PDA

View Full Version : Make a plan, stick to the plan, improve the plan, repeat.



Trenchie
03-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Ok, Guys, you suggested posting a plan for critique. I've got a plan for my second project, below (1st project I posted in "ask this old house" thread). please provide insight, make suggestions, discuss mistakes, air disagreements with this "recipe". I don't have all the details, hoping that general terminology is sufficient and I'll offer any clarifications. I'll be using this plan in a 3rd project with more variety amongst the gal jugs,

I'm looking to understand the whole "meticulous" process with all the additives and efforts. I also want to impart that process's TLC onto a 'pitch and leave' batch with the intent to make it 'better'.


Thanks in advance.

-T

PS: this also got me thinking on how to cycle the batches/projects so that I get 12 gals a year. 6gal batches, staggered to start every 3-4months. or better yet ... how to plan so that I don't run dry.



--Recipe:
6qrts honey, 18quarts water, QA23 yeast, nutrients.

--target:
two similar semi sweet meads displaying the subtle differences in techniques. OG 1.100, FG 1.000.

--Technique:
mixed, 3gal meticulous and 3gal pitch-n-leave. MY rough TOSNA numbers are 3.2 grams per nutrient dose.

--execution:
pitch must in 6gal plastic bucket, ferment in two 3gal carboy, racked to 1 gal jug.

--the plan, Must and Pitch:
day 1 (8am): clean and sanitize everything that will be touched. get it all prepped and setup, everything at room temp (today is 68F).
hour 2 : mix honey in water with stirring. bring to SG of 1.100.
hour 3 : follow yeast instructions and pitch yeast (1 with nutrients like fermaid k, maybe nothing).
hour 4-7 : wait for krausen to subside slightly. take OG (expect 1.100?).
hour 8 : rack the 6gal bucket to two 3gal carboys and shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. (apply that bentonite/clearing stuff to 1 batch only)
hour 12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. I have a drill attached lee-stirr and a fishtank pump, that I can use together for 10 min usually.
hour 16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.

--the plan, ferment and rack:
day 2 (hour 24, 8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to 1 batch add TOSNA nutrient dose 1, stir adequatly.
day 2 hours 4,8,12,16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SP once.
day 3 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to 1 batch add TOSNA nutrient dose 2, stir adequatly.
day 3 hours 4,8,12,16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SP once.
day 4 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to 1 batch add TOSNA nutrient dose 3, stir adequatly.
day 4,5,6 every 4 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SP once.
day 7 : or SG decreases below 1.070 (1/3 sugar break). degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to 1 batch add TOSNA nutrient dose 4, stir adequatly.
day 7-14 : every 4 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SP once.
day 15-30 : every 6 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SP once.

--the plan, rack and consume/bottle:
day 31-? : when SP dips below 1.000, rack to 3gal carboys.
day 31-60 : daily degass as best possible. check SP 3 times weekly.
day 60-90 : 3 times weekly degass as best possible. check SP 3 times weekly.
day 90 : stabalize the 1 batch with sorbates and sulphats and whatever (still learning this additive stuff).
day 90 : stabalize the 2nd batch with cold crash.
day 93 : rack all of both batches it to 1 gal jugs. a1, a2, a3, b1, b2, b3.
day 92 : drink jug a3. add vanilla to b3. (vanilla not yet planned)
day 92 : place all jugs in consitent area (68F, no sunlight).
day 180 : drink jug a2 and b2. critique.
day 270 : drink/bottle jug a1.
day 360 : drink/bottle jug b1.
day 450 (1.5 years) drink b3, the vanilla gallon.

bernardsmith
03-12-2017, 02:21 PM
I ask this without any irony (I don't have an answer but am looking for one). You suggest to degas daily from day 31 -60. My question: why? The yeast is not producing any more CO2 at this point and presumably if you aerated during the active phase then you have been degassing. The yeast might be subject to both excessive pressure and increased acidity during the early phase but after a month I am not sure what problem the presence rather than the build-up of CO2 causes... My modus is IF I degas before I bottle to pull a vacuum of about 21 inches for about 20 minutes and remove all the CO2.

Dadux
03-12-2017, 03:33 PM
tbh and i dont mean to offend you, why do you bother trying pitch and leave? i mean, if you do want to learn the meticulous method and you know its better... If it is because its too much effort then make just 3 gals and the other 3 gals in two weeks/ a month when the original batch does not require much work.
Apart from that comment, lets see. You follow tosna, thats good. im assuming if you follow it you are using fermaid O right? just in case... if you dont, its not TOSNA. its your own SNA. and tell us how much you intend to add each time/total if youa re not suing fermaid O.
aereate for the first 3-5 days, the degass until fermentation is over. Dont bother writing the days, just do it once a day until it bubbles no more. After, just shake a bit to rouse the lees. no need to degass past end of ferment. No need to degass/aereate more than twice a day if you do it good. After the first two weeks just once a day its ok. So much chaking SP is unnecesary. just do it for the first few days, and when it slows down, once a week (if you feel like it, if you dont, doesnt matter)
30 days from pitch to rack is ok, but you might want to give it even more. like 40-50 days. depends how long the ferment takes to end. When it does give it at least 3 weeks. but you can have it 2 months no problem as long as you rouse the lees. and its even better. if you are in a hurry to bottle then by all means, go with your 30 days deadline. But dont do it when SG hits 1.000 (by the way i guess SP = SG, dunno, it confuses me a bit). Giving it at least 2 weeks since the ferment ends its good, and 4 or 6 weeks, ideal.
For the vanilla, 1 bean per gal in secondary is what you want. Also you might want to try backsweetening one of the gallons to see what you like more.

Overall, you got the idea right. making a plan is good. but dont be to strict with it. i mean, fermentations vary. Just go with what seems best or more adecuate at the time. Its good to think "im going to rakc in 30 days" but you also have to think "Why 30 days? why not 20 or 50?" So you see, its not so much about the day but about when you should rack. You should rack after the ferment is over and preferably a few weeks after it is over. So if that fits in 30 days, great. if not, change it.
Same with the next rackings. Just wait until it clears. might be 90 days might be 60 or 150. You get my point.

caduseus
03-12-2017, 03:48 PM
Don't mix yeast with fermaid k. If you can't use Go-ferm then use nothing

Either use TOSNA with fermaid o or TiOSNA with fermaid k

Once fermentation is done rouse the lees 2-4x/week for sur lie ageing

Trenchie
03-12-2017, 08:55 PM
I'll be revising this plan from the revelations. and I should have been more precise, I'll get that battoned down as well. but in the mean time, let me get to some questions:

(gotcha, need to nail down which ferm-XYZ product and when and doses).

my perspective on "Why 30 days? why not 20 or 50?" is based on my level of experience, at this stage, I need to stick with the science of it all. I'll be artistic later when I can blend the yeast character with the honey flavor and an ABV to make my toothless granny smile (LOL toofleth !).



You suggest to degas daily from day 31 -60. My question: why? The yeast is not producing any more CO2 at this point and presumably if you aerated during the active phase then you have been degassing.

I don't exactly know why. I'm pulling this from 'book knowledge' as I have gathered here, elsewhere and random goooglings. my first stance was after day 4 you don't touch it. after you rack off the lees, it's all waiting. how that position has changed where I've read that degassing is beneficial, even 30-60 days in.



tbh and i dont mean to offend you, why do you bother trying pitch and leave?

personally I tend away from chemical-anything, even if it has the "organic seal of approval" (organic is pretty loose these days). I'm trying to stay as close to a show mead as possible but I'm more than willing to learn the additive-side. I want to use those techniques and maybe some additives to benefit the 'pitch-leave' side. think of this as an anology of taking the best vegan dishes and making them better with a little bacon.


the vanilla has my curiosity, but I'm still gathering evidence. I may need to invade another thread but I'll not ignore it here.

SG ... SG ... SG ... SG ... not SP ... not SP ... not SP ... SG not SP ..... got it!

Dadux
03-13-2017, 06:20 AM
I'll be revising this plan from the revelations. and I should have been more precise, I'll get that battoned down as well. but in the mean time, let me get to some questions:

(gotcha, need to nail down which ferm-XYZ product and when and doses).

my perspective on "Why 30 days? why not 20 or 50?" is based on my level of experience, at this stage, I need to stick with the science of it all. I'll be artistic later when I can blend the yeast character with the honey flavor and an ABV to make my toothless granny smile (LOL toofleth !).




I don't exactly know why. I'm pulling this from 'book knowledge' as I have gathered here, elsewhere and random goooglings. my first stance was after day 4 you don't touch it. after you rack off the lees, it's all waiting. how that position has changed where I've read that degassing is beneficial, even 30-60 days in.




personally I tend away from chemical-anything, even if it has the "organic seal of approval" (organic is pretty loose these days). I'm trying to stay as close to a show mead as possible but I'm more than willing to learn the additive-side. I want to use those techniques and maybe some additives to benefit the 'pitch-leave' side. think of this as an anology of taking the best vegan dishes and making them better with a little bacon.


the vanilla has my curiosity, but I'm still gathering evidence. I may need to invade another thread but I'll not ignore it here.

SG ... SG ... SG ... SG ... not SP ... not SP ... not SP ... SG not SP ..... got it!

Boy this is going to be a long one ;D
Ok point for point.
Yes. Calculate your SNA before you start
The why 30 days thing is not about art. Im trying to make you understand that yeast know nothing about days. If you go "with the science" then dont imposeba deadline, specially if you dont have much experience with the yeast. If you do and know that in 30 days the ferment will be over great. If you dont, just wait until it does and leave it a couple extra weeks at least.

Degassing and aereation. You only need to do it twice a day for the first week, then once a day, if you do it good. So do it good, it pays up. After the fermentation is over and there is no more gas, you obviously cant degass...trying to do so will only increase the risk of spoilage. So dont. Once fermentation is over there is no need to degass, only shake a bit to rouse the lees (so they dont stay in the bottom all day)

Chemicals. Ok. Yoy are one of many reticient people about this. Nothing bad. But i feel you may have things a bit wrong. The "meticulous" side recommends chemicals at least some but its not necessary. The method is about taking the best care posible of the ferment. Keep it in a good temp range, out of sunlight, degass, aereate rehidrate...and yes using nutrients is nearly a must. But nutrients are usually part organic and get completely consumed by the yeast. Its not as other chemicals you add. You wont drink the nutrients. A show mead is a mead with only yeast, water and honey. But that does not mean you cant take proper care of it and degass aereate and all of the mentioned above, even some "nutrients" (boiled yeast is still yeast so it can be used in show meads and it provides nutrients). The pitch and leave is just that. Add all, put it in a corner, check in a month.
So you can do a show mead by both methods. If you want to try the pitch and leave great. Same if you want to do a show mead. If you do, we can give you some tips too. But its not the same, and the pitch and leave will always take longer to be good. Its easier too and takes less time. But of you have the time, going meticulous is always better.
My point is, as long as you understand what the differences are between the methods, do it however you want. You can even find a compromise between both.

About the information, many mead info is outdated so be careful. Since this is a mead site you will find the best here. Other forums and places have some good info too, not all is bad, but you need to be able to differenciate.

Vanilla is great. I recently did a vanilla-marshmallow mead and it smells too good to be true. Dont be afraid to add vanilla, it also combines great with nearly everything!

And in case it was not clear, SG stands for starting gravity, OG for original gravity, and FG for final gravity. Gravity = density.

If you have more questions or anything was not clear enough dont hesitate to ask. Hope this was helpful

Squatchy
03-13-2017, 01:01 PM
I would suggest not doing a show mead until you understand the basics. There are tons of things we can teach you to much improve a show mead. But it's way too much , (for me anyway) to teach a newbee with dry feet. Get your feet wet first and learn good management techniques.

What do you gain by making a mead we are all telling you will be much less desireable at the end of the day and take a year longer to do it?

Do you wanna struggle just for the sake of dragging old techniques around? Or do you want to enjoy something that taste great in short order?

This is both science and art at once. Don't make a plan based on a calendar and then feel you need to stick with it, even if it's clearly not in step with a living biomass. That's like saying you will have your kid riding a bicycle on his own when he gets to 28 months. And then get there only to find he's no where ready to even ride on training wheels.

We learn to "honor the yeast" and we become it's helper. Not it's dictator.

I wouldn't just instantly throw out all the chems in the process. You don't grow your own food and meat do you? Is your water from fresh underground springs? I'm not being mean or disrespectful here. But. Not all chems are detrimental to your health or to the end result of your mead. Nitrogen is the same as a organic farm using cow manure as fertilizer for your vegetables. You wouldn't want to buy a skinny ass desert cow from Nigeria if you could buy a grass feed cow from Montana would you?

I'm just using examples here to make a point. Not at all trying to dis you. Much the opposite. I want to help you make great mead. I'm sick and tired of tasting crappy mead all the time, when I know how spectacular mead can be. I just helped to judge the largest mead only competition in the world. It upset me when I tasted really bad stuff from professional meaderies time after time after time. I know we are all on a different part of the learning curve. But even as a brand new beginning mazer. With as much info and good people here to help teach the finer nuances of making good mead right from the start. There is no excuse any longer to not be able to at least make good mead. Great mead can only come with a better understanding of all of the finer nuances being dealt with.

Please learn from us and let us help you. I would say disregard much or most of what you have read elsewhere. Not saying it's all wrong. But a good chance is there is enough that is wrong with it that it will set you back to blindly follow it.

One of my saying around here is: "ask 10 mazers an answer and you'll get 15 different answers". And this is true. This is showing that mead is very resilient and there are many ways to skin a cat. But I can push away some of the double answers you would get, to help you get started. Once you understand a certain approach and the science and reasoning behind it, we can now add the other options and they will still make sense. It's at this place you can then start to play and find your very own, personal approach that works for you and have the understanding why you do what you do.

It's great to have a plan. But a good plan requires understanding. An even better plan will allow the freedom to recognize a timing variable to allow the different pieces of the plan to be implemented when the yeast ask for it and not when your "plan" tells you so :)

There should be a reason why we do every little aspect of science and why we add every adjunct to our flavor profile. Along with when we do it. If you can't say "why" you are doing what you are doing. You better ask yourself what the hell am I dong this for. This should either make you reconsider your plan or send you to the library to find out what the underlying reason is for doing it.

As beginner. We tend to do way to much without a real understanding of why we do it. And Our meads show it. The hardest part. And the finer part is finding excellence in simplicity. The better meads usually show the intention of the maker and is not cluttered up with a bunch of messy distractions. One thing that took me a long time to capture as a musician is that silence is a note. WHen I got enough to be a lead player, I tried to shove as many notes and tricks into a certain amount of bars as I could. When I grew up I realized I wasn't saying anything. I was just blabbering. I learned to scat (sing the solo at the same time) so that my playing would start to sound like communicating. WHen I got better at that I learned if I am to communicate. I need to leave space for you to respond. Otherwise it's only a monolog, and not communication. I'm getting off course but I'm feeling the muse here. So bare with me.

I learned to read music as a young child and played several different instruments. When I became a teen I taught myself to play guitar. I new enough to catch on really quickly and became pretty good. I learned to play by ear and understood the "math science" of music well enough to do quite well. But, in the music world I was called a "player". I was know to be a "good player". But I was not a musician in the truest sense of the word. The "real musicians" new the math, so to speak and had, and always will have a huge advantage over me. I new enough of "progression probability" and the "nashville number system" I could go anywhere and sit in with other players. As long as I was familiar with the phrasing styles of the different types of juaneras (sp).

The real guys were not limited like I was. That's why I'm not a touring musician or a union card holder.

So what I'm trying to say is take the time to understand the science. Know the different pieces (they all need to be employed all the time) or you will suffer from your lack of knowledge. Once you have a working understanding. You will never need to ask or seek a "recipe" and you will be able to see faults in other peoples "plan". This is where the real fun begins. It;s not really that hard. And you can get there in pretty short order if you have patience, are teachable, andopen minded enough to learn from others. Who might be just a half page in front of you :)

I hope this helps as well.

Trenchie
03-14-2017, 08:57 PM
I appreciate all the input, my plan continues to form. and yes I do know the art-science going on here is more yeast honoring than anythying else. and when it comes to the 'chemicals', I guess I'm not gonna argue with stuff that won't be in the final product. I'll leverage nutrients but i'll prefer away from the wiz-bang stuff added for convenience. I do wish to use those things (bentonite, clarifiers, sorbates, sulphates, whatever) and understand them and be able to work with 'em.
this is project #2 and still in the planning stage, as we are discussing here. recognize I wish to hold onto the oldschool (pitch-leave+TLC) with 3gals and TOSNA up the other 3. And as a 'maz-scientist', I have future plans for ptoject #3, based on 1 and 2. I think that will be when I really start to learn as I move to leverage the process's to take advantage of flavoring characteristics. I'll have 6 gallons with which to explore new stuff.


Boy this is going to be a long one ;D
A show mead is a mead with only yeast, water and honey. But that does not mean you cant take proper care of it and degass aereate and all of the mentioned above, even some "nutrients" (boiled yeast is still yeast so it can be used in show meads and it provides nutrients). The pitch and leave is just that. Add all, put it in a corner, check in a month.
So you can do a show mead by both methods. But of you have the time, going meticulous is always better.
My point is, as long as you understand what the differences are between the methods, do it however you want. You can even find a compromise between both.
Thanks Dadux for the input, I have plenty of time. like a show mead, i'm aged and need to sit for a few more years. I only recently discovered the terms "meticulous" and "pitch-leave" and I think I'm striving for the middle ground. and so in this plan I submitted, I am working just that, flexing both methods with the deviations to learn me some knowledge. basically they both start with the same must and one is 'pitched aside' (lol new method name), the other made queen bee.


I would suggest not doing a show mead until you understand the basics. Get your feet wet first and learn good management techniques.
What do you gain by making a mead we are all telling you will be much less desireable at the end of the day and take a year longer to do it?
Do you wanna struggle just for the sake of dragging old techniques around? Or do you want to enjoy something that taste great in short order?
This is both science and art at once.
I appreciate your suggestion Squatchy and it's the basics I'm working towards, or so I thought. to me a show mead is the basics ... right... honey, water, yeast, time (maybe some TLC). someplace I read that one should master the basics first. I want to try a lot of things and I thought adding some vannilla was way more extreme than avoiding tosna in my strive for basic. AND, i'm going all out on one 3gal batch to go just where you're leading.
the plan is to submit two batches to dissimilar treachment. effectivley one will get tosna and one will get "kinda-pitch-leave-ish". my feet are wet, rather sticky now that I'm 6 gallons into a frankentstien "pitch-meteculiousoly-leave". I'm prepping myself for another 2x3gal batch, where I learn (experience) more, inclunding managment techniques (which is easy, cause I'm really "detailed" otherwise).

I think, like bumper pool, I'll get there. so after this snowstorm, I'll post the improved plan.

-T

Squatchy
03-14-2017, 10:05 PM
You probably read from something I wrote to l;earn to do trads first. I say that all the time. But doing a show mead successfully is quite different and requires a lot more understanding over and above the "basics"

Dadux
03-15-2017, 04:37 AM
If your choice is to try both methods after reading what we posted then go ahead. As long as you know where you are going into, its ok.
Additions in secondary are done all the time. Vanilla is one of the favourite spices. At some points you might want to make a lot of little gallon batches and try things on them. Fruit, different spices, herbs...maybe that can be your project #3.

But while trads are good for learning, show meads are much harder. If making mead was the equivalent of crossing a desert, show meads would be like crossing a desert without food and water. Its like the hardcore cousin of traditional meads.

Anyway, get back to us with the remade plan and when you do please tell us what brand of nutrients you are gonna use and how much you intend to use.

Trenchie
03-15-2017, 04:54 PM
the plan has been finessed and stands here. I've shy'd away from the 2-types in this project and I'm going to work the flavoring more post fermentation, TOSNA all the way, additives too. And again please provide insight, make suggestions, discuss mistakes, air disagreements with this "recipe".

--recipe:
6qrts honey, 18quarts water, Lalvin QA23 yeast, dry packet. bentonite, go-ferm, fermaid-o, sorbates.

note:LALVIN QA 23 YSEO yeast is best stirred into a 10:1 must/water mixture at 95 – 104 °F (35 – 40 °C),
stirred again after approximately 15 minutes and added to the must.

--target:
6gal semi sweet mead with OG 1.100, FG 1.000, to be split into gallons for other treatments.

--technique:
meticulous using TOSNA with go-ferm start and fermaid-o nutrients.

note: per yeast instructioms, go ferm amount is really negligle, maybe 1.25 gram go-ferm to a cup of water and then some measurement for 10:1 for yeast instructions for about a quart of fluid used to rehydrate yeast.
TOSNA nutrient addition per 3gal is 2.7grams fermaid-o: (IS x N x BS) / 50 = TFO ... (236 x .75 x 6) / 50 = 21.24 ... ( 21.24 / 4 ) = 5.31 ... 5.31 / 2 = 2.7
using a drill attached lee-stirr and a fishtank pump, that I can use together for aeration/stirring.

--execution:
pitch must in 7.8gal plastic bucket. rack to, then ferment and feed in two 3gal carboy, rack to 1 gal jug and try some flavors.

--the plan, Must and Pitch:
day 1 (8am): clean and sanitize everything that will be touched. get it all prepped and setup, everything at room temp (today is 68F).
hour 2 : mix honey in water with stirring. bring to SG of 1.100.
hour 3 : follow yeast instructions and pitch yeast (go-ferm may not be needed with this yeast, as a dosagewould be so low).
hour 4-7 : wait for krausen to subside slightly. take OG (expect 1.100?). apply bentonite. (need to get the is under wraps)
hour 8 : rack the 6gal bucket to two 3gal carboys and shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. (apply that bentonite/clearing stuff to batch A only)
hour 12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.
hour 16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.

--the plan, ferment and rack:
day 2 (hour 24, 8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 1, stir adequatly.
day 2 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 3 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 2, stir adequatly.
day 3 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 4 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 3, stir adequatly.
day 4,5,6 every 8 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG day 4,6.
day 7 : or SG decreases below 1.070 (1/3 sugar break). degass/stir them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 4, stir adequatly.
day 7-14 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 9,14.
day 15-30 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 20,25,30.

--the plan, rack and consume/bottle:
day 31-90 : check SG weekly.
day 31-? : when SG dips below 1.000, rack to 3gal carboys.
day 60-? : test PH, stabalize with cold crash, add sorbates and sulphats or whatever (36ml per 3gal, still learning this additive stuff).
day 90-? : rack all of both batches it to 1 gal jugs.
day ?-91 : flavor a few jugs, back sweeten one, drop some oak in one ... try some other stuff. (vanilla being planned)
day 92 : place all jugs in consitent area (68F, no sunlight).
day 92+ : consume.

caduseus
03-15-2017, 05:56 PM
the plan has been finessed and stands here. I've shy'd away from the 2-types in this project and I'm going to work the flavoring more post fermentation, TOSNA all the way, additives too. And again please provide insight, make suggestions, discuss mistakes, air disagreements with this "recipe".

--recipe:
6qrts honey, 18quarts water, Lalvin QA23 yeast, dry packet. bentonite, go-ferm, fermaid-o, sorbates.

note:LALVIN QA 23 YSEO yeast is best stirred into a 10:1 must/water mixture at 95 – 104 °F (35 – 40 °C),
stirred again after approximately 15 minutes and added to the must.

--target:
6gal semi sweet mead with OG 1.100, FG 1.000, to be split into gallons for other treatments.

--technique:
meticulous using TOSNA with go-ferm start and fermaid-o nutrients.

note: per yeast instructioms, go ferm amount is really negligle, maybe 1.25 gram go-ferm to a cup of water and then some measurement for 10:1 for yeast instructions for about a quart of fluid used to rehydrate yeast.
TOSNA nutrient addition per 3gal is 2.7grams fermaid-o: (IS x N x BS) / 50 = TFO ... (236 x .75 x 6) / 50 = 21.24 ... ( 21.24 / 4 ) = 5.31 ... 5.31 / 2 = 2.7
using a drill attached lee-stirr and a fishtank pump, that I can use together for aeration/stirring.

--execution:
pitch must in 7.8gal plastic bucket. rack to, then ferment and feed in two 3gal carboy, rack to 1 gal jug and try some flavors.

--the plan, Must and Pitch:
day 1 (8am): clean and sanitize everything that will be touched. get it all prepped and setup, everything at room temp (today is 68F).
hour 2 : mix honey in water with stirring. bring to SG of 1.100.
hour 3 : follow yeast instructions and pitch yeast (go-ferm may not be needed with this yeast, as a dosagewould be so low).
hour 4-7 : wait for krausen to subside slightly. take OG (expect 1.100?). apply bentonite. (need to get the is under wraps)
hour 8 : rack the 6gal bucket to two 3gal carboys and shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. (apply that bentonite/clearing stuff to batch A only)
hour 12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.
hour 16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.

--the plan, ferment and rack:
day 2 (hour 24, 8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 1, stir adequatly.
day 2 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 3 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 2, stir adequatly.
day 3 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 4 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 3, stir adequatly.
day 4,5,6 every 8 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG day 4,6.
day 7 : or SG decreases below 1.070 (1/3 sugar break). degass/stir them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 4, stir adequatly.
day 7-14 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 9,14.
day 15-30 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 20,25,30.

--the plan, rack and consume/bottle:
day 31-90 : check SG weekly.
day 31-? : when SG dips below 1.000, rack to 3gal carboys.
day 60-? : test PH, stabalize with cold crash, add sorbates and sulphats or whatever (36ml per 3gal, still learning this additive stuff).
day 90-? : rack all of both batches it to 1 gal jugs.
day ?-91 : flavor a few jugs, back sweeten one, drop some oak in one ... try some other stuff. (vanilla being planned)
day 92 : place all jugs in consitent area (68F, no sunlight).
day 92+ : consume.

For your honey measurements we usually go by weight (pounds/kg) as there are both fluid and weight ounces which can get confusing. So can you please specify the amount in kg or pounds?

Sorry I Don't use metric. MY calculations for fermaid-O was 1.44 tsp for 6 gallons-> round up to 1.5 tsp. I don't know the conversion to grams but seems like it would be more than what you are using. Go-ferm is 2.5pounds/1000gallons or 0.24 tsp/gallon

Once fermentation is done, I would stir every other day for the first 30 days until you choose to rack. The longer you wait to rack the more sur-lie ageing you can have:
pp 40-42: http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf


Based on the quantity of must if your yeast packet is 5 grams, then you will need two packets.

I didn't check your TOSNA math

Overall it looks good otherwise.

Dadux
03-15-2017, 06:36 PM
the plan has been finessed and stands here. I've shy'd away from the 2-types in this project and I'm going to work the flavoring more post fermentation, TOSNA all the way, additives too. And again please provide insight, make suggestions, discuss mistakes, air disagreements with this "recipe".

--recipe:
6qrts honey, 18quarts water, Lalvin QA23 yeast, dry packet. bentonite, go-ferm, fermaid-o, sorbates.

note:LALVIN QA 23 YSEO yeast is best stirred into a 10:1 must/water mixture at 95 – 104 °F (35 – 40 °C),
stirred again after approximately 15 minutes and added to the must.

--target:
6gal semi sweet mead with OG 1.100, FG 1.000, to be split into gallons for other treatments.

--technique:
meticulous using TOSNA with go-ferm start and fermaid-o nutrients.

note: per yeast instructioms, go ferm amount is really negligle, maybe 1.25 gram go-ferm to a cup of water and then some measurement for 10:1 for yeast instructions for about a quart of fluid used to rehydrate yeast.
TOSNA nutrient addition per 3gal is 2.7grams fermaid-o: (IS x N x BS) / 50 = TFO ... (236 x .75 x 6) / 50 = 21.24 ... ( 21.24 / 4 ) = 5.31 ... 5.31 / 2 = 2.7
using a drill attached lee-stirr and a fishtank pump, that I can use together for aeration/stirring.

--execution:
pitch must in 7.8gal plastic bucket. rack to, then ferment and feed in two 3gal carboy, rack to 1 gal jug and try some flavors.

--the plan, Must and Pitch:
day 1 (8am): clean and sanitize everything that will be touched. get it all prepped and setup, everything at room temp (today is 68F).
hour 2 : mix honey in water with stirring. bring to SG of 1.100.
hour 3 : follow yeast instructions and pitch yeast (go-ferm may not be needed with this yeast, as a dosagewould be so low).
hour 4-7 : wait for krausen to subside slightly. take OG (expect 1.100?). apply bentonite. (need to get the is under wraps)
hour 8 : rack the 6gal bucket to two 3gal carboys and shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. (apply that bentonite/clearing stuff to batch A only)
hour 12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.
hour 16 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible.

--the plan, ferment and rack:
day 2 (hour 24, 8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 1, stir adequatly.
day 2 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 3 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 2, stir adequatly.
day 3 hours 4,12 : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG once daily.
day 4 (8am) : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 3, stir adequatly.
day 4,5,6 every 8 waking hours : degass/shake/stir/aerate them as best possible. check SG day 4,6.
day 7 : or SG decreases below 1.070 (1/3 sugar break). degass/stir them as best possible. to each 3gal add TOSNA nutrient 2.7g dose 4, stir adequatly.
day 7-14 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 9,14.
day 15-30 : every 8 waking hours : degass/stir them as best possible. check SG day 20,25,30.

--the plan, rack and consume/bottle:
day 31-90 : check SG weekly.
day 31-? : when SG dips below 1.000, rack to 3gal carboys.
day 60-? : test PH, stabalize with cold crash, add sorbates and sulphats or whatever (36ml per 3gal, still learning this additive stuff).
day 90-? : rack all of both batches it to 1 gal jugs.
day ?-91 : flavor a few jugs, back sweeten one, drop some oak in one ... try some other stuff. (vanilla being planned)
day 92 : place all jugs in consitent area (68F, no sunlight).
day 92+ : consume.

Step by step:
-By that ammount of honey you will get more like 1.110 SG. thats ok. Just saying
-An FG of 1.000 is not semisweet. the categories are as follow: dry: 0.990-1.010, semisweet: 1.010-1.020. sweet: 1.020-1.030. Dessert: 1.030+
This are just guidelines however. But you might want to aim to 1.010 for semisweet. That, with your current recipe, can only be done stabilizing with sulphites and sorbate (at least the only way to do it correctly and riskless).
-You said you had sorbate but not sulphites. Typo-slip? You need sulphites to stabilize. Just a friendly reminder.
-Go-ferm is NOT neglible. This is because you dont add it to the must, but to the rehidration water. That means that 1.25 grams is actually a high concentration (since you will be dissolving it in 50ml of water). And if you use 2 packets (recommended) you should use 2.5g in 100ml of water. The effect of goferm happens during rehidration, not during the fermentation
-The TOSNA additions are a total of 2.7g of O per 3 gals. its a correct calculation. just pointing out, its 2.7g TOTAL. so thats 2.7/4=0.7 grams (rounding up) PER ADDITION, since you do 4 additions.
-What are your bucket/vessels made of? and what product are you gonna use to sanitize? Sanitize =/= cleaning
-If you intend to put 3 gals in a 3 gal vessel, you are gonna do some real mess. Most fermentations foam a lot, specially at early stages and when degassed. If you fill the vessel up to the total volume, you are gonna paint your cealing with must. That and/or you are gonna take ages degassing, probably. Granted that i never used a drill-attached stirrer, so i might not be 100% correct here.
-Degass VERY WELL PRIOR adding nutrients, or superfoam volcanoes are assured.
-At day 4 and more you wont need to aereate, and you only need to degass once or twice a day. I speak from experience. Just started a batch 80h ago, at 1.110 and its already at 1.055. You only aereate during the first 1/3 of the ferment.
-SMELL YOUR MEAD. it will give you an idea about how it goes. seems silly to say, but belive me its not. You will end up knowing when a ferment is going good or bad just by nose
-as i said previously, and i keep`saying in all the threads, when the SG is constant you want to leave the mead on the lees for a while. just in case, another reminder.
-"sulphats or whatever (36ml per 3 gal....)" 36ml of what? im asking because both sorbate and sulphites are in powder form, and are measured in grams...
-If your ferment goes well it might be ready in 90 days. But i would not put my money there. All im saying is keep an open mind. And if you leave them 9 months they will be even better, so at least save some so you can see how it ages.
-I dont see Bottling anywhere.

Well thats about it for comments, i hope it helps you.
And please, remember we complain a lot but most of what you posted is good, and much better that what we are used to see (i kinda feel bad posting everything i see wrong/improvable, when what you are doing its hella decent in my opinion). So dont get beat up or anything. We didnt (or at least I didnt) do stuff well the first time. Nor the second. And its good to see that you take it with interest. That is very important if you want to take up meadmaking as a hobby or a work. Keep it up Trenchie!

*Fun side note: Caduseus is right, we usually use weight, but not everyone! what you are doing is something in Poland is called Czwórniak, a mead with 1 part honey and 3 parts water. In there (home of the best ancient meads of the world) they have been measuring it in volume for a long long time! (and this lets you calculate the gravity preeeetty easily. Assuming you have good quality honey, it should have a density of or very near of 1.440 kg/L (honey varies between 1.420-1.440). so, 6 units x 1.440 =8.64. +18 from the water = 26.64. 26.64/24(total volume)= 1.11. which should be your gravity or very close ;D

Trenchie
03-15-2017, 07:22 PM
For your honey measurements we usually go by weight (pounds/kg) as there are both fluid and weight ounces which can get confusing. So can you please specify the amount in kg or pounds?
Sorry I Don't use metric. MY calculations for fermaid-O was 1.44 tsp for 6 gallons-> round up to 1.5 tsp. I don't know the conversion to grams but seems like it would be more than what you are using. Go-ferm is 2.5pounds/1000gallons or 0.24 tsp/gallon
Once fermentation is done, I would stir every other day for the first 30 days until you choose to rack. The longer you wait to rack the more sur-lie ageing you can have:
pp 40-42: http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf
Based on the quantity of must if your yeast packet is 5 grams, then you will need two packets.
I didn't check your TOSNA math. Overall it looks good otherwise.

thanks for the input and some reassurance. my target is the SG, and 1 quart honey is around 3lbs. this plan is calling out 18lbs of honey to make a 6gal must at 1.100.

the TOSNA calculations I found went with total fermaid used in grams. the basic effectiveness of the stuff seems to be around .75g to 1.25g per gallon based on yeast nutrient needs. going with a short stretch of imagination, 1 gram is probably around .25tsp (teaspoon). until I can get this stuff and weigh it, lets say my 5.3g/6gal is equivilent to the suggested 1.5tsp, adjusted for my yeast nutrient need.

with go-ferm, I found For every 1 kg (2.2 lb) Go-Ferm, use approximately 5 gallons of water. in the yeast prep I'll use 1/2 cup of that go ferm mixture with 5 cup must per the yeast instructions. that's something like 12.5g or .44oz go-ferm per cup water (of which i'll only use half). is that "negligible"?

Dadux
03-15-2017, 07:42 PM
with go-ferm, I found For every 1 kg (2.2 lb) Go-Ferm, use approximately 5 gallons of water. in the yeast prep I'll use 1/2 cup of that go ferm mixture with 5 cup must per the yeast instructions. that's something like 12.5g or .44oz go-ferm per cup water (of which i'll only use half). is that "negligible"?

I think you calculations are a bit off here.
http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/59/YeastRehydration_Lallemand.pdf
Thats the official document.
Use 1.25 grams of goferm per gram of yeast. use 25 ml of water per gram of yeast.
Goferm is not negligible.

Trenchie
03-15-2017, 08:12 PM
Thanks Dadux, the input is much appreciated. i'm gonna revisit my numbers and "instructions" and touch on the plan with you suggestions. any answers will come shortly as I think this through.

-T