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Thread: Everyones take on Sorbates?

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    OK but with the quick cyser and other, refrigeration helps settle the mead, but without out adding stabilizers if the temp get back to 65 degrees + would just re awkin them? Only ask since summer around the corner and I should be bottling soon, but I do tend to bulk carboy age and bottle and drink quickly just learning what I can to prevent MEA !

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legitapotimous View Post
    OK but with the quick cyser and other, refrigeration helps settle the mead, but without out adding stabilizers if the temp get back to 65 degrees + would just re awkin them? Only ask since summer around the corner and I should be bottling soon, but I do tend to bulk carboy age and bottle and drink quickly just learning what I can to prevent MEA !
    Yes it could start fermenting again when it warms back up. Depending how much viable yeast are left and sugars present you could always use beer bottles and caps instead of wine bottles and corks and if you get a little more fermentation it would carbonate the cyser.

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    Anyone know where I can pick up natural sulfites? I'd most likely be willing to do some 'sperimenting on it then.

    I'm really just too sensitive and not a chemical fan. No, the sulfites from the store are not natural, they're synthetic = !Good.

    How sensitive am I? Just to give you an idea I'll use my skin as an example...
    Take 3 loads of laundry and wash them. Use 1 fabric softener sheet in two dryers and two(2) fabric softener sheets with the last load. Toss them all into a pile when they're dry and mix them all up.

    I can pick out every piece of clothing from the dryer with 2 sheets... every time and in seconds. I can literally *feel* the fabric softener on my hands. I can also *feel* how the fabric softener affects my body and brain.... (I don't recommend chemicals for kids clothes at all)



    Sorbates? Now that I've looked into it for a minute... Here's a link that has other parents noting some of the same behaviors I've seen with my own child... also not fed processed food or foods wrong for their blood type. Chemicals have a serious mood/mental effect and it's blatantly obvious with my child.

    Nope... gonna stick with no sulfites and no sorbates. Just have to have a 1 gallon for each 5 gallon carboy... so I can bottle from the 1 gal and warm it up... see if it's 'ready' or not.

    As for lasting longer, tasting good longer? I really don't plan on making long term wines/meads... especially if I'm restricted to using a chemical stabilizer. It may just be low-level... but it's not good and it effects other things.

    With the pollution levels in society and the environment being so high these days... I believe my immune system needs to be fully focused on keeping me healthy, not fighting off stuff I'm drinking/eating.

    Happy Fermenting!

  4. #24
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    I'm not sure about natural sulfites, but if you're looking for semi sweet to sweet meads, you might be able to get away with not using sufites, as long as you stay with yeasts that have a low ABV tolerance. The trick would be to "max" out the yeast's tolerance so that they die off and stop fermenting.

    For example..

    say you use 71B. It has a tolerance of about 14%. Assuming that you have proper management, you will easily get 14%, but sometimes can get 16% out of it. You can continue to add honey, or follow the BD CF method to pull up the ABV so that it maxes out the yeasts tolerance, and then add just a little more to obtain the desired sweetness. Since the yeast are maxed out, they won't continue to ferment and it will add the sweetness that you are desiring.

    Hope this helps.
    Michael


    Not all those who wander are lost.
    -J.R.R Tolkien

  5. #25
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    If you're comfortable using them, use them. If you're not, don't. Just be aware that if you bottle anything with residual sugar, it's possible that fermentation can kick back up, even years later. I tend to carboy age for a year or two so I don't worry too much about those bottles but with quick sweet meads like JAO, I do keep an eye on them, I always have some in a screw-top or flip-top so I can see if it's building up pressure and I keep an eye on those for the first few months.

    Usually you're OK if the yeast are maxed out but you do have to be careful and make sure they're not just stalled out.
    "The main ingredient needed is 'time' followed closely by 'patience'." - The Bishop 2013
    "Good grief! If someone wanted to murder you, all they would have to do is ship you a 55 gallon barrel of honey and watch you document working yourself to death!" - Vance G
    "When you consider that laziness and procrastination are the fundamentals of great mead, it is a miracle that the mazer cup happens." Medsen Fey, 2014
    "Sure it can be done. I've never heard of it, but I do things I've never heard if all the time. That is the beauty of being a brewer!" - Loveofrose, 2014

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrewinNColorado View Post
    I'm not sure about natural sulfites, but if you're looking for semi sweet to sweet meads, you might be able to get away with not using sufites, as long as you stay with yeasts that have a low ABV tolerance. The trick would be to "max" out the yeast's tolerance so that they die off and stop fermenting.

    For example..

    say you use 71B. It has a tolerance of about 14%. Assuming that you have proper management, you will easily get 14%, but sometimes can get 16% out of it. You can continue to add honey, or follow the BD CF method to pull up the ABV so that it maxes out the yeasts tolerance, and then add just a little more to obtain the desired sweetness. Since the yeast are maxed out, they won't continue to ferment and it will add the sweetness that you are desiring.

    Hope this helps.
    I'm sure this will work well. That and a few 5-6 gallon glass carboys and I think I have a winner.

    It ain't easy being me... but I must say I get a bigger kick out of life than the next couple hundred folks. LOL

    Life is a Gas! Ferment some today! LOL

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    Do you have to use sulfites with sorbates when stabilzing or can you just use a small bit of sorbates to inactivate the yeast?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpog View Post
    Do you have to use sulfites with sorbates when stabilzing or can you just use a small bit of sorbates to inactivate the yeast?
    I may have this backward so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, sulfites are used to make the yeast go dormant, while sorbates are to keep them from reproducing. Both actions are necessary to prevent the yeasties from reactivating and finding any residual sugar to feed on.
    All the world's a nail to a child with a hammer.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpog View Post
    Do you have to use sulfites with sorbates when stabilzing or can you just use a small bit of sorbates to inactivate the yeast?
    Yes, you do need them both. Sulfites alone only last so long before the yeast can kick back up. I don't remember why Sorbates alone don't work, but you need them both.
    " ...no sense hauling empty carboys around when full ones take up just as much space. " -TheFlyingBeer (on HomeBrewTalk)

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAKeyser View Post
    Yes, you do need them both. Sulfites alone only last so long before the yeast can kick back up. I don't remember why Sorbates alone don't work, but you need them both.
    Can't some random bacteria feed on sorbates and produce bad things?

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Altricious View Post
    Can't some random bacteria feed on sorbates and produce bad things?
    That's what I was thinking the reason was, but couldn't remember if I was right or not so I just said you have to use them both lol
    " ...no sense hauling empty carboys around when full ones take up just as much space. " -TheFlyingBeer (on HomeBrewTalk)

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAKeyser View Post
    That's what I was thinking the reason was, but couldn't remember if I was right or not so I just said you have to use them both lol
    Well, I remember someone else posting it, so that's as much as I know.

  13. #33

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    sulphites don't do anything to your brewing yeasts. commercial yeasts are somewhat sulfite tolerant. the sulphites kill bacteria which can feed on the sorbate.
    also sorbate is more effective with sulphites present. which is why you need to add sorbate before the sulphites come out of the must.

    so pitch the sulphites, wait a short time for them to do their job but not that long that they come out of solution (i usually give them 5 minutes or so), then pitch the sorbate.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Altricious View Post
    Can't some random bacteria feed on sorbates and produce bad things?
    Plus, if the sorbates only stop the yeast from reproducing that wouldn't keep them from feeding.
    Or am I not correct on that?
    All the world's a nail to a child with a hammer.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunnyBunz View Post
    Plus, if the sorbates only stop the yeast from reproducing that wouldn't keep them from feeding.
    Or am I not correct on that?
    correct.

    however, you usually add sorbate after the yeast have finished ie converted all the sugar or reach their alcohol tolerance. i understand they will then die out naturally.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunnyBunz View Post
    I may have this backward so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, sulfites are used to make the yeast go dormant, while sorbates are to keep them from reproducing. Both actions are necessary to prevent the yeasties from reactivating and finding any residual sugar to feed on.
    To my understanding, this is correct. The sulphites stun the yeast but they can easily bounce back from it because as Tweak'e says, brewing yeasts are pretty hardy. The one-two punch will USUALLY prevent further fermentation if you want to backsweeten a batch, but I've occasionally had a batch where I have had to stabilize it twice to get it to stop, even though the yeast was at its tolerance.

    And the reason you don't want to use sorbates alone is that certain bacteria can eat sorbates and turn it into geraniols (geranuim flavoured compounds that as far as I have read, can not be removed from the mead afterwards). That said, the bacteria has to be present for this to happen, I have several times used sorbate alone (back beore I knew better) and haven't had one do that. Although they did slowly ferment for just a little while longer, but not enough to carbonate the wines, just enough that after you poured, small bubbles would form on the glass after a few minutes.
    "The main ingredient needed is 'time' followed closely by 'patience'." - The Bishop 2013
    "Good grief! If someone wanted to murder you, all they would have to do is ship you a 55 gallon barrel of honey and watch you document working yourself to death!" - Vance G
    "When you consider that laziness and procrastination are the fundamentals of great mead, it is a miracle that the mazer cup happens." Medsen Fey, 2014
    "Sure it can be done. I've never heard of it, but I do things I've never heard if all the time. That is the beauty of being a brewer!" - Loveofrose, 2014

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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by !Wine View Post
    Here are additional reasons not to use them....
    I can document this type of behavior in my own family. They affect adults and children..... WHY would you put this in your wine once you know better?


    The wine community has been duped by the chemical companies... and now the wine community perpetuates the issue themselves.

    I need to get more sleep between jobs. *sigh*
    Sometimes I go to sites like that and I feel dirty after reading them. You may honestly have a sensitivity to sorbates, I'm sure there are people that do. Just like there are people with various allergies or sensitivities to a million things, both natural and synthetic.

    If, like that site suggests, you purge your diet completely of a thing (be it synthetic or not) for a period, and then reintroduce it in an unexpected quantity such as dosing yourself with it every day (the site says to do it until you get a reaction?!?), it's likely anyone will notice a difference in *something* about themselves.

    I think most people need to remember two things. First, is that your body can develop a tolerance to things. So, something might affect you if consumed in a certain quantity when never taken before, and the same quantity may not affect another person because they're used to consuming it. Second, moderation is a valuable tool in all things. You don't have to use something like sobates in excess or every time. Just like you shouldn't consume a whole chocolate cake at once (no matter how tempting).

    I'm sorry if this seems like I'm ripping you for your take on sorbates, but there are very few times when "always" or "never" apply to things. It does bother me a little bit that you're positive the wine industry has an agenda in promoting sorbates while you perceive no bias on the part of your cited source. I, on the other hand, have seen no evidence of the former and read an unpleasant tone on the latter.

    Just adding my 2 cents.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by !Wine View Post
    Here are additional reasons not to use them....
    I can document this type of behavior in my own family. They affect adults and children..... WHY would you put this in your wine once you know better?


    The wine community has been duped by the chemical companies... and now the wine community perpetuates the issue themselves.

    I need to get more sleep between jobs. *sigh*
    Pseudoscience. "Chemicals" is a buzzword for unfounded speculation.
    It's all chemicals. Water, alcohol, esters, all chemicals.
    Next, tell us not to vaccinate our children.

  20. #40

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    Actually, if you follow the funding on the site that was linked, it eventually goes back to the Society for Public Health Education...which is strongly linked to extremely liberal health organizations and have ties to groups that DO advocate avoiding vaccinating your children. All said with pretty words of course.

    Edit: I did a bit of deeper reading, and while SOPHE is deep in Obama's pocket, I misread one of the names of their partners. I thought it said Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a very very crazy group. I apologize for that one.
    Last edited by Soyala_Amaya; 04-14-2012 at 11:08 PM.
    Angry Viking Hedgehog say "Give me mead or I poke ya!"

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