braggot theory

calicojack · Jul 16, 2011

Let me preference this with:
i can't seem to find jack on the process of making braggot, other than the ingriedients; so i have some questions:

With a braggot, being that it has such a close familiarity to ale, is it found to be that more alcohol is preferred (say 15-18%) or less (6-9%)?

What kinda of wheat do most people use? Specifically when i do this, i want a golden color? not like an apple juice gold color, and not a light yellow color like lemon, but like a musky, unfiltered, unpasteurized, pale ale golden.

What's the grain to water ratio? (most fruits i've seen recommended are like 3lbs per gallon). and what is the soak/boil time per gallon?

What yeasts do most people use for braggots? ale or wine yeast?

(i know that braggots are covered in the complete mead maker, but i haven't gotten that far into it yet, and don't want to skip ahead).

AToE · Jul 16, 2011

I'd skip ahead or wait until you get to that part of the book. Making beer is complex stuff, it can be simpler of course, but even then it's still got steps that are alien to a mead/wine maker.

What ABV is up to you entirely, there is no standard or preference. Less than 8% and it might get tough to identify the honey though.

Grains are the complex part, how you pick em, what you do with them. Also there's the hops to consider. You don't boil the grains, you mash them.

Look up the following terms "all grain" "partial mash" and "extract". Start reading! Usually a blend of using extract and some specialty grains is a good way to start, rather than all grain. All grain requires some extra equipment that you might not exactly have lying around.

Once you've done some reading on "mash" and the above terms I think you'll have some more precise questions that can help us guide you towards the best process/ingredients for you.

Also, "wheat" is not necessarily an ingredient unless it's something you specifically want to use. Most ale/lagers are made from barley.

calicojack · Jul 16, 2011

okay, so braggot is more of a beer than a mead off-shoot? if that's the case, i don't think it's the way i want to go. i can buy beer, and i have lots of choices i know i like.

commonsenseman · Jul 16, 2011

calicojack said:
okay, so braggot is more of a beer than a mead off-shoot? if that's the case, i don't think it's the way i want to go. i can buy beer, and i have lots of choices i know i like.

I wouldn't say it's beer, or mead. It's a hybrid that shares characteristics of both, but maintains it's own identity as well. It is somewhat ale-like, but usually seems to be high enough in alcohol to not beer like many commercial beers. The closest beer I'd compare it to is a Barleywine, or an old ale. It definately doesn't have to be that hoppy though. The one that I recently made is supposed to be more like an Imperial Stout. If you're looking for a good braggot to try out & see if you like it, check out WhiteWinterWinery. They have two Braggots & both are excellent. The regular one is only about 8% but is very good, the oak aged one is about 12% & is a very strong drink. Perfect for a cold winter night as a sipper.

Wheat would go quite well in a Braggot, but don't expect it to taste like much, it's mostly added for body & head retention. I would check out Schramm's recipe in your book, it's a very full-bodied Barleywine style Braggot, but should still retain some mead characteristics. If it's too much hops for you, you could scale it down to suit your tastes. I prefer lots of hops, they'll mellow quite a bit with time anyway, but to each his own.

As AToE suggested, I'd try extract before you try all-grain. Quite easy & doen't take as much equipment. If you do decide to go the extract route, no need to add wheat, since it needs to be mashed anyway. You can get wheat extract if that's a taste you desire. For extract, I'd add some "specialty grains" to your recipe, something like Crystal 20L would work perfectly. Maybe even a little Roasted Barley (not too much though, it's quite dark).

AToE · Jul 17, 2011

I was mostly talking about it like a beer due to the added processes, in taste/aroma it can be anything you want, from almost entirely beer (basically a honey beer at that point) to almost entirely mead (with hardly any beer character). It is what you make it.

Meriadoc · Jul 17, 2011

To my way of thinking (and mind you, this is just me talking -- it isn't any sort of definition of the style), if the honey is added at secondary (or worse yet, boiled along with the wort), then it's just a "honey beer"; but, if the honey is added to cooled wort, resulting in a wort/must hybrid, then it's a proper braggot.

I keep mine at beer ABV ranges, rather than mead / barleywine ABVs. I also prefer to use honey as my priming sugar.

Like I said... just personal preference, here...

AToE · Jul 17, 2011

Oddly enough, the braggot/honey beer with the most honey character I've ever tried is Fullers Honeydew beer. It's not my favourite by any means, but the honey really comes through very strongly - but it tastes too dry for that honey to not be fermented... very curious about how they got so much honey character.

fatbloke · Jul 17, 2011

Well, I'm equally in the dark about this, because a friend in Oklahoma, makes a braggot/honey beer by making an all grain and extract wort that is fermented with an ale or beer yeast, but then adds honey and water syrup before pitching a wine yeast. I can't remember if its served still or carbonate, but he reckons it retains enough unfermentables so the result is like a very strong (14% ABV) beer like drink.

Now I also found a reference that says if the honey provides less than 50% of the fermentables, its not a "proper" braggot. It's honey beer.

Most of the info I found was recipes from the POV of beer brewers. Yet I don't follow why it is, that I can't just make a mead and just add some malt extract. Surely that would be a braggot, even at its most basic and not all that faffing around with hops and IBU's etc ?

AToE · Jul 17, 2011

fatbloke said:
Most of the info I found was recipes from the POV of beer brewers. Yet I don't follow why it is, that I can't just make a mead and just add some malt extract. Surely that would be a braggot, even at its most basic and not all that faffing around with hops and IBU's etc ?

Definitely it would be a braggot, though if the malt didn't end up coming through in the final product it would basically just be very similar to a sweet/semisweet traditional, because without the hops all you have to rely on for the beer half is of course the malt. Anything near 50/50 would probably give a great result though, especially with an amber malt extract rather than light (or even dark extract if you wanted).

commonsenseman · Jul 18, 2011

I would strongly recommend adding some type/amount of hops. I think you'll find it to be quite unbalanced without. If you're looking for something low in "hoppiness", I'd suggest East Kent Golding or Fuggles. Both are low in Alpha Acids, but would add just enough bitterness to keep it balanced.

If you do try something with just malt & honey, be sure to let us know how it turns out!

kudapucat · Jul 18, 2011

I'd definitely like to make a malted mead. I'm pretty sure my intolerance of beer comes from the hops added.
Has anybody made a malted (no hops) mead before? I've not found a recipe before.

Meriadoc · Jul 18, 2011

kudapucat said:
I'd definitely like to make a malted mead. I'm pretty sure my intolerance of beer comes from the hops added.
Has anybody made a malted (no hops) mead before? I've not found a recipe before.

Have you ever tried a stout or a porter before? (Although, not an imperial stout.) Cause these are heavy enough on malt flavors that the hops aren't really front-and-center in the flavor profile. The hops are there, of course, but not enough to overpower the malt.

AToE · Jul 18, 2011

I was going to ask what sweeter ales at all you've tried? Most people that hate beer hate the Molson/Bud/Coors junk, which are very bad representations of beer.

I agree that personally I wouldn't do a braggot without hops, but if someone really has tried many kinds and simply doesn't like them then I don't think an un-hopped braggot, or "malted mead" would be any more unbalanced than a traditional of equal sweetness.

YogiBearMead726 · Jul 18, 2011

You could also use something other than hops to "bitter" the braggot. Heather flower tops come to mind...

kudapucat · Jul 18, 2011

So if we do it, we're breaking new ground?
Ok. I have NFI about beer (besides having tried over 150 varieties, including a homebrew that was almost nice (read - low hops))
Where does one start? I don't even know what malt is, besides a powder. Where's it come from?
I really don't think I'm the best to be breaking new ground here, but if I'm all there is...

AToE · Jul 18, 2011

kudapucat said:
So if we do it, we're breaking new ground?
Ok. I have NFI about beer (besides having tried over 150 varieties, including a homebrew that was almost nice (read - low hops))
Where does one start? I don't even know what malt is, besides a powder. Where's it come from?
I really don't think I'm the best to be breaking new ground here, but if I'm all there is...

Oh no, not new ground, just not done commonly because it often might just get a similar result to a sweet mead anyways.

Malt isn't powder it is specially prepared grain. Grain is rehydrated in water very carefully until it starts to sprout, this is called malting. This gets certain enzymes in production inside the grain. Then it is kild dried. The amount of time it spends in the kiln, amonst other things, determines the toast level, style of toast... it gets complicated fast at this point. When it's time to brew beer, this "malt" is milled to crack it all open, and it is steeped in specific temp water to extract the sugars and let the enzymes convert complex unfermentable starches into simpler sugars the yeast can eat. This is called "mashing" and it creates "sweet wort" which is basically "must" but for beer. Then the grain is removed and the boiling begins.

The powder is DME, dry malt extract. They do all the first steps but don't boil the wort, they vacuum concentrate it for packaging to be used as a simple way to make beer at home. You can buy LME (liquid) or DME at the brewstore. EDIT: Also both liquid and dry malt extract are usually only made/sold in 3 toast levels, light, amber and dark. As to what specific malt types went into the making of each, it's often anyone's guess.

Medsen Fey · Jul 18, 2011

Actually there are a few threads around about using malt in recipes that don't have hops. If you do an advanced search for malt and limit to titles only, you'll find at least a few that may give you some ideas.

As for what malt is, it is a grain that has been sprouted to allow the enzymes to develop. The enzymes are then able to break down the starch in the grains into fermentable sugars, as well as non-fermentable complex sugars (dextrins) that give body. Once sprouted the grain is dried to stop the further breakdown of starch until you put it in the brewpot. This malting process is usually done with barley because it develops the highest concentration of the enzymes for breaking down starch which is why it has always been the favored grain for brewing. The barley malt may be processed further into a liquid extract that looks like dark honey or molasses that makes it easy to pour out of a can and stir right in (big time saver), or it can be further processed into a powder (dry malt extract).

Edit - AToE is moving fast today!

Meriadoc · Jul 18, 2011

AToE said:
EDIT: Also both liquid and dry malt extract are usually only made/sold in 3 toast levels, light, amber and dark. As to what specific malt types went into the making of each, it's often anyone's guess.

I was surprised, the last time I walked in my LHBS, to see that there was a wide range of LMEs out there -- not just light, medium, and dark, but also corresponding to a range of beer types...

(Of course, "light, medium, and dark" isn't the whole story: when you're brewing from extracts, you often choose from a variety of adjunct grains, hops, and yeasts in order to re-create any number of beer styles!)

AToE · Jul 18, 2011

Meriadoc said:
I was surprised, the last time I walked in my LHBS, to see that there was a wide range of LMEs out there -- not just light, medium, and dark, but also corresponding to a range of beer types...

(Of course, "light, medium, and dark" isn't the whole story: when you're brewing from extracts, you often choose from a variety of adjunct grains, hops, and yeasts in order to re-create any number of beer styles!)

They were just pure malt extract? Not the ones with hops in them too? Those are definitely a different story, I've only seen malt extract in the 3 kinds, but I also haven't been to every LHBS!

And yes, you can do all kinds of things with those 3 kinds of ME, lots more to the story for sure.

mccann51 · Jul 18, 2011

AToE said:
I don't think an un-hopped braggot, or "malted mead" would be any more unbalanced than a traditional of equal sweetness.

Agreed.

Thinking of a high gravity, dry but dextrinous (non-hopped) braggot: the malt would balance the alcohol, as in imperial stouts.

braggot theory

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