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marvin54
12-15-2005, 10:23 PM
Hello everyone,

I need some advice. Intending to make Ken Schramms' "Falls Bounty Cyser", I accidently bought 4 gallons of potassium sorbated cider. The labels read "contains 1/10 of 1% potassium sorbate".
After doing some research on sorbate and finding out it doesn't stop an active ferment(and not having a use for 4 gallons of cider otherwise), I decided to go ahead and use the cider.
On 12/12 I made a starter of 10g of D-47 which seemed to go well. 12/13 I mixed the rest of the ingredients and pitched the yeast. As of tonight 12/15, there is very little activity in the fermenter just a few very small bubbles rising slowly to the top.

I really don't see the yeast picking up speed due to the sorbate preventing cell reproduction.
Should I wait a few days and repitch new yeast? or learn my lesson and read labels closer and start over?
thoughts or opinions?

Thanks,
Scott

lostnbronx
12-15-2005, 11:12 PM
Scott,

How active was your starter, and how big? Personally, I think I'd let this go for another day or two, and see if things pick up. What size batch is it? Five gallons, for instance, could take a couple days to get rolling. If you have to repitch, you might want to make a really big starter, and bomb it.

It would help us if you could post your exact recipe.

Thanks.

-David

Brewbear
12-16-2005, 01:14 AM
Welcome to the forums ;D
Another thing to consider is the temperature. D-47 will ferment in a range of 50 -86 deg.F so if you would keep it at a mid 70's it will be very happy. The lower the temperature, the slower it will ferment. Also, did you rehydrate with Go-Ferm?
The more details you can provide, the better we can help.

Cheers,
Brewbear

Oskaar
12-16-2005, 01:27 AM
I dunno guys, sorbated stuff to me is not worth the headache.

You can try but . . . it's sorbated after all so optimism in this place may be misplaced.

Cheers,

Oskaar

WRATHWILDE
12-16-2005, 01:35 AM
You can try but . . . it's sorbated after all so optimism in this place may be misplaced.


What happened to Custer?

Wrathwilde

Brewbear
12-16-2005, 01:37 AM
Custer....bit the dust??

Cheers
Brewbear

lostnbronx
12-16-2005, 01:38 AM
I dunno guys, sorbated stuff to me is not worth the headache.

You can try but . . . it's sorbated after all so optimism in this place may be misplaced.

Cheers,

Oskaar


People have saved them before. I mean, the guy already started this thing. It's worth a try, isn't it?

-David

Brewbear
12-16-2005, 01:42 AM
Yeah....Like Oskaar said before,
Take a chance, Custer did!!

Cheers,
Brewbear

Oskaar
12-16-2005, 01:44 AM
Custer is alive and well and living in the body of Gary Busey.

Sure, everything is worth a try, but, I think that at a certain point you just kind of chalk it up to experience and learn to read the labels. Been there done that.

That being said, I'd go with a EC-1118 starter on this one and bring the must temp to about 77 F or so to keep it warm.

Cheers,

Oskaar

Brewbear
12-16-2005, 01:49 AM
Learn to read???? What kind of herecy is this???LOL
Think of the possibilities if the sucker starts fermenting tho!

Cheers,
Brewbear

JoeM
12-16-2005, 02:02 AM
I made the same mistake a few years ago...i tried and i tried but it never got going...i would be very surprised if you got that sucker to start up, but good luck to you.

lostnbronx
12-16-2005, 02:03 AM
Custer is alive and well and living in the body of Gary Busey.


Ah, that explains it, 'cause Gary Busey has looked like a guy who somehow survived being butchered for years now. He was in Quigley in 2003 -- a low-budget kids movie wherein he dies and gets reincarnated as a dog. The sad part is, he only had to skip morning make-up in order to play the canine role too. :P

-David

hedgehog
12-16-2005, 04:03 AM
Well this is just my 2cents worth..
From what I learned in the sassifrass mead part of my "momentarily more than one gallon" posting, I found out that D-47 can handle some small amounts of sorbate. Anyhow by doing the math, I found out that in the way that I was using my sorbated ingrediants the sorbate came out to 12ppm in the actual must which was below the threshold of ~120ppm for D-47. While 4 gallons with 1/10th of 1% (~10,000ppm in each gallon, so if total must is 6.5 gallons that means ~6154ppm overall) seems like not much, its well over the 120ppm by quite a bit. Unless you happen to have any BIG carboys in which you could dilute this stuff down in, its not looking good for the yeasts. If you are patient and have hope in the little yeasties, you might just want to leave them alone and let them do their thing for a few weeks.
just a though..
hedgehog

HighTest
12-16-2005, 08:53 AM
I need some advice. Intending to make Ken Schramms' "Falls Bounty Cyser", I accidently bought 4 gallons of potassium sorbated cider. The labels read "contains 1/10 of 1% potassium sorbate".We have a Group Brew in progress (http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=43719) making this exact recipe. Two of the group brewers found themselves in your same situation - used sorbated cider. One of these brewers has successfully restarted his fermentation using our Stuck Fermentation FAQ (http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showforum=36
(http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showforum=36) ) - the other brewer did not even try the process. Perhaps this information will help you. ;) Feel free to read the entire group brew topic [24 pages... ::) ]

marvin54
12-16-2005, 05:58 PM
First, thanks for all the responces. This forum is great.

The yeast have picked up some, a larger quantity of bigger bubbles rising in the carboy.

Ok, some details:

5 gallon batch
4 gallons cider
8 lbs. clover honey
1 lb. dark brown sugar
.5 lb raisins
.5 lb. chopped dates
2 tsp. energizer
1 tsp. nutrient
10 g D-47
top up with water

For a starter I used 5-6 oz. of warm tap water, 1 oz. each of buckwheat and clover honey and a pinch of yeast nutrient and of yeast energizer. About 5 hours later, the foam pushed a paper towel off the 20 oz. cup I made the starter in. But, it wasn't until the next day that I pitched it. By then there was just a small amount of foam right on top of the liquid. No Go-Ferm used.

The temp. is on the low side in the basement right now. I'll find a warmer spot and move the fermenter.

Lostnbronx, I was thinking the same, throw in a large amount of healthy yeast cells and see what happens.

Hedgehog, your sassafrass post is one of the reasons i went ahead with this batch, I hope I have the same succes you seem to have.

Thanks for the links High Test, looks I'll be reading for a while. LOL

Thanks again for all your responces.

"Heeyyy Mr. Custer......I don't wanna gooo!"
Scott

marvin54
12-17-2005, 09:47 AM
Everyone,

Just a quick update, activity in the fermenter has picked up nicely, it's bubbling through the airlock about once every 11-12 seconds. I moved the carboy from the 60*F basement to the 67*-68*F nursery also. I haven't taken any gravity readings, maybe in a day or two.

Thanks,
Scott

lostnbronx
12-17-2005, 12:09 PM
Marvin,

The warmth should help things along even further. D-47 can take some colder temps, but this is a special case. Is there any place you can move it that's in the seventies?

-David

marvin54
12-19-2005, 01:52 PM
"Is there any place you can move it that's in the seventies?"

Not unless I turn up the thermo$tat. It's still bubbling about every 12 seconds, and alot of the raisins/dates are floating on the top. Still haven't gotten a gravity reading yet though.

Scott

marvin54
12-21-2005, 09:01 PM
After 8 days the gravity is 1.090 at 68*F. So its fermenting just not very fast.

Scott

WRATHWILDE
12-21-2005, 09:11 PM
After 8 days the gravity is 1.090 at 68*F. So its fermenting just not very fast.


What did it start at?

Wrathwilde

Brewbear
12-21-2005, 09:59 PM
Given the ingredients the OG should be around 1.096 to 1.100! It would seem to me that the fermentation is limping along and it would benefit from a warmer environment. I would consider one of them fancy carboy blankets from B3 http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16674 I might get one this year if Santa will be really cool! I have it on very reliable sorces the he got me a wort chiller already ;)

Cheers,
Brewbear

lostnbronx
12-22-2005, 02:03 AM
This is going slowly. I suspect your yeasties will be quite stressed by the time they finally give out -- which may be far short of where they ought to. You may want to think about repitching -- this time with an aggressive yeast like EC-1118, as Oskaar suggests -- and making a BIG starter. A heating pad or brewing belt for the outside of the fermenter might help considerably, too.

-David

Brewbear
12-22-2005, 02:40 AM
I was thinking about pitching a BIG starter with K1-V but Oskaar's advice to pitch EC-118....the man knows his stuff up,down, and sideways so I'd go with that! The only thing would be that either yeast will ferment it to dryness. I guess that backsweetening is a whole lot better than a ruined batch!

Cheers,
Brewbear

marvin54
01-05-2006, 01:56 AM
My Go-ferm order arrived in the mail today, so I rehydrated some EC-1118 and made a starter. Its already started fermenting. Hopefully in a few days I'll be able to pitch a large amount of yeast in there.
The cider is still slowly fermenting and it smells good through the airlock, but I'm getting worried the yeast will get stressed.
I didn't get and original gravity measurement.

Scott

Brewbear
01-27-2006, 01:37 AM
Well,
What's the news???? Is it going?

Cheers,
Brewbear

marvin54
03-30-2006, 11:35 AM
All,
Well, I pitched the starter about two weeks after my last post. The cyser really started fermenting well for about 1 1/2-2 days and then slowed way down again. I took a gravity reading yesterday, its 1.084 at 68*F, so the starter didn't have much affect. Its still slowly fermenting and the sample I took tasted good so I'm going to just let it go for now and see what happens.

Thanks for all the help,
Scott

Oskaar
03-31-2006, 07:38 PM
See if you can bring your heat up to about 72 to 73 degrees F, MAXIMUM. That may help the yeasties get going a bit more. Anything over that 74 F mark generally produces off flavors and higher alcohols.

Cheers,

Oskaar

marvin54
04-02-2006, 01:17 PM
Thanks, I'll try that.

Scott