though, but they costed me 2.5e each). So what, 1 euro from the yeast, 1 from the nutrients and 1 from other additives? well its not so expensive...
And i totally have fun doing mead. I actually enjoy a lot. While doing it and after, when its done, seeing its good. Or just learning what i did wrong. And i love taking on a challenge and trying to create something that tastes similar than what to i imagine and want.
If you want to do a JAOM and think you will enjoy it, go ahead. I would not recommend you to do a mead you wont enjoy doing or that you dont want to do. There is nothing wrong with JAOM but if you aint a begginer you aint gonna learn much out of it, i guess. Just that.

caduseus
03-13-2017, 01:23 PM
There are 2 reasons to do a JAOM:
1) To test if a newbee can follow directions. If you can't do a JAOM right then you can do ANY mead right OR
2) If you have decided to go down the path of " pitch and leave" in mead making. For those it is also a great practice run

If neither of those apply to you but you still want to do something JAO then go to denardbrewing.com and do a JAO BOMM

antonioh
03-13-2017, 01:55 PM
Yellow is the finest colour you can find !

Is it ?

For me, yes. But it depends on the taste of each one.

I like very sweet and dessert meads (as almost everyboby in Portugal ) and even JAOM whith a final d=1027 is considered demi-dry. Iīve tasted dry traditional french meads rated as top meads, and I hated .

Learning is needed to apreciate dry traditionals. True that making traditionals you learn more, but for your first time is hard to go all the way whith a traditional. JAOM is a good option for a beginner so he can realy make something. Then he will try variations. And thatīs also a way of learning . Then if he / she really enjoys, he/she will try other yeasts. All is aprentissage.

Squatchy
03-13-2017, 02:29 PM
Yellow is the finest colour you can find !

Is it ?

For me, yes. But it depends on the taste of each one.

I like very sweet and dessert meads (as almost everyboby in Portugal ) and even JAOM whith a final d=1027 is considered demi-dry. Iīve tasted dry traditional french meads rated as top meads, and I hated .

Learning is needed to apreciate dry traditionals. True that making traditionals you learn more, but for your first time is hard to go all the way whith a traditional. JAOM is a good option for a beginner so he can realy make something. Then he will try variations. And thatīs also a way of learning . Then if he / she really enjoys, he/she will try other yeasts. All is aprentissage.

A traditional doesn't have to be dry. You can sweeten it to as sweet as you like it. Hell, you can even add fruit or spices after it's finished. The point is you can only make a clean trad if you do everything correct. It will be a clean mirror to show you how well you are doing. You can make a traditional as dry or sweet as you want to, and, you can make it as strong or as weak ABV wise as you want to.

But of course, at the end of the day we all can make what ever we want. :)

Dadux
03-13-2017, 04:59 PM
A traditional doesn't have to be dry. You can sweeten it to as sweet as you like it. Hell, you can even add fruit or spices after it's finished. The point is you can only make a clean trad if you do everything correct. It will be a clean mirror to show you how well you are doing. You can make a traditional as dry or sweet as you want to, and, you can make it as strong or as weak ABV wise as you want to.

But of course, at the end of the day we all can make what ever we want. :)

Damn. I was writing more or less the same... You beat me though

Dale1
03-30-2017, 05:33 PM
I think it's more of a preference of yeast type. Wine, champagne, ale and bread yeast all give a different taste. I seen people use wild yeast in their meads and have tasted some and it's quite delicious. I made a mead with Belgian ale yeast too that was good. I entered a mead that was made with Red Star Dry active yeast, that is used for bread, and it scored really high 42 and 43 out of 50. I have also tasted meads made with wine and champagne yeast and didn't care for it (of course I had some that I did like too). I do think there is a misconception on the quality of mead used with bread yeast. I know some mead makers that scoff at the use of ale yeast. I feel that it is more the quality of ingredients, sanitation, temperature and yeast nutrients that is gong to determine the quality of mead more so than the type of yeast used.

beecarp
03-31-2017, 10:42 AM
A JAOM always seemed to be a bit too easy. Surely all those hundreds of people making and enjoying their JOAMs were wrong. Finally made a gallon. 6 weeks, clear and bottled. This is the only mead so far out of some 20 odd batches my wife has asked if we had any more.
JOAM is too sweet, too bitter, yeast doesn't focculate, no nutrients, etc........... Can't stop sipping it. Absolutely an amazing recipe and I will be making more.

bernardsmith
03-31-2017, 12:29 PM
Apologies for butting in but the thing about a JAOM for a mead maker is that this is so absolutely counter intuitive and it works only because the creator of the recipe has a really deep understanding of the processes that under-gird a mead. In other words it is the furthest from a simple mead I can imagine and yet it is a simple mead... Every detail is critical - at least it is for the novice - And once you understand the role each detail plays then like anything else you can make a variation but if you really don't understand why each line of the recipe is included then any change you make will send the whole edifice crashing down... A JAOM is like a shaggy dog story: The tale meanders this way and that, piling one element on top of another.. but in this case the pay-off for those who make it to the end is worth the time spent. :drunken_smilie:

caduseus
03-31-2017, 01:15 PM
People don't even think about altering a JAOM unless:
1) you succeeded in making a JAOM following the recipe. NOT CLOSE but EXACTLY.
2) then do research understanding why a JAOM works. Bray talks about this on his website: denardbrewing

That said you can also follow Brays JAO BOMM- because it is a proven recipe!

If you don't follow directions with a recipe AND don't ask input advice before you start, then plan on your mead being a failure.
Of course once you become an experienced mead maker later on down the road after tons of reading and research as well as experience, then you can do your own thing.

bernardsmith
03-31-2017, 01:33 PM
Ah, but caduseus, the problem is that it is the most unseasoned novice who alters the recipe with the idea that if it works with this then it will work with that... only it doesn't...

dingurth
03-31-2017, 02:13 PM
If you don't follow directions with a recipe AND don't ask input advice before you start, then plan on your mead being a failure.
IMO, that seems a little harsh. Sure, altering JAOM can be tricky since that's a carefully balanced recipe, but at the end of the day mead is just water, honey, yeast, and its hard to screw that up**. The first meads were probably accidents after all but ended up good enough that people kept doing it. Even adding a fruit or spice or two doesn't alter things so much that it will be a failure. You'll just have to be patient. It's when people try to alter sugar content to get more alcohol, or do all sorts of additions and adjustments without knowledge or guidance that things can go haywire.

**with the knowledge that you'll have to wait at least a year for it to really come into its own

WayneG
03-31-2017, 02:25 PM
I am finishing a "by the book" JAOM just for Chits & Giggles.
It is my 3rd batch of mead and has been in a gallon plastic bottle for about 2 months.
I was going to bottle it but minor shaking of the jug fogged it up completely, so instead I did a pseudo racking to get rid of the chunks in the bottom.
I did pull off a sample and the flavor is OK, but not as good as my 1st traditional.
You can definitely taste the bitters of the orange peal. I am not a marmalade fan!
One surprising note is that before I moved the jug, the clarity of the mead was very good!
I plan to bottle it next week after I am back from NH. I may run it through a filter because the bottom sludge is easily kicked up with any motion of the jug.
Not sure if it was a waste of honey and effort yet. It was fun to do!
Wayne

bernardsmith
03-31-2017, 04:51 PM
WayneG - The thing about baker's yeast is that it does not "cake" like wine or ale yeast and so the slightest movement sends all the dead and flocculated cells -all the sediment that forms the lees- back into solution which is why Oskaar says that you must not touch the carboy. Again, there is not one sentence in the recipe that is redundant. When the fruit drops to the bottom enough of the CO2 has dissipated (degassed naturally) so all other things being equal you can bottle. If some or all the fruit is still floating there is too much CO2 in the mead to safely bottle with a cork. That gas can nucleate (because of other particles falling out of suspension) forcing the cork out and with it a stream of the mead that will rifle through the neck of the bottle, painting walls and ceilings.

WayneG
04-01-2017, 05:09 AM
Even in bottling there will be some disturbance of the solids, but I will be careful when bottling. I may use the mini jet pump to pull the mead out of the jug to minimize the problem. I am not too worried about bottle bombs. I make sure it is still and then use grolsch bottles. They may not be as good as champagne bottles but than beer bottles.

philodice
04-02-2017, 10:53 AM
I've decided to pitch a JAOM, by the book, no funny business. I'll get the Orange, bread yeast, and raisins later, and I'll tuck it into my brewing chamber right next to my 3 gallon carboy of traditional meticulous mead. I think the JAOM can be a learning experience, and based on the responses in this thread I should not miss out on it. I'll rack in about two months. However, I'm going to get some cheaper honey for it. All I've got now is the pricey stuff my friends have been gifting me. Mead loving Friends are a great source of supplies.

darigoni
04-02-2017, 10:59 AM
I've decided to pitch a JAOM, by the book, no funny business. I'll get the Orange, bread yeast, and raisins later, and I'll tuck it into my brewing chamber right next to my 3 gallon carboy of traditional meticulous mead. I think the JAOM can be a learning experience, and based on the responses in this thread I should not miss out on it. I'll rack in about two months. However, I'm going to get some cheaper honey for it. All I've got now is the pricey stuff my friends have been gifting me. Mead loving Friends are a great source of supplies.

I have friend, who's an accomplished mead maker. Both he and his wife LOVE the JAOM recipe. Enough so that he's makes it in 5 gallon batches!

philodice
04-15-2017, 02:53 PM
I pitched by by the book JAOM today. It is in the closet, and I'll see it in month or two.

WayneG
04-15-2017, 04:55 PM
I just bottled mine after 2 to 3 months, I lost track, I did not log anything. I just did the recipe as written and it it is very good.
I did not do a initial SG but when bottled it was about 1.030. If I had any complaint is that I think the orange peal left the mead with a bit too much of a bitter aftertaste