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Pineapple Melomel overshot the mark! Add more honey?

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Altricious

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. I guess I just want to know if I should start another batch and do it RIGHT, this time.

You know, the last time I asked a question like this I was advised something along the lines of "Do both; tell us how it turns out!"

So, presuming you're not too broke to do it, why not make a second batch? You can see if your vigorous fermentation was a fluke and a year from now you can compare both batches to see if there's even a subtle difference from the "wrong" stuff you did.
 

Earendil

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May 30, 2008
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Thanks Again!

Thanks, Chevette Girl! I laughed at myself when I took your simple but incisive test!

You gave me more than information; you gave me perspective. I had largely reconciled myself to accept whatever happens with grace, but I do want to know how to think and proceed properly in the future. After all, I've got meads to make!

Rule of Thumb: Feeding until 1/3rd sugar-break and aeration until 1/2 sugar-break; I think I've got it.

Rule of Other Thumb: Try to scale feeding/aeration to the projected time to the sugar-break; if a fast fermentation, increase the dosage accordingly (inversely proportional). Makes sense!

Thankfully, there were only two rules; I'm running out of thumbs.

As for feeding; I'm afraid I fed as I aerated, so they got 4tsp of Nutrient/Energizer mixture during that last 2 days.

Thanks Again; your advice and perspective have been really helpful!
 

Earendil

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I Accept!

You know, the last time I asked a question like this I was advised something along the lines of "Do both; tell us how it turns out!"

So, presuming you're not too broke to do it, why not make a second batch? You can see if your vigorous fermentation was a fluke and a year from now you can compare both batches to see if there's even a subtle difference from the "wrong" stuff you did.


What an excellent idea! I will do just that! In a couple of weeks, I'll start another one. Honestly, even now, this one smells (and tastes) so good that I'd love to make another one! I'll try to get it started on the weekend of 5/11-5/12 and will start a mead-log on that one. I'll post a link to it on this thread.

As a preliminary filllip, though, I suspect that the fermentation was not a fluke. I made another pineapple mead (the one that started this thread) and, with a starting gravity of 1.124, it fermented to 1.000 in less than 11 days. The activity was impressive; the best I'd ever seen ... until this one. This one has more pineapples and more honey.

But as I said, I'll report my results in a mead-log for that mead; I'll post more about this one in this thread later.

Thanks, Altricious, for that EXCELLENT idea! Aloha!
 

Earendil

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"Yeast Gone Wild!" - and a question (naturally!)

In the last 2 days, this mead has gone from:

4/28/2012 - Specific Gravity: 1.018
4/29/2012 - Specific Gravity: 1.016
4/30/2012 - Specific Gravity: 1.013

This means that the Lalvin 7B-1122 has taken this mead from 1.140 to 1.013 or a whopping 127 points ... so far. And it's done it in less than a week! TAKeyser and triarchy, take note ...

It looks like I'm headed to back-sweetening land, if I want a sweet pineapple mead.

SO ... on Pineapple Melomel #3 (the one I'm going to start on 5/11), I'm going to go for a 1.160 original gravity ... and at least 7 pineapples. I cannot believe this yeast, which has been so predictable in the past, has gone so bonkers over pineapple! It's like they're at some sort of south-seas Mardi Gras, in there, partying their little buds off!

Question: I'll be leaving tomorrow, to help my family celebrate my father's 86th birthday. I'll be gone for a week and will not be here to punch down the fruit cap. The mead has only been on the fruit for 6 days (but then EVERYTHING has happened in 6 days!). I could arrange for a friend to do a punch-down once or twice a day, while I'm gone. If you were in my spot, would you rack the mead off the fruit at this point? How long should it sit on the fruit? Is there some way to gauge whether the must has gotten pretty much everything it's going to get from the fruit? What would you advise?
 
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Chevette Girl

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I generally find with softer fruit that if the fruit is completely mushy and releases almost all its water (if you set it in a strainer or something, and pinching the fruit mush doesn't yield any firm bits or anything), it's probably given you all it's got.

I don't usually find two weeks on the fruit is detrimental, so if you can get someone to punch it down for you that would probably work.

Another option might be to rack it but save the mush and shove it in the freezer, and if when you get back you find it's not pineappley enough for you, you can thaw the mush and put it back in for a few more days.

 

Earendil

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I generally find with softer fruit that if the fruit is completely mushy and releases almost all its water (if you set it in a strainer or something, and pinching the fruit mush doesn't yield any firm bits or anything), it's probably given you all it's got.

I don't usually find two weeks on the fruit is detrimental, so if you can get someone to punch it down for you that would probably work.

Another option might be to rack it but save the mush and shove it in the freezer, and if when you get back you find it's not pineappley enough for you, you can thaw the mush and put it back in for a few more days.


When I punched it down this morning, I tried taking some of the fruit out in a large spoon and tasted it. It tasted like pineapple. Then, thinking that I might just be tasting the must (which is very pineappley), I rinsed it gently to wash off the juice and then ate it; it had almost no flavor at all. It would seem that almost all, if not all, of the pineapple flavor has gone into the must.

I'll taste it again, this afternoon, and if it still seems that way, I think I'm going to rack it, but I will follow your advice and bag and freeze the mush.

By the bye, you mentioned that "two weeks on the fruit is usually not detrimental" (edit:mine); what limit you consider detrimental and what can happen to it that makes it detrimental?

Thanks for the advice! Have a Wonderful Day!
 
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Earendil

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Actually, if I find that the mush, once frozen and then thawed, is not as palatable as it might be, it occurs to me that I could just ... you guessed it ... add more pineapple!!

This would be like adding the fruit at the secondary fermentation stage. I can't really see the necessity for doing this; it is pretty intensely pineapple, in there, but just in case ...

Aloha!
 

Chevette Girl

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By the bye, you mentioned that "two weeks on the fruit is usually not detrimental" (edit:mine); what limit you consider detrimental and what can happen to it that makes it detrimental?

I've had a couple of fruits left longer than two weeks start developing a woody taste to them, which did age out. I've also done the JAO thing with a lot of fruits (leaving them in until they sink) and I don't think any of them turned out badly for it.

Most of what you'd want out of your fruit is out after about a week, so you're probably fine to pitch the mush if it doesn't taste like much anymore. Another hint that you've gotten everything you're going to get out of it is that it doesn't taste sweet anymore.
 

Earendil

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Pineapple Meads - An Update

It has now been almost 4 months since the Pineapple Mead phase of my life began and I thought it would be a good idea to report my results. I'll summarize the meads I've made, their current status and the things I've learned along the way.

My first Pineapple Mead was started on 3-11-2012 and formed the basis of this thread (see posting #1). Its history can be traced by reading the first dozen or so posts in this thread. I used 3 pineapples and enough honey to take the starting SG to 1.124, desiring a medium-sweet mead.

PLEASE NOTE: All starting SG's are given with the fruit already added.

To my surprise, it fermented from a starting SG of 1.124 to complete dryness; the Lalvin 71B-1122 I used ate all of the .124 of available sugars and did it in 11 days. That mead, now four months old, seems to be maturing reasonably well; it tastes young and is as dry as can be but it has a lovely, almost banana-like nose and a delicate, floral flavour. It's SG, as of today, is 1.000

=======================

Then I started a second Pineapple Mead ("Maui Melomel"), also outlined in this thread (posting #13). I tried to compensate for the pronounced fermentation of the first one by adding more honey and more pineapples (7 pineapples, this time). It had a starting SG of 1.142, an attempt on my part to compensate for the dryness of the first one.

This mead may turn out to be a sherry. The problem was that it fermented much faster than the first one, blowing its way through the 1/3 and 1/2 sugar breaks in about 18 hours!! I was completely unprepared for this possibility; I was used to checking my SG and pH levels once every day or so (which is perfectly satisfactory with a 'normal' fermentation) and was amazed by this kamikaze fermentation rate.

Even worse, I continued my feeding and oxygenation regime for the full three days, as prescribed in the NewBee Guide before I realized that that might not be appropriate (see posting #18 - that's "eighteen", in case the site has inserted a smiley) and by then it was, unfortunately, too late. Also, like the first one, it fermented to a lower gravity than I expected, even with the compensating starting SG, ending up at 1.010.

That mead is now about 10 weeks old and already has a slight sherry-like cast to it, although it is not overwhelming; in fact, I'm not sure it's really even whelming <|;-}>>>. It is darker in colour and more intensely flavoured. I am going to let it age for a year or so and I must say that it tastes pretty good at this time, the faint sherry cast giving the mead an almost 'smoky' flavour (I don't know how else to describe it). I cannot say that I expect much from this mead, though I continue to hope, but if it doesn't become a great mead, it may yet become a good pineapple-sherry mead for sipping, cooking, barbecue sauces, etc.

=======================

Now we get to the third Pineapple Mead ("Pineapple Mayhem"); the one I made following Altricious' excellent advice (see posting #21). This one was made with the same basic recipe shown in posting #1 with several important differences:

1) I increased the honey and the pineapple even more; I took the starting gravity to 1.160 and used 16 small pineapples in it (about 2 gallons of cored, peeled, finely chopped pineapple). I was determined to come out with something medium-sweet or sweet this time; can you tell?

2) I based the feeding regime on one that Chevette Girl recommended and which I adapted somewhat. That regime is basically:
a) Calculate the total DAP/Nutrient at about 1 tsp per gallon
b) Calculate the total Energizer/Fermaid-K at about 3/4 tsp per gallon
c) Add 1/2 the Energizer/Fermaid-K at pitch
d) Add 1/2 the DAP/Nutrient at the end of the lag
e) Mix the remainder of the DAP/Nutrient and the Energizer/Fermaid-K together
and add 1/6 of the mix with each feeding (assuming 2 feedings per day)

NOTE: Step 'e' is based upon a 'normal' fermentation and should be accelerated
if the fermentation is faster than 'normal'. Basically, all the feedings should
take place by the 1/3 sugar break. Aeration should stop after the 1/2 break.


3) This time I monitored the fermentation with care, using all the things I learned (and the advice I got) during the previous attempts. I checked it every 6 hours or so. Per Chevette Girl's excellent advice, I accelerated the feeding and aeration to match the drop in gravity through the 1/2 sugar break and racked it off the fruit after about 9 days, when the fruit, after being rinsed in water, no longer tasted particularly flavourful.

This mead is WONDERFUL!! At this time, it is about 5 weeks old and, even young, it is really promising; in fact, I'm having trouble staying out of it! It has a pronounced pineapple flavour and shows every sign of being ... well ... booty-kicking, to put it in technical terms.

Its only problem is that it is sweeter than I expected; I started with an SG of 1.160, as I mentioned and, based upon the voracious fermentations I experienced with the first two, I thought it would settle at about 1.025 or so. Instead, it settled at 1.060. I can only speculate that the pineapple has some enzyme or component that, beyond a certain level, suppresses the yeast's ability to ferment. I tried cutting a sample of this, adding about 1/3 filtered water and it was nothing short of awesome ... without any real aging at all.

There is another really surprising aspect to this third Pineapple Mead ... well, two, actually. First, there is a sort of smoky layer, about 1-1/2" thick at the top of the mead, as it sits in the carboy. This layer is not opaque nor is there a sharp division between the crystal-clear mead below it and the 'dark' layer on the top.

Second, there is another layer, very close to the colour of the mead, about 1/3 of the way from the bottom of the carboy. In fact, the colour is so close that it is hard to discern unless you are looking at it from slightly above or below the plane of division of the layers. This division, unlike the dark layer on the top, is quite sharp; as sharp as the division between oil and water, though it is so faint that it is, as I said, difficult to discern unless one looks closely. In fact, these layers are interesting enough that I thought I'd show them to you; you can see them at:

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/album.php?albumid=43

I set this carboy up today to rack the mead (last racked on June 10th) and will try to sample each layer tomorrow, if I can, using the racking cane as a pipette, and will report any difference in taste that I can detect in a subsequent posting.

In the meantime, I want to say Mahalo! to TAKeyser, Altricious, Matrix4b, and ESPECIALLY to Chevette Girl, whose guidance and sage advice gave me many formerly-missing links and important insights that have made these Pineapple Meads possible.

And Aloha to All!

P.S. - Y'know? ... I've sampled all three of them (about 1 oz of each) while composing this post and I have to say ... they are all pretty damned good. In fact, I really wish you guys were here in my living room, so we could all share a glass or two ...

Again; Aloha!
 
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Chevette Girl

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Well, it certainly sounds like you've benefitted well from this learning experience!!

And if you find you don't really like the dry one so dry, you can always mix it with the extra sweet one. Or make a batch of dry mead and blend it with the overly sweet one.

I suspect the reason that #2 is darker and maybe has that hint of being sherry-like is because of the late aeration causing some oxidation. If you like sherry, you may consider it to be a good thing. I find if it's oxidized like a sherry (rather than cardboard, which I've never had but some folks have reported) it lends a perceived sweetness in taste and aroma to even a dry wine.

As for the photos, it's possible that in photo #1, the layer you're seeing is just a sediment layer dropping out, my JAO's do that. That dark layer in the second and third photos might be oxidation, as you do seem to have a bit of headspace showing. If it tastes more sherry-like than the other layers, that's likely what's happened. Which is also a really cool learning experience for all of us if that is indeed what's going on, I've never seen it oxidize in layers like that :) Eagerly awaiting your report on taste differences!

 

Earendil

NewBee
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May 30, 2008
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Well, it certainly sounds like you've benefitted well from this learning experience!!

I have indeed! I think I am finally on the road to making reliably good meads. When I started, I ruined at least three or four due to things like leaving the mead on the lees too long, allowing too much exposure to air (in headspace or using oxygen) and other problematic practices that were not mentioned in the books I read when I started out. I have you and the others on the GotMead forums to thank for that ... and I DO thank you!


And if you find you don't really like the dry one so dry, you can always mix it with the extra sweet one. Or make a batch of dry mead and blend it with the overly sweet one.

I'll consider this. Hilariously, though, I found myself quite reconciled to it after drinking an ounce or so ... kind of like Rory Brandybuck, one of Bilbo Baggins' old friends:

Old Rory Brandybuck, in return for much hospitality, got a dozen bottles of Old Winyards: a strong red wine from the Southfarthing, and now quite mature, as it had been laid down by Bilbo's father. Rory quite forgave Bilbo, and voted him a capital fellow after the first bottle.


I suspect the reason that #2 is darker and maybe has that hint of being sherry-like is because of the late aeration causing some oxidation.

That may be; I think so too. In this case, though, it is quite palatable - see quote above! <|;-}>>>


As for the photos, it's possible that in photo #1, the layer you're seeing is just a sediment layer dropping out, my JAO's do that. That dark layer in the second and third photos might be oxidation, as you do seem to have a bit of headspace showing. [...] I've never seen it oxidize in layers like that :)

A sediment layer dropping out did not occur to me but I'll check the layers for clarity and compare them today. I intended to rack it, as it has been on the yeast for about 3 weeks now and it seemed like a good idea. I stuck that yellow marker on the side of the carboy for purposes of illustration but I had the good luck to leave it there and will check today to see if the line has dropped after 24 hours or so. I may go ahead and rack it anyway and let the process complete itself after racking.

As for the dark layer being oxidation, while possible, I doubt it. Oxidation was one of my first lessons on this forum and I've been very careful to layer CO2 on all my meads any time it seems even vaguely appropriate! But I will taste later today and report back ...


Eagerly awaiting your report on taste differences!

As Merry Brandybuck would say "You shall have it!"

Have a Wonderful Day!
 

Altricious

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Jan 4, 2012
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Altricious' excellent advice

Who, me? I thought I was just feeding your addiction. ;)

My pineapple batches are sitting in carboys being ignored and I haven't started anything new since it's just too hot to ferment things. (I refuse to carry carboys up and down stairs.)
 

Soyala_Amaya

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Mar 21, 2011
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See, this is when you bring out the belgian yeasts that are SUPPOSED to be fermented hot! Then you get the thick, malty, delicious-ness from them...mmmm. (Can you tell what's waiting in my fridge for me?)
 

Earendil

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May 30, 2008
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Pineapple Meads - A Sedimental Journey

Well, Chevette Girl, I've had a chance to check things out and here are my observations:

I had a racking cane that had broken at the crook; I sawed this off and made a pipette out of it. Using that, I carefully sampled each layer of the mead and found that:

1) The dark layer at the top shows no sign whatever of being oxidized. It has an almost caramel-like flavour (again, I'm trying to pick best subjective term, well-aware that it is inadequate) and is very delicious; no hint of sherry-like characteristics here.

2) You were, I think, right about the sedimentation below the yellow marker, though I am not absolutely sure yet. The layer above the line of demarcation is clear as can be; the lower layer is not. The reason I am not sure is this: In taking the cover off of the carboy, this morning, I inadvertently pulled off the marker.

Instead, I made a small mark on the side of the carboy using a micro-point Sharpie. When I came back, some four hours later, I was surprised to find that the level had actually gone up about 1/4", which doesn't seem to make sense; logically, separating sediment should be going down, not up.

I tasted both 'levels' ("The Clear and the Unclear"; sounds like a movie, doesn't it?); both are heavenly. I marked the carboy again and am going to monitor it for the next day or so to see what it does. I'll report back at that time.

Cheers!
 

Earendil

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Sedimental Update

It's been two days and the layer of sediment(?) has remained very consistent. It seems to fluctuate, gradually rising about 3/16" during the middle of the day and then falling 3/16" at night. I keep the carboy covered and the thermometer shows almost no temperature variation between day and night. The temperature is very consistent at about 68˚-70˚F.

I'm not sure why the sediment seems to remain at this level but it's been over 3 weeks since I racked it off the fruit. I'm going to rack this weekend and will report on its progress as things unfold. I'll be most interested to see whether the dark layer at the top appears after racking and whether the sediment layer reappears. I'll keep you posted.

A Wonderful Weekend to All!
 

Earendil

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Another Pineapple Mead Update ("Pineapple Mead")

I started this thread back in Mid-March, 2012 while making the first of three batches of Pineapple Melomel (it started out as a mead and turned into a research project).

As I had posted information about all three of these meads in this thread, I thought it would be helpful to others who may come along to post follow-up information in the same thread.

With regard to the first batch ("Pineapple Mead", my batch #11):

When we left off, this batch had fermented to complete dryness, going from OG: 1.124 to FG: 1.000 in 11 days. Here is the Reader's Digest condensed version of its history since then:

Racking #1 - Racked into carboy on 3-21-2012 upon advice that fruit in the must
for longer than 2 or 2-1/2 weeks starts diminishing in taste. To my surprise, it had fermented to a final SG: 1.000

Racking #2 - Racked into carboy on 4-21-2012 - SG still 1.000 - tastes dry but mellow and nice

Racking #3 - Racked into carboy on 5-31-2012 - SG still 1.000 - tastes dry but mellow and nice

Racking #4 - Racked into carboy on 5-31-2012 - tastes dry but mellow, with a hint of sherry-like flavor but not unpleasant. I fear that I may have fed and aerated it later than I should, as I wasn't expecting the speed of the primary fermentation (see relevant postings above on aeration and nutrients in posting #31 of this thread, among others). Hopefully, it won't go very far down that path.

Racking #5 - Racked about 1/2 the batch (about 3 gallons) into a plastic fermenter on 9-3-2012, along with the crushed flesh of 4 fresh, ripe pineapples to see what difference in flavor a secondary addition of fruit would make. Saved about 3 gallons without the addition of fruit, in the carboy. CO2'd both containers.

NOTE: In earlier postings, I commented on the formation of a dark, cloudy layer, about 3 inches thick, on the top of the third batch of pineapple mead (my batch #13, dubbed 'Pineapple Mayhem'). When I checked the batch I'm reporting on now (#11) before racking it, I found that there was a layer of very fine sediment, about 2-1/2" thick, on the bottom of the carboy. The layer is so light and 'airy' that it resembles clouds and is as bodiless as clouds. Inevitably, some of this sediment went into each of the half-batches (I encouraged this in the spirit of inquiry); I'll report back on this as well.

You can view this layer in my album: http://www.gotmead.com/forum/album.php?albumid=45


I'll let the fruit-added half sit on the fruit for 2 to 2-1/2 weeks per Chevette Girl's excellent advice and will report back after that to let you know how it and the "no-fruit-added" half shape up.

I'll report on the other two pineapple meads in separate postings to try to keep the sub-threads from getting tangled up.

Best Wishes to All!
 
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Earendil

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May 30, 2008
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Another Pineapple Mead Update ("Maui Melomel")

This mead (my mead #12, dubbed 'Maui Melomel') was started to further explore the insane fermentation rate I discovered in the previous batch (#11, 'Pineapple Mead'). In case you haven't read the earlier posts in this thread dealing with this one, it crashed through the 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 sugar breaks in less than 24 hours!

Because I didn't expect this (and wasn't clever enough to anticipate the consequences), I fed and aerated this batch according to the NewBee Guide's 3-day course, resulting in both oxygenation and nutrient additions well after these breaks occurred.

I feared that this might result in the sherry-like quality that comes of exposure to oxygen after the 1/2 sugar break. And my fears have proved well-founded. Here's a condensed version of my mead log for this mead:

=========================

5-1-2012 - This morning, the must measures:
Current Gravity: 1.012
Current pH: 4.10

This evening, the must measures:
Current Gravity: 1.012
Current pH: 4.08

Decided to rack the mead off of the fruit into a carboy. Layered with CO2 and capped.

=========================

5-20-2012 - Sampled mead. Already amazingly clear. Tastes 'green' but already has a pronounced pineapple character. I have been ruminating on the amazing nature of these fermentations and have decided that mead #13 will push the envelope even further, taking the original gravity to 1.160 or thereabouts and using even more pineapples. I have decided to start this mead next weekend, if I can get the pineapples. Called the Co-op and talked to the produce manager who called back a couple of days later and said they are going to get a shipment of ripe Maui Gold Extra-Sweet Pineapples on Wednesday the 23rd. They'll be on sale, too! I'm going to go in and get them!

=========================

5-27-2012 - uncapped, smelled it and layered with CO2. Has a wonderfully 'gummy' pineapple smell. SG: 1.010 pH: 4.4

=========================

5-31-2012 - Racked mead - 2nd racking. Mead already pretty clear (though still a bit cloudy). Tastes pretty good (though still quite young). Bear in mind that this mead's fermentation was fed and aerated for longer than it should have been; the fermentation was so fast that I was unaware of it and kept feeding and aerating with oxygen for two days longer than should have been the case. It does have a very faint sherry-like quality but this is quite faint (so far) and it is otherwise quite nice, even though it is far from mature.

pH: 4.7
Specific Gravity: 1.010

=========================

9-1-2012 - Tasted mead - The sherry-like taste has become quite pronounced ... as I feared it would. This mead may turn out OK but I very much doubt it. The sherry-like quality is obvious and, though not unpleasant, is NOT what I want. I'm going to rack it and let it age further but I suspect that it is a cooking sherry. Damn! Damn! Damn!

Actually, I should note that another, earlier batch I made that went down Sherry Lane turned out to be a very passable sherry and is quite good both for drinking (when one wants sherry) and in cooking things like chicken and fish, etc. Perhaps the gods will smile on me with this one, too.

In future, I WILL monitor the first day's fermentation activity at 4-hour intervals, when doing pineapple meads (or ANY fermentation that gallops along like the pineapple ones have) and base my feeding and aeration regime on the rate of fermentation.

=========================

Best Wishes!
 

Chevette Girl

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I always check the SG every time I aerate for the first few days just to monitor in case I have a wild fermentation like this :)

And sherry's not so bad when you want sherry. I've intentionally oxidized a few of my wines and meads just to get the hint of that flavour.
 
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