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Vicky Rowe
08-17-2004, 06:16 AM
Hi folks!

Well, we've been talking in other threads and other boards about how to improve GotMead. So, here's the scoop. If you want it to change, then volunteer to help (several of you already have, Thanks!).

First request is this: I'm using a new recipe program called CyberBrau. It's a PHP/mySQL program, and you can find it at http://www.cyberbrau.org if you're interested. It's set up for beer, but we can fudge it 'round.

We need to come up with mead info like this. You scientific types, we need a list of mead styles (mead, melomel, etc.) with an OG range, an FG range, and alcohol percent range. Don't worry about the rest of the numbers (IBU SRM CO2), because they don't really apply in mead. But I'm going to re-program this program to be a mead program. I've already emailed the creator for permission. If we don't know the info, we can always add it later, as data piles up. But we need a start point.

Right now, it has the following info in the 'styles' section:

Sections:
Style OG FG Alcohol (% v/v) IBU SRM CO2
Data:
American Amber Ale 1.044-56 1.006-16 4.5-5.5 20-40 11-18 2.2-2.8
American Brown 1.040-55 1.010-18 4-5.9 25-60 15-22 1.5-2.5
American Dark Lager 1.040-50 1.008-12 4-5.5 14-20 10-20 2.5-2.7
American Lager 1.040-46 1.006-10 3.8-4.5 5-17 2-4 2.6-2.7
American Light Lager 1.024-40 1.002-08 3.5-4.4 8-15 2-4 2.6
American Pale Ale 1.044-56 1.008-16 4.5-5.5 20-40 4-11 2.2-2.8
American Pilsener 1.045-60 1.012-18 5-6 20-40 3-6 2.6-2.7
American Premium Lager 1.046-50 1.010-14 4.3-5 13-23 2-8 2.6-2.7
American Wheat 1.030-50 1.004-18 3.5-4.5 5-17 2-8 2.3-2.6
Bamberg Rauchbier 1.048-52 1.012-16 4.3-4.8 20-30 10-20 2.2-2.6
Barley Wine 1.085-120 1.024-32 8.5-12.2 50-100 14-22 1.3-2.3
Belgian Dubbel 1.050-70 1.012-16 6-7.5 18-25 10-14 1.9-2.4
Belgian Fruit Lambic 1.040-72 1.008-16 5-7 15-21 no_data 2.6-4.5
Belgian Gueuze Lambic 1.044-56 1.000-10 5-6 11-23 6-13 3.0-4.5
Belgian Lambic 1.044-56 1.000-10 5-6 11-23 6-13 3.0-4.5
Belgian Pale Ale 1.044-54 1.008-14 4-6.2 20-30 3.5-12 1.9-2.5
Belgian Strong Ale 1.064-96 1.012-24 7-11 20-50 3.5-20 1.9-2.4
Belgian Tripel 1.060-96 1.016-24 7-10 20-25 3.5-5.5 1.9-2.4
Belgian White (Wit) 1.044-50 1.006-10 4.8-5.2 15-25 2-4 2.1-2.6
Berliner Weisse 1.028-32 1.004-06 2.8-3.4 3-6 2-4 3.5
Bière de Garde 1.060-80 1.014-22 4.5-8 25-30 8-12 no_data
Bock 1.066-74 1.018-24 6-7.5 20-30 20-30 2.2-2.7
Bohemian Pilsener 1.044-56 1.014-20 4.1-5.1 35-45 3-5 2.3-2.5
Brown Porter 1.045-60 1.008-16 4.5-6 20-30 20-30 1.7-2.5
California Common 1.040-55 1.012-18 3.6-5 35-45 8-17 2.4-2.8
Cream Ale 1.044-56 1.004-10 4.2-5.6 10-22 2-5 2.6-2.7
Doppelbock 1.074-80 1.020-28 6.5-8 17-27 12-30 2.3-2.6
Dortmunder/European Export 1.048-56 1.010-14 5-6 23-29 3-5 2.6
Dunkelweizen 1.048-56 1.008-16 4.8-5.4 10-15 16-23 3.6-4.5
Düsseldorf Altbier 1.044-48 1.008-14 4.3-5 25-48 11-19 2.2-3.1
Eisbock 1.092-116 no_data 8.6-14.4 26-33 18-50 2.4
English Best (Special) Bitter 1.038-45 1.006-12 4.1-4.8 28-46 12-14 0.75-1.3
English Brown 1.040-50 1.008-14 4-5.5 15-25 15-22 1.5-2.3
English Dark Mild 1.030-38 1.004-08 3.2-4.0 10-24 17-34 1.3-2.0
English Light Mild 1.030-38 1.004-08 3.2-4 10-24 8-17 1.3-2.0
English Old/Strong Ale 1.055-75 1.008-20 6-8 30-40 10-16 1.5-2.3
English Ordinary Bitter 1.033-38 1.006-12 3-3.7 20-35 8-12 0.75-1.3
English Pale Ale 1.044-56 1.008-16 4.5-5.5 20-40 4-11 1.5-2.3
English Strong (Extra Special) B 1.046-60 1.010-16 4.8-5.8 30-55 12-14 0.75-1.3
Flanders Brown 1.044-56 1.008-16 4.8-5.2 15-25 12-18 1.9-2.5
Foreign-Style Stout 1.052-72 1.008-20 6-7.5 30-60 40+ 2.3-2.6
German Pilsener 1.044-50 1.006-12 4.6-5.4 30-40 3-4 2.5
Helles Bock 1.066-68 1.012-20 6-7.5 20-35 4-10 2.2-2.7
Imperial Stout 1.075-90 1.020-30 7-9 50-80 20+ 1.5-2.3
India Pale Ale 1.050-70 1.012-18 5-7.5 40-60 8-14 1.5-2.3
Irish Dry Stout 1.038-48 1.008-14 3.8-5 30-40 40+ 1.6-2.0
Kölsch 1.042-46 1.006-10 4.4-5 20-30 3.5-5 2.4-2.7
Maibock 1.066-68 1.012-20 6-7.5 20-35 4-10 2.2-2.7
Munich Dunkel 1.052-56 1.014-18 4.5-5 16-25 17-20 2.2-2.7
Münchner Helles 1.044-50 1.008-12 4.5-5.5 18-25 3-5 2.3-2.7
Märzen/Oktoberfest 1.050-56 1.012-120 5.3-5.9 18-25 4-15 2.6-2.7
North German Altbier 1.040-55 1.008- 4.3-5 25-40 11-19 2.2-3.1
Oatmeal Stout 1.038-56 1.008-20 3.8-6 20-40 20+ no_data
Oud Bruin 1.044-56 1.008-16 4.8-5.2 15-25 12-18 1.9-2.5
Robust Porter 1.045-60 1.008-16 5.1-6.6 20-30 30+ 1.8-2.5
Schwarzbier 1.044-52 1.012-16 3.8-5 22-30 25-30 2.2-2.6
Scottish Export Ale 1.040-50 1.010-18 4.0-4.5 15-25 10-19 0.75-1.3
Scottish Heavy Ale 1.035-40 1.010-14 3.5-4 12-20 10-19 0.75-1.3
Scottish Light Ale 1.030-35 1.006-12 2.8-5 9-20 8-17 0.75-1.3
Strong Scotch Ale 1.072-85 1.016-28 6.2-8 25-35 10-25 1.5-2.3
Sweet Stout 1.045-56 1.012-20 3-6 15-25 40+ 2.0-2.4
Traditional Bock 1.066-74 1.018-24 6-7.5 20-30 20-30 2.2-2.7
Vienna 1.048-56 1.012-18 4.8-5.4 22-28 8-12 2.4-2.6
Weizen/Weissbier 1.046-56 1.008-16 4.9-5.5 10-15 3-9 3.6-4.5
Weizenbock 1.066-80 1.016-28 6.9-9.3 10-15 5-30 3.7-4.7
=========================

JamesP
08-17-2004, 11:06 AM
From the Michael L. Hall treatise on Mead Judging
http://www.hbd.org/atommash/hall/mead_judging.pdf

which has three sweetness ranges defined: Dry, Medium & Sweet
comes the following Quote:

Roughly, a dry mead will have a final gravity less than 1.010, a medium mead will fall in the range from 1.010 to 1.025, and a sweet mead will be greater than 1.025.


Somewhere else IIRC I've seen it split into 4 groupings of something like dry/semi-sweet/sweet/sack at <1.010, 1.010-1.020, 1.020-1.030 & >1.030

-------
I don't think the beer categories concept works as a direct translation to mead,

ie, is a traditional mead dry, medium or sweet? The answer depends on what you want to make (how much residual sweetness you want).

SO,
we probably want a matrix of Styles versus Sweetness
OR
just define the types (style) of mead, and the database gives the resultant %Alc (OG-FG), and sweetness (based of FG)

------
STYLES: (from a great site called gotmead ;D)

Hydromel
Sack mead
Melomel
Metheglin
Morat
Pyment
Hippocras
Cyser
Braggot
Oxymel
Rhodomel
Capsicumel
Omphacomel
T'ej

JamesP
08-17-2004, 11:19 AM
Another thought,

With calculating the %Alc, and determining the sweetness,

the "database" will need to determine the OG & FG of the ferment, but also need to account for any added honey used for sweetening to give a resulting mead "sweetness" category (but which doesn't affect the %Alc)

(All this assumes I am understanding how the CyberBrau works :P)

Oskaar
08-17-2004, 11:41 PM
Hi Vicky,

What kind of platform are you planning on mounting the Cyberbrau DB on?

Will you have the front end and back end on the same or separate machines, and will you need to u/l any applets, scripts or cookies to the user's machines?

That might help to determine how whomever will ultimately massage this thing around will proceed.

Looks exciting! I don't have a unix or linux box here. What would I need to mount it and run it?

Thanks,

Oskaar

Vicky Rowe
08-18-2004, 08:09 AM
I've already got it running on a Linux box, front and back end. I only use Unix/Linux boxes, mainly because I've never had the time to teach myself Windows internet stuff. I run Windows *locally*, but all my online stuff is Unix.

AFAIK, we won't need any other scripts to run this thing, I'm tweaking on this end for some of the stuff, minor tweaks only.

I'm thinking that the main categories do indeed need to be dry, medium and sweet mead, with the types being the sub-types. Another question is, should we also leave in the beer categories and cider categories? I've no issue with beer leaking into GotMead.......what about y'all?

Vicky - in Greenville, SC for 2 days

JamesP
08-18-2004, 09:54 AM
The beer stuff would certainly apply to the braggots.

My guess is most beer brewers probably have somewhere else to post their beer stuff.

If the beer stuff is there, then leave it. BUT, if CyberBrau needs changing to fit mead, then probably don't have the beer stuff.

JamesP
08-18-2004, 09:57 AM
I'm thinking that the main categories do indeed need to be dry, medium and sweet mead, with the types being the sub-types.

I would tend to search on "mead type", then "sweetness",
so how about main grouping being the mead type, sub-grouping being the sweetness?

Vicky Rowe
08-18-2004, 10:20 AM
That'll work. And I guess since I have to add the mead stuff anyway, I'll remove the beer stuff in the process, but leave in braggots and ciders.......

Talon
08-18-2004, 06:15 PM
Actually, I was thinking that you might like to leave in the beer stuff. As this site is more for mead makers, it's not a far stretch for us to branch out in experimentation and try beer brewing or wine making. It's the reverse of what I normally hear of others who primarilly brew wine and beer and experiment with mead making...

Just a thought that it would be a good place for us mazers to keep our beer info should we be adventurous enough to go that far...

Oskaar
08-19-2004, 12:43 AM
OK, now it's time for me to show the QA and Standards side of my personality.

Vicky, have you given any thought to standards for recipies and standards for ingredient measurements, procedure and process. I think one of the things that would vastly improve most recipies is if there were a consistant format (even in a DB) the way they are entered and served up as content.

I think using standards for measurements like T, tsp, C, oz, gal etc. would be very helpful and would lend some very much needed organization to the recipe database. Also I think it would help to give you better db content when it comes to setting up queries, searches, etc. If the data for each component of the recipe is consistant, then the db will yield better and more accurate information when the user runs a search against it.

I know that the db itself will force a basic structure, but I'm talking about using some validation to force adherence to some simple conventions for new entries, as well as thrashing the older recipes into the go-forward structure.

I'll follow-up with an email.

Oskaar

Vicky Rowe
08-19-2004, 05:41 AM
Good idea, Oskaar. And I agree. This place I'm staying is giving me authentication errors when I send mail (I did get that zip file you sent me), so I'll mail you this weekend after I get back late Friday night.

I'm not sure I'll be able to reverse-engineer the Q&A stuff into the code, but I'll be happy to zip it up and toss it at whomever can.

Vicky

JamesP
08-22-2004, 06:58 AM
Vicky,

back to the sub-type data that started this,

The data base (looking at the files in the cberbrau0.9.3.tar.gz disto) defaults to having BEER_TYPE defined, which includes Mead, while the BEER_SUBTYPE is the data that you have listed as "styles" in the origin post (above).

To keep the beer stuff in the gotmead forum, we will need to just add the MEAD STYLES to the list, and trust people to pick mead as main as the main "type" in their recipe, and select the appropriate "sub-type" to match their recipe,
ie Tradition, Melomel, Cyser, ....
This implies you can't then have sweetness as a sub-sub-type without modifying the database.

There doesn't seem to be a hard-wired logical link between sub-types and types, so someone could select a
type=mead
and
sub-type=barley wine or Porter or ... :-/

(I guess there will be some administrative adjustments made on the fly to keep the data sane ;))


IF beer stuff was eliminated, then the BEER_TYPE entries could be the main mead types (Traditional, Melomel, ...), and the subtypes could be simply the 3 or 4 sweetness levels.

-=-=-=-

Keeping the Beer stuff should work, but may need some "extra info" to tell people how to do the data entry.

Vicky Rowe
08-22-2004, 07:25 AM
Well, I had actually gone into the code, and added the various types of mead (melomel, etc.) to the main type, and dry, semi-sweet, sweet and sack to the sub-type.

I used the judging guide to outline the main styles, and the ranges of FG's for the sub-types. Check it out, and see if it works for you. I can always reverse them if that isn't workable.

Vicky

Oskaar
08-22-2004, 07:59 AM
Vicky,

I actually like what you did as a go forward classification schema. To me it makes sense to have the mead types then to sub them by dry, semi-sweet, etc. I went through my stuff and dug up a bunch of judging standards, and to me it made a lot of sense from both a practical and technical perspective to do it that way. Especially so since we will be adding a section for tasting notes which would be arranged in much the same manner.

May as well keep things standardized as much as possible, it just makes good administrative and content management sense.

GOOD CALL!

Oskaar

JamesP
08-22-2004, 10:36 AM
Vicky,

looking at the recipes page (http://www.gotmead.com/cyberbrau/recipe.php?primary=1)

is it possible for the left-hand style list to group together (separate out) the meads, beers, etc ??
Note, it also affects drop-down lists for sub-types, ie it is difficult to find the four mead sub-categories among the many beer sub-categories.

One idea: Maybe all the beer sub-categories have "beer - " prepended to them, eg, "beer - porter", "beer - lager", etc
and the mead have "mead - " prepended, eg, "mead - sweet", "mead - dry", etc

This will group together the sub categories alphabetically in a drop-down list (like subtype), as on page http://www.gotmead.com/cyberbrau/recipe.php?add=1

Oskaar
08-22-2004, 12:25 PM
Hi Vicky,

I think James has a pretty good idea on the grouping portion. Could be a good application for a sliding or flyout sub-menu from the main heading. Something like

Melomel
&#124;---Cherry
&#124;---Blueberry
&#124;---Strawberry

Anyhow, just a thought.

Oskaar

Vicky Rowe
08-22-2004, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I think that can be done. I'll dump the stuff we've got now, and just do it offline and re-insert it into the db.

Vicky

Vicky Rowe
08-22-2004, 08:39 PM
Oops, missed Oskaars post. I can do the first, with sorting the items. The sliding menu idea (I sure like those things!) won't work in the DB setting we've got here. However, we might be able to come up with something. I'll give it some thought whilst I'm getting my hairs cut today, and see if I come up with something.

Oskaar
08-22-2004, 11:40 PM
Shoot,

I keep forgetting about the db <---> menu interaction. Those sliders are really very nice. I'll noodle on that stuff a bit today, where there's a will there's a whey (at least according to Lil Red!)

Oskaar

Oskaar
08-24-2004, 11:20 AM
Hey Vicky,

I'll take a stab at the site logo and brand if you would like. Do you have a *.png file of your meadwench, viking and Gotmead Logo stuff?

Oskaar