Right to defend yourself?

Pewter_of_Deodar · Mar 27, 2006

I was reading an article today about the fact that homeowner's insurance in our state are exempt from paying legal fees to defend a homeowner who is sued when they injure an intruder. A lady was home with her three children and was attacked by two men and knocked unconscious. She came to while they were still in the house and fled to a bedroom where she had a gun stashed. As they attacked her a second time, she shot one and the other fled. She left the room and and checked on her children, then returned to find the injured attacker getting to his feet. The attacker refused her orders not to get up and so she shot him dead. She got sued by the family of the dead man...

What the heck is wrong with the judicial system in this country? Anyone breaks into my home and attacks my wife and children should be shot. Why do we act as if criminals have a right to rape, kill, and otherwise brutalize law abiding citizens? To me, they surrender the right to live as soon as they hold the knife to the ladies neck, point the gun at the convenience store clerk, or pry open the door at an individuals home...

Your thoughts?

memento · Mar 27, 2006

My thoughts - too many people have the lawyer mentality. But put yourself on the other side. Say that your son broke into someone's house. Isn't killing him a bit extreme? Wouldn't shooting both his legs be enough?

Personally, I don't know the rage I would feel if someone broke into my house and attacked my wife. It scares me. I do know that I would not be nice and my thought process would be that once dead, they would feel no more pain, and that would be too nice.

I agree with you to a point. Defend yourself with all your might. I agree with that. I just don't feel justfied in killing or allowing to be killed. Life is not my decision.

Dan McFeeley · Mar 27, 2006

A tough one -- something to be judged on an individual case basis.

I think the general rule for a private citizen is meeting equal force with equal force.

Another consideration, not always addressed by the legal system, is whether or not you're going to live through the attack.

pain · Mar 27, 2006

Well, I'm of the opinion that if they come all the way out here to the boonies to break into my home, their intentions are not peaceful.

A person should be able to feel secure in their own home. And frankly, since my first job is to protect my daughter, I *must* assume that anyone forcing their way into my home is by definition threatening my family. I'm not going to stop to ask them their intentions when they break in. I'll just stop them any way I can. If that means they die, I'll feel bad, but I won't mourn them. They started it. They want to live, don't invade others' homes.

I don't know this dweeb, don't know if he/she is violent, has mental problems, or is carrying a weapon. Any mistaken assumption on my part could cost me or my daughter our lives. And where we live, no one can hear you scream. So, I assume that if they enter my home in a forcible fashion, then they have then surrendered any right to safety.

Is death for a B&E extreme? Perhaps. But then, did they expect to be welcomed with bags of money? If I wake up to hear someone in my home, I go into 'protect the kid' mode. I am *automatically* in fear of my life. And if they don't leave immediately, theirs is in danger. All they have to do is leave.

IMO, we have become a nation that is *too* accomodating. We take 'policially correct' to ridiculous extremes, and we let our criminals know that no matter how heinous a crime they commit, they will always have an out. We tie the hands of our police and courts, empower the lawyers to skirt the rules, and expect the citizens to lie down like sheep and accept slaughter while they wait for the understaffed, underfunded 911 to get to their home and save them.

When I was in Atlanta, a man was jumping women when they came out of their apartments, dragging them back in, hitting them over the head and raping them. If they had kids, he would tie them up and put them in a closet. It took the police nearly a year to catch him, because his *wife* was protecting him. He raped over 20 women. And when he finally got to court, it turned out he'd done the same thing in Michigan and fled to Atlanta where he started again.

Had I met 'force with force' if he came to my house, he would had gone on to hurt someone else, and might have killed me.

I keep a gun *and* a lead-loaded baseball bat handy. I saw the women that creep attacked (in the apartment complex *across the street* from me), and had a good friend nearly killed by a B&E who thought he'd have a little rape on the side when he saw she was home. That was 20 years ago. She still can't sleep at night. It won't happen to me if I can help it. I won't be a sheep.

My police officer neighbor (at the time), who was on the task force seeking the man, told me that if I was attacked, shoot first. Forget the questions. And if he got out of the apartment, shoot him again and drag the body back into the place. Nearly every police officer I've discussed the concept with agreed.

Nope. Someone breaks in while I'm home, they automatically forfeit any claim to *any* sort of safety from grievous harm they might think they have. I don't take precious time to ask if they intend to hurt us or not. I assume the worst. You have to.

Just my opinion.

Vicky

kash · Mar 27, 2006

I'll tell you what is coached in my states CPP classes (that's Concealed Pistol Permit). Flee to your bedroom or another part of the house, call 911 and stay on the line. Then announce to the home invader that you have a gun, you're willing to use it if they come into the room and that the police are on the way. Then if the invader enters the room keep shooting until they quit moving.

While I'm sure that's good advice to avoid losing a law suit, I'm not sure how practical it is. Simply stated, the woman in the above story is probably lucky to be alive to be sued. It's a shame that a tort can be brought in this mannor, but then torts are like that. Might as well counter sue the parents of the invader for raising a rapist/robber, then counter sue the estate of the dead robber for cleaning costs where his blood stained the floor.

One frivolous law suit deserves a dozen more.

pain · Mar 27, 2006

Well, in my case, once they're in, that isn't an option. The bedrooms are at one end of the house, the rest of the house is open as one big room. So, in order to get from my bedroom to my daughters' (and there is *no way* I won't be going there to keep her from harm), I must be in the open area. So, they get threatened, then they get attacked.

Vicky

SteveT · Mar 27, 2006

Kash -- sorry man... if someone invades my castle, the last thing I'm going to do is announce that "I HAVE A GUN" and dial 911. Right. They'll know I have a weapon when they see a muzzle flash and I dial 911 to remove the perp from my home. It may sound harsh, if someone breaks into my home, they will have an unpleasant surprise. And, there is no way I am going to give some criminal any advance warning.

Vicky, I completely agree with all of what you said, make sure the prep cannot answer any questions and you will not have anything to worry about.

WRATHWILDE · Mar 27, 2006

Funny, I've never imagined killing anybody, in every "what if" scenario I've ever played through in my head my goal has always been to leave the assailant crippled for life, and has never involved me being armed in any way. A solid blow to the windpipe is a good place to start the attack, it makes it damn near impossible to breathe, while they're struggling for breath you can proceed to cripple other areas as you see fit.
When I was living in a particularly bad section of Southern California (Rialto) I sometimes found myself wishing some of the Gang members would attack me, but they never did, they always gave me a wide berth on the sidewalk. Part of it might have been because I wore my trench coat as a cape, so you couldn't see my hands, and with my camera strapped to my waist and my Art supplies tucked in inside pockets it looked like I was packed with weapons. The second reason might have been that I always looked them hard in the eye, as if to say, give me a reason and I'll take out all of you. It's the only time in my life I've ever felt violent, but with all the gangs walking the streets... being attacked was a very real possibility. There were gun fights outside our apartment complex on a weekly basis, often a couple of times a week.
For me I'll keep them alive and see them sent off to prison crippled.

Wrathwilde

Dmntd · Mar 27, 2006

memento said:
Isn't killing him a bit extreme? Wouldn't shooting both his legs be enough?

NO! if you cripple them, you could end up having to support them and their family for the rest of your life.

Anthony

DarkStar · Mar 27, 2006

That story is why I believe every state needs the "Castle law" which removes the burden from the person getting attacked and makes it simple, if someone pulls a knife, gun ,bat or breaks into your house,car that they are not friendly and you can use any and all force required to protect yourself. It removes the must run first from the self defense law before you are allowed to defend your family and property.

theshadowhammer · Mar 27, 2006

my wifes father had a restaruant in a bad part of town the place was held up 6 times in 15 years 3 of the six he lost small amounts of pre planned hold up money
on the 3 other times gun fire was exchanged
once he was involved in a gun fight with a perp he shot and killed him(no lawsuit followed)

on the 2 other occassions he shot and wounded other men
one of these times my wifes sister was held with a gun to her head (both of these situations ended with lengthy law suits the last one was just settled last year for something that happened in 98 nothing happened to him but he did have lawyer fees)

so if your going to shoot do as they say in hunter saftey courses DON'T SHOOT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO KILL !!!

buy the way did you guys know walmart and sports authority stores are no longer caring firearms

now may be a good time to make that gun purchase if your on the fence

WRATHWILDE · Mar 27, 2006

theshadowhammer said:
now may be a good time to make that gun purchase if your on the fence

I keep toying with the idea of picking up a Browning Safari 300 Win. Mag with BOSS, don't know when I'd ever use it though so it's not a must have at the moment.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=002B&cat_id=031&type_id=001

Wrathwilde

kash · Mar 27, 2006

SteveT said:
Kash -- sorry man... if someone invades my castle, the last thing I'm going to do is announce that "I HAVE A GUN" and dial 911. Right. They'll know I have a weapon when they see a muzzle flash and I dial 911 to remove the perp from my home. It may sound harsh, if someone breaks into my home, they will have an unpleasant surprise. And, there is no way I am going to give some criminal any advance warning.

Hey, I agree that what they teach in this state is a tad bit ridiculous. Mind you, I said that those instructions were to win the lawsuit that would be sure to follow. Not that they were practical life saving measures.

I'm familiar with the right to defend in three states. In Wisconsin, you must flee. If cornered, then you may use a similar level of force. For example, if being assailed with a knife, you may use a knife or a bat. But if you bring the gun to the knife fight, they it's "you bad". In Indiana the rules are much more relaxed. If someone says they're going to break into your house and kill you, and they start to break in, you're good dropping them on the steps. There is no need to flee. In Michigan the rules require that you attempt to flee buy may use a firearm if you feel your life is in jepordy. That will keep you from being arrested. However, expect the civil suit and expect to lose. That's why the CPP class emphasizes those weird measures, to reduce the likelihood of losing the tort. If you noticed, the 911 was still on the line recording you announcing to the invader that you had a gun, planned on using it if the door was opened. In fact they teach you to say, "Don't make me use this on you". Again, placing the burden back on the invader.

Carrying a firearm in this state is hardly a treat. The hoops that one must jump through if stopped on a traffic stop are simply nuts. But the alternative is to either carry illegally and that's a felony or not carry and then best stay out of areas that might require self defense. At least this state require actual range time and instruction. I think Indiana still doesn't require either (although it's been some time since I've lived there and had to update the permit).

Killing someone isn't a topic to be taken lightly, if you do it, you'll have to live with it the rest of your life, civil torts be damned. Deciding to pull the trigger is a decision that says, "I'd rather be sued into poverty than killed".

Miriam · Mar 28, 2006

We don't have a weapon in the house, but I considered it for years, especially before my present husband and married, and I was alone with three small children.

When an Arab delivery man from the supermarket put the packages down and started looking at me in a shifty way, my heart pounded but I knew what to do: I took the carving knife out of its block and stood there, holding it in a way that showed I was ready to stab him. The guy's eyes widened and he left, fast. No words exchanged. I never allowed a delivery man into my house again, although the supermarket soon after stopped hiring Arabs.

If events warrant my acquiring a weapon, I will get one, learn to use it, and use it if necessary, God forbid. Believe me, I would not consider the worth of an intruder's life. I know what the enemy is capable of doing.

Miriam

Oskaar · Mar 28, 2006

A long time ago I went to a lecture featuring Timothy Leary and G. Gordon Liddy (yes the two of them actually became friends and travelled the lecture circuit together) I liked Liddy's response to having guns in the house.

"...since I am a convicted felon, it is illegal for me to own a gun. However, my wife has an extensive collection of guns which she keeps under my side of the bed."

Cheers,

Oskaar

Scott Horner · Mar 28, 2006

I keep a loaded 12 gauge shotgun next to my bed. The way I think of it, if the intruder does't run when they hear that sucker being racked then they are too stupid to live. I don't know how the rest of America is but here in California a good friend of mine who is a police office told me the magic words they want to hear. "I was in fear of my life officer". Kinda a get out of shooting free card (as long as it is a stranger). Of course if you shoot him and he gets blown out a window make sure you drag him back into the house

. I say let them sue me, I'll countersue for intentional infliction of mental distress, and great pain to my trigger finger.

Go ahead make me mead!

memento · Mar 28, 2006

In reality - I don't own a gun and don't ever intend to. I live where there is almost no crime, but I have a security system on my house. I can defend myself well, but hopefully I'll never have to.

Pewter_of_Deodar · Mar 28, 2006

I have to roll my eyes in amazement that people believe "use of equal force" is a reasonable option in any of these situations. I picture my wife or 14 year old daughter being limited by law to using a knife against a potential rapist that has been involved in gangs for all of his life. What chance does that give my wife or daughter? If he is unarmed but has the strength of an NFL player, are they forbidden from using any weapons?

We really do act as if those people have a "right" to rob or rape or enter our homes without our permission. We coddle the heroin addict that has to steal to support his habit. Poor guy, must be awful to be hooked on drugs. We coddle the pedophile because his family was disfunctional and excuse his "mistreatment" of children without thought to how many lives he is ruining.

I don't hunt because I do not enjoy killing. I'd rather shoot a 9 point buck with a camera. I suppose if someone actually assaults my wife or kids, I will have to deal with the emotions when it occurs. But I think I would tend to be like the guy from Iowa, who when they rescued his 7 or 8 year old son who had been kidnapped and held by a pedophile in Texas for two years, went to Texas and shot the guy in the head in the airport as they brought him back to Iowa for trial. Rape my wife, rape my daughter, even rape Vicki or Mynx or Scout or anyone I know and somehow feel that you have a right to be all safe and secure? I think not... Not no but hell no!!

storm1969 · Mar 28, 2006

In Maryland the law reads that you are not allowed to defend property. You can use deadly force if you have family in your house and are in fear for them. If you are in your house alone, and you can get out, you do not have the right to use deadly force (but I would anyway). You only have the right to defend yourself, if your life is threatened. (and the definition of life in danger is very narrow).

Brian

memento · Mar 28, 2006

Pewter - what happened to him after he shot the guy? Did he go to prison? Was it worth it for him to now be locked away from his son? I'm definitely not saying that the pedophile should have gotten any sympathy, I'm just trying to show the other side and that there are ramifications for extreme actions.

Right to defend yourself?

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