raspberry mead tastes pretty bad

Joshnir · Oct 12, 2009

So 3 months ago I did my first 2 one gallon batches. The first one was a standard JAO that seems to be okay besides tasting a bit yeasty still and having some alcohol burn/acidity. The second one is a black raspberry and I pretty much made it the same way I did the JAO except instead of oranges and cinnamon I used one peeled lemon, 1 pound of red raspberries, half pound of black raspberries, one teaspoon of earl grey tea and a whole vanilla bean. Fermentation stopped at about 5 weeks just like the JAO, I let it sit another 3 weeks then racked it and let it age another month. I just tasted it and it would be pretty good besides the weird after taste I'm getting from it. The best way I can describe it is it tastes like if you lick the rubber stopper the air lock goes into. Is there any way the rubber stopper could of made it taste that way? I wouldn't think so but that's the best way I can describe it. Thanks for any insight on this guys.

akueck · Oct 12, 2009

Rubber-flavored phenols can be a sign of stressed out yeast and/or too high of a fermentation temperature. What temperature did you ferment at?

Joshnir · Oct 13, 2009

Right around 68-70 degrees, I have all of my one gallon batches sitting in my closet with the door closed. Maybe I should pay more attention to the temp while my stuff is fermenting, didn't give that aspect too much thought to be honest. I thought it would be fine as long as it wasn't way too hot or too cold. What do you mean by the yeast being stressed out? What causes that to occur? Thanks for the reply.

akueck · Oct 13, 2009

Yeast get stressed when their environment is not "just right". They are picky little guys. Extremes in temperature, pH, and sugar content; too little nitrogen and other nutrients; too little oxygen during the first phase of fermentation; lots of things can stress yeast out. Often you'll get a signal that they are cranky--sulfur smells are a classic one.

Best way to troubleshoot is if you can give us a rundown of exactly everything you did. Include any SG readings, all ingredients, and all process details.

Joshnir · Oct 13, 2009

Okay well pretty much I just followed the JAO directions. Cleaned/sanitized everything really well w/ one step. Mixed about 3lbs of slightly warmed clover honey with half a gallon of water in a 1 gallon glass jug. Cleaned and sliced a lemon in 1/4's, peeled it and put it in with a Vanilla bean, 25 raisins and 1 teaspoon of earl grey tea. Smashed up the raspberries while they were thawing out from the freezer, threw them in. Filled with water til about 6-7 inches from the top of the jug, added 1 gram of fermaid k and shook the hell out of the jug for about 5 minutes. Then I added the teaspoon of Fleismanns, swirled it around a little bit, put on the stopper/air lock and let it sit untouched for about 5-6 weeks. Then I racked it and let it sit another 5-6 weeks. I didn't take a SG because I didn't have a hydrometer at the time. Temp stayed at about 68-70 the whole time in a dark closet. I let the raspberries float on top the whole time because the JAO recipe said not to touch it, I realize now that I should of pushed them down into the jug after a lot more research. I wish I woould of researched stuff a little more because I really like raspberry mead and it would be very good if it wasnt for the rubber taste.

Medsen Fey · Oct 13, 2009

Did the honey itself have any of that "rubber stopper" taste? Sometimes if it was not handled and stored properly by the producers and packers, honey can have some aroma and flavor that is "off."

When you do have something with an "off" phenolic flavor, there are some things you can try. Number 1 is time - a lot of them will change over time as the various compounds mix and mingle and polymerize and precipitate. This is a very young mead. In 6 months that flavor may be completely gone.

If not, there are some things that can bind phenol compounds including PVPP (a fining agent), and even yeast ("yeast fining" there's a thread in the Patron's section on this). These may be options to consider if the magic of time does not cure the problem.

I hope it turns out well.

And Welcome to GotMead!!

Medsen

wayneb · Oct 13, 2009

One question - did you notice any hydrogen sulfide odors (like rotten eggs, "scented" propane gas, or similar) coming out of the fermenter while it was fermenting?

Often a "rubbery" aroma and flavor comes from diethyl sulfide, which is one of a number of disulfide compounds that can be created when H2S (created by some yeasts when they are fermenting in a nutrient poor environment) reacts with ethyl alcohol.

The bad news is if that is what is in your mead, unlike most phenolics that will chemically break down with age, diethyl sulfide is a chemically stable compound and will be there essentially forever unless you are willing to take some chances and chemically treat the batch with things that are potentially toxic if not handled properly.

UPDATE: Diethyl sulfide is really a "mercaptan." It is diethyl disulfide that is the disulfide compound. Neither one is good in a mead. The diethyl disulfide smells more like burnt rubber; the sulfide is more the "rubber stopper" smell.

akueck · Oct 13, 2009

Oh, that is very interesting. I didn't know there were sulfides that were rubbery too. I guess that makes good sense, the thing that makes rubber rubbery is sulfur.

Medsen Fey · Oct 13, 2009

Joshnir, you should probably take a glass of your mead and try a little test. First add a pinch of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and dissolve it in well, then add a copper penny (pre 1982) and swirl. If the rubber stopper character goes away then wayneb is correct and you have a mercaptan causing the problem. If so, you'll need to takes steps to remove it from the rest of the batch sooner rather than later.

afdoty · Oct 13, 2009

Joshnir said:
Fermentation stopped at about 5 weeks just like the JAO, I let it sit another 3 weeks then racked it and let it age another month.

A couple years ago I did a melomel from juice made from apple, pear and passion fruit. This fermented through and was allowed to sit on the gross lees for several weeks. Guess what.... it stinks... Like a burnt rubber tire...yuck.

While mine was an intentional "experiment", it does show that proper fermentation management and proper nutrition are important.

And after 2 years, it still stinks. This is something that didn't age out (one more bottle left. See what it's like next year).

wildoates · Oct 13, 2009

And still he drinks it.

Angelic Alchemist · Oct 13, 2009

wildoates said:
And still he drinks it.

Back in India, he could just distill it. Here in the states, I gift my epic fails to broke friends who are tired of drinking malt liquor.

afdoty · Oct 13, 2009

wildoates said:
And still he drinks it.

Ya just got to keep trying.......

wildoates · Oct 13, 2009

If you drink enough of it you won't notice that it tastes bad.

Joshnir · Oct 13, 2009

Medsen Fey- As I recall the honey tasted just fine. It was just clover honey from Safeway.
wayneb- nope smelled fine while it was fermenting.

Joshnir · Oct 13, 2009

Medsen Fey said:
Joshnir, you should probably take a glass of your mead and try a little test. First add a pinch of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and dissolve it in well, then add a copper penny (pre 1982) and swirl. If the rubber stopper character goes away then wayneb is correct and you have a mercaptan causing the problem. If so, you'll need to takes steps to remove it from the rest of the batch sooner rather than later.

I'll give this a shot tonight. I have an acid blend, would that work? I got my Compleat Meadmaker book today and have already read about 90% of it so I have a much better grasp of fermentation management and meadmaking in general now. This batch was kind of an experiment to see if I could make a decent melomel using the JAO recipe. Thanks for all the help guys.

Medsen Fey · Oct 13, 2009

Joshnir said:
I'll give this a shot tonight. I have an acid blend, would that work?

No, you need ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to convert the mercaptans to sulfide that can then be bound by copper. You local health food store should have some in crystalline form.

wayneb · Oct 13, 2009

Actually the ascorbic acid converts disulfides to mono-sulfides (including mercaptans) which then react with the copper to form insoluble precipitates. If you only have mercaptan contamination the copper will work by itself, and it will do so almost instantly. If disulfides are your problem, then you need the ascorbic acid and adding it plus a penny to a sample won't be enough to tell if it is going to work. The ascorbic acid actually disassociates the disulfides relatively slowly (could take several days to several weeks, depending on the level of contamination).

Medsen Fey · Oct 14, 2009

Thanks, Wayne (there's nothing like writing it backwards :confused3: ).

And yes, it can take several days for treatment with ascorbic acid and copper to produce clearing of the sulfur smells in a batch. But the testing can be done in few minutes per the BCAWA.

The H2S, sulfides and mercaptan will all be removed very quickly by copper, but if you use a penny it needs to be clean and shiny to have a reactive surface. Reducing the disulfides can take time, but you apparently see improvement in the time it takes to do the test.

wildoates · Oct 14, 2009

Medsen Fey said:
Thanks, Wayne (there's nothing like writing it backwards :confused3: ).

And yes, it can take several days for treatment with ascorbic acid and copper to produce clearing of the sulfur smells in a batch. But the testing can be done in few minutes per the BCAWA.

The H2S, sulfides and mercaptan will all be removed very quickly by copper, but if you use a penny it needs to be clean and shiny to have a reactive surface. Reducing the disulfides can take time, but you apparently see improvement in the time it takes to do the test.

Jenn is thinking about all the elemental copper in the chemical supply room...

raspberry mead tastes pretty bad

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