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Kody_Wulfe
03-21-2017, 08:19 PM
Good Afternoon All,

Hope everyone is well...

I have very simple Mead.... just water, honey and yeast that I cannot get clear... it looks like non strained apple juice.. the other I made at the same time... cleared wonderfully...

I have tried Bentonite and Isnglass but to no avail.. even tried cold crashing.. anyone have thoughts???

Thanks,

Kody

darigoni
03-21-2017, 09:06 PM
You need to give us more details. What time frame are you talking about? Recipe? Yeast? Nutrients?

dingurth
03-21-2017, 10:02 PM
Yes, please provide more details.

It's odd that both bentonite and isinglass didn't work. How did you add the bentonite? Simply dumping it in won't work.

Most clearing agents work based on ionic charges. Bentonite has a negative charge and will therefore pull positive charged particles out of the must, while isinglass has a positive charge and will pull negative charges out... so that should have covered all your bases. That's why it's so odd if you added the bentonite correctly.

This could well be a hail mary, but I have had 2 meads clear after being warmed up slightly. Nothing crazy, just my apt got to like 80-85 degrees and I noticed it cleared up a bit. But that might be a last resort. Please do share the details. :)

Kody_Wulfe
03-21-2017, 11:43 PM
I apologize, I am still new at forums.. details.. details... I always forget something....

1 gallon spring water
5 pounds honey
1 tsp Acid Blend
1 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1 tsp Yeast nutrient
1 tsp Energizer
tsp Tannin
D47 Yeast – 1 package

tsp Potassium Sorbate at end of fermentation to make sure it completed.

I did forget to take a SG.. so cannot help there... I will in the future...

Bentonite, little less then 1/2 tsp in half a cup of hot water... kept it shaken up for 12+ hours.... let it set for a week.. nothing...

Isinglass, I eyeballed 1/6 of the packet... no one answered about if it could be stored after it was opened, so I threw the remainder out... added it and stirred like crazy... its been about a week for that as well...

Cold crashed it for 72 hours between the treatments...

Now, I know this is my first 2 batches of mead... and I am by far way worse then everyone else here...

Both batches were brewed at the same time... same everything.. one cleared all by its self.. this one is being a pain..

Sorry for not being more descriptive....

How long can a packet of Isinglass meant for 6 gallons be stored in a lock air tight container?

Kody

caduseus
03-21-2017, 11:54 PM
I apologize, I am still new at forums.. details.. details... I always forget something....

1 gallon spring water
5 pounds honey
1 tsp Acid Blend
1 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1 tsp Yeast nutrient
1 tsp Energizer
tsp Tannin
D47 Yeast – 1 package

tsp Potassium Sorbate at end of fermentation to make sure it completed.

I did forget to take a SG.. so cannot help there... I will in the future...

Bentonite, little less then 1/2 tsp in half a cup of hot water... kept it shaken up for 12+ hours.... let it set for a week.. nothing...

Isinglass, I eyeballed 1/6 of the packet... no one answered about if it could be stored after it was opened, so I threw the remainder out... added it and stirred like crazy... its been about a week for that as well...

Cold crashed it for 72 hours between the treatments...

Now, I know this is my first 2 batches of mead... and I am by far way worse then everyone else here...

Both batches were brewed at the same time... same everything.. one cleared all by its self.. this one is being a pain..

Sorry for not being more descriptive....

Kody

1) Have you read the newbie guide on here? It would clear up some techniques issues you have
2) NEVER ever add acid upfront. This is not a wine it is a mead. If anything you need to add an acid buffer (potassium carbonate/bicarbonate) rather than an acid upfront. Some dont do this as it is debatable if necessary. But NOT adding acid upfront is not debatable. This affects the yeast and fermentation
3) Dont use yeast nutrient/DAP. Yeast energizer/fermaid-K or Fermaid-o is preferred
4) Hydrometer! Hydrometer! Hydrometer! Check before pitch and periodically
5) Always add bentonite to the must BEFORE pitch. It helps clear better that way
6) Did you stir at least twice a day the first 3 days and at least once a day thereafter until fermentation was over?
7) How long after fermentation was over did you rack? It clears better if you do this: 1) stir every other day at least 30 days after fermentation is over (by hydrometer not bubbles); 2) Let it sit for 3-7 days (preferably at least some of that time in the fridge) but this could take up to 2 weeks in some cases; 3) THEN RACK

This will not only help you clear your mead but will decrease your ageing time. Your mead will need time to age (6 months minimum but up to 2 years) because of the problems above i mentioned.

dingurth
03-22-2017, 12:33 AM
Responses below:

I apologize, I am still new at forums.. details.. details... I always forget something....

1 gallon spring water
5 pounds honey
1 tsp Acid Blend
1 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1 tsp Yeast nutrient
1 tsp Energizer
tsp Tannin
D47 Yeast – 1 package
One more thing to add: you don't need to use pectin enzyme here. You only need to add that if you're using fruit since fruit has pectin. Even then its not always necessary and some pectin haze will clear on its own. But for a traditional, it's useless.


tsp Potassium Sorbate at end of fermentation to make sure it completed.

I did forget to take a SG.. so cannot help there... I will in the future...

Bentonite, little less then 1/2 tsp in half a cup of hot water... kept it shaken up for 12+ hours.... let it set for a week.. nothing...

Sounds like you did the right thing. Caduseus is right though that it can be better at aiding clearing when added at the start of the process rather than the end. It's possible it didn't quite have the necessary effect, so you could try another negatively charged clearer: https://winemakermag.com/26-a-clearer-understanding-of-fining-agents

One that I didn't see on that list but has been recommended on other threads and my LHBS: https://www.amazon.com/1-X-Super-Kleer-KC-Finings/dp/B0064O9DIQ
I believe it works in 2 stages, one a positive charge, the other negative, to clear, but I haven't used it myself.

Isinglass, I eyeballed 1/6 of the packet... no one answered about if it could be stored after it was opened, so I threw the remainder out... added it and stirred like crazy... its been about a week for that as well...

Cold crashed it for 72 hours between the treatments...

Now, I know this is my first 2 batches of mead... and I am by far way worse then everyone else here...
Not worse, just new. :)
We were all in your shoes once. Being eager to learn is good. While there are certainly improvements you can make, you've started out on a better foot than I did.

Both batches were brewed at the same time... same everything.. one cleared all by its self.. this one is being a pain..
If you used the same yeast, did you make sure to ferment it at or very near the same temperature? D47 can be very finicky about its temperature and it prefers to stay cooler. If it fermented warmer, it might not have been as happy, and how a yeast ferments can certainly contribute to how it clears.

Sorry for not being more descriptive....

How long can a packet of Isinglass meant for 6 gallons be stored in a lock air tight container?
Sorry, no idea on this one. I think the one time I used it for a 1gal batch I did the same as you and tossed the rest.

I'm still not 100% clear on your timeline. For how long after fermentation ended did you let it sit/when did you try to start manually clearing it? It's fine to let it age with stuff in suspension, and it can sometimes take a few months for it to clear on its own. As far as I know, I think most people only try to force it clear once its closer to bottling time. My gut, with the information you've provided, is telling me you might have tried to make it clear too soon which won't always work.

Besides that, you've now been introduced to the fact that every mead is it's own beast. ;)
As your mead making experience grows, you'll see people using oxygenation setups, temp control units, amongst other things, all in an attempt to be as precise as possible to get 100% repeatable results. Until that point, sometimes you just have to wrangle it as best you can.

Dadux
03-22-2017, 04:55 AM
I apologize, I am still new at forums.. details.. details... I always forget something....

1 gallon spring water
5 pounds honey
1 tsp Acid Blend
1 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1 tsp Yeast nutrient
1 tsp Energizer
tsp Tannin
D47 Yeast – 1 package

tsp Potassium Sorbate at end of fermentation to make sure it completed.

I did forget to take a SG.. so cannot help there... I will in the future...

Bentonite, little less then 1/2 tsp in half a cup of hot water... kept it shaken up for 12+ hours.... let it set for a week.. nothing...

Isinglass, I eyeballed 1/6 of the packet... no one answered about if it could be stored after it was opened, so I threw the remainder out... added it and stirred like crazy... its been about a week for that as well...

Cold crashed it for 72 hours between the treatments...

Now, I know this is my first 2 batches of mead... and I am by far way worse then everyone else here...

Both batches were brewed at the same time... same everything.. one cleared all by its self.. this one is being a pain..

Sorry for not being more descriptive....

How long can a packet of Isinglass meant for 6 gallons be stored in a lock air tight container?

Kody

Well dont worry Kody. I will go over your recipe first then go to clarifying ok?

First, acid, what caduseus said. Instead add 2 grams (1/4 tsp) of potassium bicarbonate. That helps the pH stay stable.

Pectic enzime. What was said.
Nutrient and energizer. Check what is their composition before using again.

Tannin. Go search here. This might be what is causing you problems if you added too much.

Nobody said this and it worries me A LOT. POTASSIUM SORBATE IS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ADDED WITH OR AFTER SULPHITES. I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. GO ADD THEM ASAP. ALSO ITS ALWAYS ADDED AFTER RACKING AT LEAST ONCE. Sorry, but its super important. If you do this wrong you might end up with a shitton of geraniol. Guess what that tastes like? Yeah, geraniums.

Bentonite: you used it well but maybe it was not enough. Go search for ammounts. Bentonite prior pitching is added to help remove the yeast. After fermentation is used to remove proteins and other positive charged particles. So you did nothing wrong.

Now i need you to answer a few questions.

When did you start the batch? When did it finish ferment? Have you racked? How many times? When was the last? Did you have yeast sediment? Have you backsweetened? Is there CO2 in the mead (bubbles)? Have you racked after using bentonite? And issinglass? Did you have sediment in any of the cases?
Edit: answer point 6 of caduseus about stirring the lees

Why do i need the info? Well because we need to know ehy is not clear. Is it tannins? Yeast cells? Proteins? Or even the isinglass?
You need to read how long the issinglass takes to work. Some clarifying agents take up to a month. And before they are done the mead can be cloudy.
For the isinglass storage go read the product desceiption from the manufacturer. I cant tell you since i have never used it.

And i think you used too little bentonite, and waited too little to add the isinglass. They have opposite charges so if you didnt rack between using each, the result might have been the isinglass binded to bentonite and none did work because they countered themselves.

When you answer the questions i can probably tell you how to solve your problem more specifically.
Hope this helped a bit and dont fret it we all make mistakes

caduseus
03-22-2017, 08:44 AM
Bentonite: you used it well but maybe it was not enough. Go search for ammounts. Bentonite prior pitching is added to help remove the yeast. After fermentation is used to remove proteins and other positive charged particles. So you did nothing wrong.


http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf

Page 58: Bentonite does remove protein as well.

Masbustelo
03-22-2017, 08:58 AM
Maybe I missed it but what is the time element in all of the above? My advice would be to set it away for three or four months. Quit messing with it, make some more and forget about it for awhile. Then make some more. Rinse and repreat.

Dadux
03-22-2017, 09:08 AM
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf

Page 58: Bentonite does remove protein as well.

The rate of bentonite for protein removal is higher than what is used at the start of the fermentation for yeast suspension. The ammount you use at the start might be enough to remove some protein but so are the yeast cells. And once you rack it if you backsweeten you remove the bentonite so...
Bentonite removes proteins since proteins are positevely charged and bentonite is negative. Tannins and yeast cells are negative too. Thats why rousing the lees helps clear the mead because the cells will bind proteins that cause haze and remove it.

bernardsmith
03-22-2017, 09:09 AM
I guess my somewhat ironic question is ... what is there to clear? If you are fermenting fruits or are fermenting on nuts and the like there may be all kinds of proteins and particles that form hazes and which remain suspended until they are brought down to the bottom of the carboy through gravity alone or with the help of fining agents. But doesn't honey ferment clear? What varietal of honey did you use? Although I guess the particles could be coming from the tannins you added.
That said, there be enough CO2 absorbed by the mead to keep any particulates suspended despite your use of positively charged and negatively charged finings? If you haven't yet, you might want to try degassing (removing the CO2). The best way to do this (in my opinion) is to create a vacuum (about 21 or 22 inches is good) using a pump and this vacuum will pull all the CO2 absorbed by the liquid to the surface.

Dadux
03-22-2017, 09:12 AM
I guess my somewhat ironic question is ... what is there to clear? If you are fermenting fruits or are fermenting on nuts and the like there may be all kinds of proteins and particles that form hazes and which remain suspended until they are brought down to the bottom of the carboy through gravity alone or with the help of fining agents. But doesn't honey ferment clear? What varietal of honey did you use?
Also, might there be enough CO2 absorbed by the mead to keep any particulates suspended despite your use of positively charged and negatively charged finings? If you haven't yet, you might want to try degassing (removing the CO2). The best way to do this (in my opinion) is to create a vacuum (about 21 or 22 inches is good) using a pump and this vacuum will pull all the CO2 absorbed by the liquid to the surface.

Thats why i asked about the bubbles and the racking. Before fining you need to know what causes the haze
And for what he posted its a traditional with tannins added

Kody_Wulfe
03-23-2017, 07:16 PM
I did replay that I have read the newbie guide.. even printed it out.. not sure why it did not post...

Is anyone else having problems getting into the forums?????

Kody