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Thread: Cool Stuff - Rank Icons

  1. #21

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    EverGreenman, RUN, DUDE! You poked a stick in the hive and pissed off the Queen Bee now.

    Seriously, in EverGreenman's defense, "ranking" people does create class distinctions, but that is the reality of an online community that offers "premium" levels of access. The simple fact is such distinctions can be put to good or bad use. In my short experience with the site, it is all good so far. He is just warning us to keep vigilant against their bad use.

    By the way, is there a secret handshake?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The OC
    Posts
    7,874

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    Yes, there is. I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you...maybe that's why new patrons keep disappearing?
    Is it tasty . . . precious?

  3. #23

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    Hey, Greenman,

    As one of those who has very limited time and is part of the "answering" community, I ask you to consider that if there is a new/interesting question posed, there almost always is discussion.

    If it's a question that has been answered eleventy-million times then you are directed to seach.

    Or if you don't provide the information that the "Read before you post" sticky requires. It's just not possible to have any idea of what is going on with your mead if you don't use a recipe, take readings, and make observations and then sit down an share that information. "My mead is (whatever), how can I fix it " doesn't mean anything. There are 20 or so different sours and hundreds of different fixes - do we have to sit down and go through them over and over again. It is unrealistic to expect to sit down to the computer and type out a question in 30 seconds that takes people hours to answer.

    Oskaar, Vickie, Wayne, Medsen, Angus, et al have spent hundreds of hours carefully and supportively answering question for folks. A little badge is small compensation (hee hee!).

    ******WARNING WARNING RANT RANT RANT EJECT IF SENSITIVE************
    If you do your due diligence you will see over and over people asking questions, getting a clear and well reasoned answer, and then blowing it off and doing what they want. AND THEN whining that their mead failed and asking questions on how to fix it.
    Just spend a hour or so on the JAO thread and you can see what I am talking about. No wonder Joe no longer posts.
    *******************RANT OFF **********************************

    If I can offer a suggestion, GM. Please feel free to talk about what you are thinking or observing with your mead in your brewlog. If you have detailed questions, do some research and post your thoughts on what is going on. If you enjoy discussion, create a space in which it can occur. But always keep in mind that the time I spend responding to you is time out of my life and my choice to do or not do. If you make a compelling question on a topic in which I have information, if I have time, I may answer. If you ask the same question that I just spent 45 minutes tying up an answer to a month ago, it's not going to happen.

    YMMV - I am a grumpy old lady... :-)

    Leonora
    "Spanky, Sparky, Buckwheat the Fourteenth - doing the right thing starts first thing in the morning, not after you are caught." -- John Criton FarScape

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    The Fusel Shack, in the swamp west of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    Posts
    8,641

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreenman View Post
    I didn't mean to be offensive, and I hope I didn't come off as such.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly take no offense. It is good to discuss controversial points - though bar room brawls have their place too. LOL!
    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreenman View Post
    I've felt very put off. I often get "do a forum search" or "google it" as opposed to DISCUSSION. I know some of you have been around for a lonnnnnng time and have seen topics discussed numerous times, but that's no excuse to put off a question as "you can find it somewhere else". Yeah, I can, but I want to talk about it. That's all.

    Anyways...I'm on a time limit here.
    I'm quite sorry that you have felt put off. I don't think anyone intends that, but as you point out, time is quite precious. There are many question that are recurring (don't believe me? then check the MLD archives and look at questions being asked several years ago) and for which the answer hasn't changed. In an effort to use time wisely we trying to get people to use the search tool (it really does work - especially if you used the advance search features to narrow it down a bit).

    Sometimes I will include a link to a thread with the answer to point someone to the right place, but if I don't have the thread at my fingertips, that may not be possible. If a topic has already been discussed at length, asking someone to take the time (and the storage space) to repeat it all again is a bit unfair. Anyone who wants to learn, has a wealth of information that just requires a bit of searching and reading.

    If you want to have a discussion, ask something new.

    Medsen
    Lanne pase toujou pi bon
    (Past years are always better)

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreenman View Post
    I just don't like the badges! It makes it seem like some are privilaged and some aren't and I don't like that. You already have the patron section where you can discuss all your secret stuff, and one can join for the exchange of currency (I fully intend to join at some point, when I have currency) I just don't like the labels. I don't like labels. (except pretty ones that go on things. I strongly believe that people should stop labeling each other though.)
    I couln't agree more with you...Hey I just paid for Patronage so I could have access to those OFF areas. I personally don't care for a nametag...and wouldn't mind an option to turn it off if I wanted too. I just like to be able to access the whole site. I've been a lurker a long time before I ever joined and recently got into mead making. I feel there is plenty of information here as well as some VERY EDUCATED mead makers here. I've seen Oskaar Posts on Many boards so I know it will be money very well spent!

    ...and thats my .02¢


    That's all I have to say about that. (in my best FG voice)

  6. #26

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    For some reason, I'm reminded of Monty Python ...

    EverGreenman: Look, I was just pointing out that rank icons create class distinctions. I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish Inquisition.

    Cardinal Fang: NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

  7. Default

    Ok, can i just say I love this site.......................Thats it.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 1996
    Location
    Youngsville, NC
    Posts
    1,608

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    ::tone - conversational discussion, not confrontational::

    Interesting. Pete & I are not promoting classism, just making it easier for folks to recognize those who have the experience to give reliable answers to questions, and acknowledging those who contribute their funds to keep it all going. Is it labeling people to indicate those who are experienced, and those who support the site? I think you're reading a lot into what is just an acknowledgment of contribution of time, knowledge and cash.

    As to the patronage acknowledgment, we don't do 'secret' stuff in the patron boards, I offer them their own space as a reward because they chose to help me pay for the site, to give them a place that is solely devoted to more advanced meadmaking techniques.

    Since the entire cost of this site comes from my personal pockets, and I am for all intents and purposes unemployed (the web design business is suffering from the recession too), I think it only right and proper to acknowledge their kind contributions in a visible manner. This is no different than a park putting a person's name on a brick in the walkway acknowledging their donation. That isn't classism, it is gratitude.

    I doubt you can find any decent forum that doesn't have 'administrator' or 'moderator' or 'programming god' or some other title on those who are either accomplished or who run the place. You can't identify the players without a scorecard. Would you rather know if the person you're asking a question to has 1 month or 10 years experience? I would. I don't ask Joe Smoe who got a jar of honey last month and decided to make mead for recipe advice, I ask Pete, who has 30 *years* experience. It isn't classism to want to ask your questions of someone with more experience in a skill than someone with less.

    90% of this board and the site are open to the public, you don't even have to register to read and search. More than 50% of my site traffic is unregistered visitors. If I was promoting 'classism', I'd lock it down to all but paying members to 'keep out the rabble', as it were, if I were an elitist. However, I believe information should be available to all, so I keep the forum open. I make parts only for patrons so that I have something to offer those that support the site with their hard-earned money. It is no different than a ticket discount for museum patrons would be.

    As far as feeling 'put off' because you've been asked to use the search function here on the site, see the quote from the FAQ below. We've 60K+ posts, that comprise a very detailed discussion of meadmaking. What is the point of having that vast compendium of knowledge if you don't use it?

    Item 8 in the FAQ (first forum board, and the agreement you clicked 'ok' on when you signed up): "8. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! This site got started because I was doing my research on meadmaking and created a web page to give me a place to keep my research. The search tool for the forum is located here, and the rest of the site has lots of articles, tips and info, read it first before asking a question that may have been asked dozens of times before.

    Don't expect us to do your homework for you. You came here to learn, so study and learn! We're not here to hold your hand, I'm not your mother, and the mead world doesn't owe you instant answers because you don't care to do a search. I spend hours every day searching tech-support forums to learn more about the dozens of tools that run this site, and I don't expect someone to hold my hand, and neither should you."

    I get asked 10-20 times a day 'tell me how to make mead'. My time is short too. Running this place is in itself a full-time job, and I've also got my business to run. Nearly everyone here has full-time jobs (sometimes more than one), and they take their personal time to answer questions. We reserve the right to not answer questions that have been asked umpteen times before. I suspect if you had answered them as many times as we had, you'd tell someone to 'use the search function' too.

    Did you not come here to learn? And learning, unless it has changed markedly since my college years, involves research. That is why we have the search function. You may have noticed that we don't get surly when people ask these questions, we politely point them to the search. Most forums you'd get flamed for that.

    I spend probably 10-15 hours a week searching out information on the web for clients, to figure out how to fix an issue here or on a client site, to find new and interesting mead information or links, or just to learn a new tool or skill. I spent 3 hours research an upgrade of the main site yesterday, and never made a single post, because research gave me the answers I needed. I don't log onto the Vbulletin forums and say 'my forum is broke, how do I fix it?'. I'd not only get shot down, I'd get shot down in an extremely hostile manner. So, I surf the forums, using the search tool and Google, and 9 times out of 10, find my answer. Pete and I did that with a permissions issue last night. It took us 20 minutes, and we had our answer and fixed the problem. On many of the forums I've used to learn things, I don't have an ID, because I've always found my answer by searching. When the answer isn't in the search, *then* I post my question, always prefaced with 'I searched the forums, and didn't find the answer to this'.

    "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for life."

    We're not here to tell each person who arrives how to make mead, we're here to learn ourselves, myself included. And the information here *is* here because myself and many others *did* use the search functions here and out on the greater web to learn. This site is the compilation of many peoples' search for knowledge, and is there for anyone to use, if they'll just take the time to find it.
    Wassail!

    Vicky Rowe
    Owner & Webmistress, Gotmead.com
    Executive Director, American Mead Makers Association
    http://www.mead-makers.org
    Making Mead since 1995

  9. #29
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    Evergreen, CO (west of and above the Denver smog!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    Hey, Greenman,

    YMMV - I am a grumpy old lady... :-)

    Leonora
    Whaddaya mean, old??
    Na zdrowie!

    Wayne B.

  10. #30

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    Vintage. A fine aged Vintage...

    *grin*

    Leonora
    "Spanky, Sparky, Buckwheat the Fourteenth - doing the right thing starts first thing in the morning, not after you are caught." -- John Criton FarScape

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazed View Post
    I couln't agree more with you...Hey I just paid for Patronage so I could have access to those OFF areas. I personally don't care for a nametag...and wouldn't mind an option to turn it off if I wanted too. I just like to be able to access the whole site. I've been a lurker a long time before I ever joined and recently got into mead making. I feel there is plenty of information here as well as some VERY EDUCATED mead makers here. I've seen Oskaar Posts on Many boards so I know it will be money very well spent!

    ...and thats my .02¢


    That's all I have to say about that. (in my best FG voice)
    I can see where the badge indicating "patron" (i.e. "paid") status is potentially off-putting to some... but honestly, if you were running a service that stays online in large part because some of the participating folks were appreciative enough to fork over some hard earned $$ to keep it alive, wouldn't you want to recognize them publicly somehow? If you're not interested in advertising the fact that you have enough spare cash to contribute, maybe it makes sense, for you, to turn off the patron badge. But the mentor, admin, etc., badges are there to reassure folks not yet familiar with all the folks in our community that they are getting advice from people who at least have some knowledge of what they speak.

    I think that Vicky summed up the situation very well, but she didn't cover this key point that I made in my earlier post: We're all fiercely loyal to this "place," as virtual as it might be, because those of us with some experience in the hobby recognize it for the gem that it is. That doesn't mean we want to be offensive to newcomers or to discourage them -- in fact we want anyone interested in the hobby to consider participating freely and openly, because we have lots to share with each other and we all learn from the inputs of others. Pete has only put one or two people here "on probation" in the time that I've been active on Gotmead, and in both cases it was for inflammatory speech that had nothing at all to do with meadmaking -- there are always trolls out there, and Pete's a pretty effective sergeant-at-arms, minimizing the time and effort the rest of us have to expend to put up with that sort of nonsense. Again, the key point that I want to make is that of all the mead related lists and forums out there, this one is the only one that concentrates on mead, and it is also the only one that operates entirely without corporate backing. We keep this site going because we WANT it to continue.
    Na zdrowie!

    Wayne B.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 1996
    Location
    Youngsville, NC
    Posts
    1,608

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    ::sniff:: Aww, you guys.....thanks Wayne. You've no idea how happy it makes me to hear stuff like that. It make these late night sessions puttering around on the site adding toys worthwhile......like the worldwide Google membermap I'm testing right now....
    Wassail!

    Vicky Rowe
    Owner & Webmistress, Gotmead.com
    Executive Director, American Mead Makers Association
    http://www.mead-makers.org
    Making Mead since 1995

  13. #33
    Join Date
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    Location
    Youngsville, NC
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by osluder View Post
    EverGreenman, RUN, DUDE! You poked a stick in the hive and pissed off the Queen Bee now.

    Seriously, in EverGreenman's defense, "ranking" people does create class distinctions, but that is the reality of an online community that offers "premium" levels of access. The simple fact is such distinctions can be put to good or bad use. In my short experience with the site, it is all good so far. He is just warning us to keep vigilant against their bad use.

    By the way, is there a secret handshake?
    Osluder, I'm not pissed. I *am* hurt that our effort to 'put their name on a brick' to express gratitude to those who've pitched in their time and money is degraded in this way. It is sad that there are those who suspect and accuse the worst of intentions without first finding out what was intended. I take solace that those who know Pete and I are aware that our goal here was to express visible thanks (a virtual engraved brick, if you will), rather than the ignoble purpose that has been suggested here by some.
    Wassail!

    Vicky Rowe
    Owner & Webmistress, Gotmead.com
    Executive Director, American Mead Makers Association
    http://www.mead-makers.org
    Making Mead since 1995

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hartford, Huntingdon, United Kingdom
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    My Social Networking

    Add sandman on Facebook

    Cool

    Ahh... I pays my money, I takes my value. Those who have tasted the results of what I've learned here can vouch for the value I gained from my "seriously minimal" investment.

    The labels look cool, the reasoning behind them just helps to clarify who's more likely to have good advice. I think the "Mentor" label is especially good to see for someone who has a serious question or is really looking to get an in-depth answer to a technical issue.

    Call it what you want. When my expiration date comes around I'll be the first to send my check in again.

    ::Just another one of those people who lurked for several months before becoming a patron::

    ...and that's my .02

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    My Social Networking

    Add sandman on Facebook

    Thumbs up

    Oh, one more thing...
    To Vicky, Pete, Wayne, Jared, and everyone else I've learned so much from. THANK YOU!!!
    You guys rock out loud in my book.

  16. #36

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    Hmm, I guess now it's my turn to express shock and dismay. I'm honestly a little taken aback at the progression of this thread, so come on folks: "Relax. Don't Worry. Have a home-brew."

    Vicky, you and some others are reading way too much into what's been said in this thread. Despite your denial, the tone and words of your last post indicate you are pissed. I appreciate that Got Mead? is clearly a labor-of-love and some might thus take negative criticism personally, but I honestly don't think anyone said or meant anything all that disparaging. (Incidentally, my original "pissed Queen Bee" comment was meant in jest hence the grin emoticon at the end of it. People, let's not forget those serve a real purpose or ignore them as "cutesy".)

    Let's quickly recap, folks: A new site feature was announced. Someone made a critical statement. They didn't rant or rave, just expressed their simple opinion. A variety of people immediately jumped on that post with responses ranging from very measured to frankly quite defensive. I thought my posts were fairly even-handed, but in hindsight I guess I was just adding fuel to the fire and should have stayed out of it. (I am still waiting for someone to tell me why elitism is a bad thing. Populism is certainly not everything it's cracked up to be! )

    I think we all understand fully (by now, if not before) the intent of the feature and most of us agree it's a good thing. (Re-read my posts: I was one of those on the side of "goodness".) That I have opted to be a paying member speaks to the fact I consider Got Mead? an effort worth supporting and I'll be in line behind Sandman when it's time to renew.

    People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? ... Let’s try to work it out. -- Rodney King, 1992
    Now, let's all take a deep breath and put this thread to rest ... please.

  17. #37
    Join Date
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    Look,

    This thread needed to run it's course because there was an inflamatory statement made early on by Evergreenman about elitism in these forums based on a simple grafic moniker. This after only one month and 28 posts worth of exposure to this community.

    Personally I think his post was dumb-assed and not really well considered or stated. Everyone has issues; but to project ones personal issues onto this forum is entirely unfair and is obviously anathema to what the people in this mead community have in their hearts as evidenced by the responses. Whatever Evergreenman's issues are, they are HIS issues and not the issues of our Patrons, Mentors or Administrators.

    Evergreenman, I hope you are able to get past your aversion to our graphical acknowledgment of hard work, selflessness and eagerness to help people who are motivated to learn about mead. We'll understand either way. Remember that going forward there are rules you agreed to when you registered which require you use the facilities of this forum (i.e. search tool, etc.) and you may trust that you, along with everyone else here will be held to them. I think you'll find that the search tool and the similar thread feature provide a ton of information readily accessible at your fingertips (which to your credit you have already acknowledged in other threads) and will help you along the way as you research mead and meadmaking.

    I'm capping this thread and locking it down. Any further "last word" posts will be moderated.

    Oskaar
    Is it tasty . . . precious?

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