Wyeast 4184 lees

budgies · Dec 11, 2017

Hello goodfolk of the forum. Several months ago I had some very helpful feedback on my peach mead. I moved it to bulk aging in September and added some oak cubes out of a grape wine that had been inoculated with a malolactic culture. A malolactic fermentation in the peach mead is desirable to me, but I'm not sure if the cubes were enough to transmit the culture. The cubes were about a 1/2 ounce of dark toast American oak, and I will soon be adding about an ounce of medium toast Hungarian to do some layering. At any rate, the mead has some lovely flavour but is still green and rough around the edges.

The reason for this post is to ask about sur lies with the yeast I used, Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead. There is very little experience written online about this yeast beyond that it is rumoured to be finicky. I understand that some yeasts are excellent for aging on the lees and some are terrible. Nearly three months in bulk aging, an inch and a half of fine lees has accumulated in the bottom of the carboy; does anybody know what to expect from this yeast's lees? I am smelling and tasting every few weeks and there is no sulphur or other funk, but I'm curious to hear from somebody with experience.

Squatchy · Dec 11, 2017

budgies said:
Hello goodfolk of the forum. Several months ago I had some very helpful feedback on my peach mead. I moved it to bulk aging in September and added some oak cubes out of a grape wine that had been inoculated with a malolactic culture. A malolactic fermentation in the peach mead is desirable to me, but I'm not sure if the cubes were enough to transmit the culture. The cubes were about a 1/2 ounce of dark toast American oak, and I will soon be adding about an ounce of medium toast Hungarian to do some layering. At any rate, the mead has some lovely flavour but is still green and rough around the edges.

The reason for this post is to ask about sur lies with the yeast I used, Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead. There is very little experience written online about this yeast beyond that it is rumoured to be finicky. I understand that some yeasts are excellent for aging on the lees and some are terrible. Nearly three months in bulk aging, an inch and a half of fine lees has accumulated in the bottom of the carboy; does anybody know what to expect from this yeast's lees? I am smelling and tasting every few weeks and there is no sulphur or other funk, but I'm curious to hear from somebody with experience.

So one thing that is very importaant about sur lie ageing. You must kep the lee's roused into suspension. It's when they get burried on top of each other that causes the reductive issues (sulferish smell) that are a concern. Also. You don't want to long turn age on the "rough lees". These are the lee's that drop our first. Because they are larger particulates, and many not so much yeast cells. They can become reductive or vegeatal pretty easily. So I would do this with your batch if you choose to consider more time on the lee's. (To answer your Q. I have zero knowldge of that strain. SO I can not answer specifically).

Stir everything up real good and let it sit for 12-42 hours. Rack off of that crap. (rough lees). Now you have fine lees left in your must. Stir them every few days or so to keep them up in suspension. Continue to check your flavor profile. Once you think you are where ii's finished. Stop stirring. Cold crash if you can for a week or so and then rack off the lee's. I always stabilize after ferment is over. If you haven't I would consider doing that once you rack off the rough lees.

budgies · Dec 12, 2017

Squatchy said:
So one thing that is very importaant about sur lie ageing. You must kep the lee's roused into suspension. It's when they get burried on top of each other that causes the reductive issues (sulferish smell) that are a concern. Also. You don't want to long turn age on the "rough lees". These are the lee's that drop our first. Because they are larger particulates, and many not so much yeast cells. They can become reductive or vegeatal pretty easily. So I would do this with your batch if you choose to consider more time on the lee's. (To answer your Q. I have zero knowldge of that strain. SO I can not answer specifically).

Stir everything up real good and let it sit for 12-42 hours. Rack off of that crap. (rough lees). Now you have fine lees left in your must. Stir them every few days or so to keep them up in suspension. Continue to check your flavor profile. Once you think you are where ii's finished. Stop stirring. Cold crash if you can for a week or so and then rack off the lee's. I always stabilize after ferment is over. If you haven't I would consider doing that once you rack off the rough lees.

Thanks Squatchy, I have two questions about this. After fermentation finished and before racking, I let the must settle for two days. There was quite a bit of gunk at the bottom that I left behind. Was that not the gross lees? I thought what has settled in the carboy since racking was the fine lees. Second, the carboy is filled right up the neck: I have tried to stir it before but even a very slender racking cane displaces too much liquid to get it in more than a few inches, let alone stir up the bottom. I guess traditional sur lies was done in a barrel. Is it safe to leave enough space in the carboy to be able to get a stirring stick all the way down? Perhaps I'd better just rack it again.

Squatchy · Dec 12, 2017

budgies said:
Thanks Squatchy, I have two questions about this. After fermentation finished and before racking, I let the must settle for two days. There was quite a bit of gunk at the bottom that I left behind. Was that not the gross lees? I thought what has settled in the carboy since racking was the fine lees. Second, the carboy is filled right up the neck: I have tried to stir it before but even a very slender racking cane displaces too much liquid to get it in more than a few inches, let alone stir up the bottom. Perhaps I'd better just rack it again.

Sounds to be your perfect. It is what you want in your carbouy now, as you did rack off the rough lees. I would remove enough that you can put your stirrer down deep enough to stir the yeast up 3 times a week ors so. That tiny bit of headspace is fine. People worry too much about that because it is an issue in beer making. And has wandered over here to mead. But it's not an issue in mead like in beer. Especially if you are aware of managing SO2.

budgies · Dec 12, 2017

Squatchy said:
Sounds to be your perfect. It is what you want in your carbouy now, as you did rack off the rough lees. I would remove enough that you can put your stirrer down deep enough to stir the yeast up 3 times a week ors so. That tiny bit of headspace is fine. People worry too much about that because it is an issue in beer making. And has wandered over here to mead. But it's not an issue in mead like in beer. Especially if you are aware of managing SO2.

I do indeed come from a background of beer (and less so of wine), but I'm trying my best to learn the unique idiosyncrasies of meadmaking. Thanks for your expertise. Perhaps I'll "remove" enough for the stirrer via a drinking straw.

Squatchy · Dec 12, 2017

budgies said:
I do indeed come from a background of beer (and less so of wine), but I'm trying my best to learn the unique idiosyncrasies of meadmaking. Thanks for your expertise. Perhaps I'll "remove" enough for the stirrer via a drinking straw.

Go buy a turket baster. Mans best friend.
Go listen to these podcast I did a few months back to get the newest science under your belt.

http://gotmead.com/blog/gotmead-live-radio-show/ starts a 9/5

budgies · Dec 13, 2017

I do listen occasionally to the podcasts, Squatchy, although I learn more efficiently from reading. I found your oak talk particularly helpful. Last night I drew out a small amount of the mead to make enough room for a long racking cane, with which I was able to stir up all the lees. The sample tasted delicious. Even though it fermented quite dry, it has an unctuous sweetness and a delicious peach flavour. This has taught me a lesson about the power of oak -- there was extra when I racked, so I have also two half-gallon jugs that I did not oak. Their flavour is much more astringent and immature, and is mostly missing that mouthfeel and sweetness. edit actually this might also have to do with the malolactic culture possibly transmitted with the oak.

Having racked this mead about three months ago, I imagine that were Wyeast 4184 a stinky lees yeast like 71B, those off-flavours or -aromas would have developed by now. I am interested in getting this experience out there because there is just not a huge breadth of information on this yeast strain on the various forums I've been searching through. I contacted Wyeast to see if they have any experience to share on this point. A lot of people don't like this yeast, but my experience (on my first mead, too!) has been positive and painless.

Squatchy · Dec 13, 2017

budgies said:
I do listen occasionally to the podcasts, Squatchy, although I learn more efficiently from reading. I found your oak talk particularly helpful. Last night I drew out a small amount of the mead to make enough room for a long racking cane, with which I was able to stir up all the lees. The sample tasted delicious. Even though it fermented quite dry, it has an unctuous sweetness and a delicious peach flavour. This has taught me a lesson about the power of oak -- there was extra when I racked, so I have also two half-gallon jugs that I did not oak. Their flavour is much more astringent and immature, and is mostly missing that mouthfeel and sweetness. edit actually this might also have to do with the malolactic culture possibly transmitted with the oak.

Having racked this mead about three months ago, I imagine that were Wyeast 4184 a stinky lees yeast like 71B, those off-flavours or -aromas would have developed by now. I am interested in getting this experience out there because there is just not a huge breadth of information on this yeast strain on the various forums I've been searching through. I contacted Wyeast to see if they have any experience to share on this point. A lot of people don't like this yeast, but my experience (on my first mead, too!) has been positive and painless.

71-B gets a really bad rap. Mostly for mpeople who don't really know from first hand experience. It's fine to keep in suspension. And some have Surlie aged things for a very long time with good results. Once again the delitants parroting what thay have read and heard. Rather than actually knowing.

budgies · Dec 13, 2017

Squatchy said:
71-B gets a really bad rap. Mostly for mpeople who don't really know from first hand experience. It's fine to keep in suspension. And some have Surlie aged things for a very long time with good results. Once again the delitants parroting what thay have read and heard. Rather than actually knowing.

In your experience, then, are there yeasts which are more or less suitable for sur lie?

Squatchy · Dec 14, 2017

D21, D47, Cy3079

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