Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 161

Thread: I think common practice is over feeding our little ones!

  1. #21

    Default

    Ppm is parts per million or mg per liter.
    You can add 40g in 100 liters (hectoliter) Fermaid O, or 40 000mg per 100 liters. Which (divided by 100) becomes 400mg per liter fermaid O.
    This means that in a liter of water, the recommended dosage is 400ppm Fermaid O or 400mg.
    From those 400ppm or 400mg, for the sake of the argument, 10% of fermaid's weight is assimilable nitrogen. 10% of 400mg (or ppm) is 40mg.
    So with scottlab's reccommended dosage of 400ppm fermaid O, you will get (if only 10% of it becomes nitrogen) 40ppm YAN.
    However, that link does not state how much assimilable nitrogen you will get, just the recommended dosage
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  2. #22

    Default

    Ok let me explain why ppm is the same as mg/l.
    A liter of water weighs 1000grams or a kilogram. This is a fact. Each gram contains 1000mg. So a liter of water weighs 1kg = 1000g = 1000, 000mg (a million milligrams).
    Now, let's say you add 1mg of salt in a liter of water. That would be 1mg (one part) in a million parts or mg of water. Adding 1mg of salt in a liter of water gives you 1ppm salt.
    If instead of salt you added 1mg of assimilable nitrogen, you would have 1ppm YAN. If you add a 2mg of substance you will have 2ppm, if half of that substance is nitrogen you will have 1ppm YAN
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vero Beach, FL
    Posts
    395

    Smile

    A liter of water weighs 1000grams or a kilogram. This is a fact.
    Hey Stasis, Is that hard water or soft water?

  4. #24

    Default

    A liter of water is always 1 kg kernel crush, this is fact.
    If you have hard water and it weighs more than a kg the universe will notice and rearrange the laws of physics around you, still making that liter of water weigh a kg
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    State of Jefferson
    Posts
    744

    My Social Networking

    Follow Mazer828 On Twitter Add Mazer828 on Facebook Add Mazer828 on Google+
    Visit Mazer828's Youtube Channel

    Default

    Only at sea level, and at 4 degrees C. Just sayin.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Then glory in battle to Hrothgar was given, waxing of war-fame, that willingly kinsmen obeyed his bidding, till the boys grew to manhood, a numerous band. It burned in his spirit to urge his folk to found a great building, a mead-hall grander than men of the era ever had heard of, and in it to share with young and old all of the blessings the Lord had allowed him, save life and retainers." - Beowulf

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Newark, De
    Posts
    519

    My Social Networking

    Add zpeckler on Facebook

    Default

    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!


  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vero Beach, FL
    Posts
    395

    Default

    In regard to the original intent of this thread, I was going to keep my opinion to myself, but meadmakers have researched low nutrient additions for about 10,000 years. That’s why wine & beer took over if you believe that that is written. Only in the last hundreds of years has any real science been applied to it and the results have always pointed upwards. I think that will continue. Sugar levels have been incorporated in calculators, and yeast strain as well. But there are many areas that haven’t been quantified and they all point up.

    Clarified must. The calculators we see for the most part are wine based with non-clarified must and grape chemistry. Mead certainly qualifies as clarified with an exception to some degree with pyments and FIP melomels, even though the honey portion of even those would be thought of as a clarified.

    Temperature Warmer temperatures cause the nutrients to assimilate more quickly as the yeast cell count grows more rapidly

    Pitch rate and growth rate and starters. Same reasoning as temperature

    Oxygen level. Yeast capture nutrients faster in an oxygen rich environment

    Source. Organic sources are said to be 3-5 times more efficient than inorganic sources

    pH. Some, I think mostly DAP, have a 30% drop in utilization when pH goes from 4 to 3.

    Time. Some thinking is that vitamins and minerals can be utilized completely within 3 hours depending on must composition.

    Sanitization, SO2, fruit quality and fruit selection, and acid levels are additional factors, and there are likely many more.

    I think the best we can do is use a calculator for sugar and yeast strain and then take all the above into account when adjusting your number. Until these are assigned some kind of importance factor, we are just trying to get close and the best we can do is monitor your actual fermentation and correct quickly when you are wrong.

  8. #28

    Default

    I have to agree with the Kernel. With that said we still want to have something to get us started. After that we need to rely on our senses. I have been using the TOSNA (actually some less for grand totals) totals but getting to them with a little old school and the bigger half using "O". I have been using Dap/K at first feed, second feed K/O and last a shorter does of "O" and then hulls near the end if I think I need it.

    I keep my last addition open to interpretation. If everything has been going well, I have beed adding yeast hulls at the last feed and not really counting YAN with that. Just adding from experience. If you monitor things closely like I do. You can catch things very quickly and if it's not gone very badly wayward it's super easy to bring back up to speed.

    I have a little bit harder time knowing what to do with Red Star yeast. They stink even when you are feeding them everything they want. Mot sulpherish stink, just smelly. After I have tried a couple batches with that yeast I doubt I will use it any more. I suppose time will tell once those batches have had a chance to age enough.
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    550

    Default

    My latest batch made with RS Cote Des Blanc didn't smell bad at all for the whole duration of primary (ok, primary technically isn't done since I haven't racked it yet but ferm activity has slowed to nil). For the most part, it smelled like yeast with apple undertones. At this point, I'm not sure which aromatics are from the yeast and which are from all the apple juice I put in there. Might have been my ingredients this time around, but my first batch with D47 smelled a lot worse in primary.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Farmington, Maine
    Posts
    1,095

    Default

    wish I could focus enough at work to read and understand this thread.
    Stuff~

    Quote Originally Posted by fatbloke View Post
    If someone else doesn't think it's right, then ***k 'em. They can make their own.

  11. #31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
    Btw, The link by zpeckler asks for even more Fermaid O than the TOSNA approach. In the spreadsheet 40 ppm per gram are provided, vs the 50ppm per gram in the TOSNA approach...
    I've been re-reading this and found a mistake. The spreadsheet quotes 1g/l to add 40ppm, while tosna quotes 1g/gal to add 50ppm. Therefore, tosna estimates fermaid O to be much more effective. This seems like a lot, but tosna estimates 1g/l to provide almost 190 ppm. This would make it much more efficient than fermaid k, and slightly less efficient than dap.
    However, maybe this number cannot be quoted as it is. As we have already discussed, the link says we can use less nutrients overall....
    So the link by zpeckler asks us to use less nutrients but then gives us a very low efficiency on Fermaid O, while TOSNA gives us higher nutrient needs while telling us fermaid O is much more efficient. In the link by zpeckler there is a comment that Fermaid O should be much more efficient but no numbers were provided.
    I am very curious whether the 1g/l provides 190ppm by tosna was found through trial and error or if this number was actually found through lallemand or lab tests on samples. If the nitrogen needs for yeast is in reality lower than what tosna quotes but the method still requires the same amount of Fermaid O for complete fermentation, then Fermaid O's efficiency would be lower. For all intents and purposes this lower efficiency would only make a difference if you are using a non-tosna method. Complex stuff

    Lallemand state that 30g/hl provides 30ppm here http://www.icv.fr/en/oenological-pro...ents/fermaid-o therefore:
    10g/hl = 10ppm
    0.1g/l = 10ppm
    1g/l = 100ppm
    This is a suspiciously round number and is also the exact number quoted for fermaid k at least in zpeckler's link, which makes me think Lallemand are not 100% accurate when quoting yan ppm in their products...
    I still do not know how much yan yeast need and how much yan products provide. From what l've read the TOSNA approach seems the best way to go in most cases. I might re-evaluate for high requirement yeasts or for high gravity musts
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Newark, De
    Posts
    519

    My Social Networking

    Add zpeckler on Facebook

    Default

    The wildly different figures for exactly how much ppm YAN organic nitrogen Fermaid-O provides was a source of much confusion for me when I started using it. Not only that but people throw around it's "effectiveness" in its equivalence to a certain ppm YAN of inorganic nitrogen. To make matters worse, when taking about how much YAN Fermaid-O provides sometimes people don't specify if they're taking about the absolute ppm YAN or "effective" ppm YAN.

    In his TOSNA instructions Sergio specifies that the 1g/gal provides an "effective" 50ppm YAN. How he arrived at this number is unclear; I haven't heard him talk about it in any of his interviews on Got Mead Live or The Meadmakr. Regardless, TOSNA definitely works. It was a great step forward in doing organic nitrogen ferments in a systematic, thought-out way.

    Yeast clearly metabolize organic and inorganic sources of nitrogen differently, and the same absolute ppm YAN from different sources will give you different amounts of biologic activity from the yeast. I think that's what people are trying to express when they talk about Fermaid-O's "effectiveness." When Sergio says in his TOSNA protocol that 1g/gal gives an "effective" 50ppm YAN, he saying that 1g/gal Fermaid-O will get you the same amount of biologic activity from the yeast as if you gave them 50ppm of DAP.

    Stasis is totally right when he says the numbers are all over the place and the math doesn't come out right. It drives me freaking crazy. At the end of the day what I think it comes down to is that not even the guys in industry have a complete understanding of how organic nitrogen sources work.

    We're all familiar with the well-established YAN recommendations of about 300ppm (plus or minus depending on OG, of course). These recommendations were established based on meadmakers figuring out what ppm of *inorganic* nitrogen was needed to get enough biologic activity out of the yeasts to complete a healthy fermentation. The next step will be to do the research to figure out what absolute ppm of *organic* nitrogen will get the same activity.

  13. #33

    Default

    I think what sergio meant was:
    Organic nitrogen is easier to digest than inorganic. This has been stated also by lallemand. This ease translates to more ppm...
    Let's say that in order to digest 1ppm dap, yeast must expend 0.5ppm nitrogen. So with every 10ppm yeast consume they only net 5ppm. This is what happens in all organism - even eating expends energy. For organic nitrogen it might be that they expend 0.25ppm per 1ppm they consume. So after consuming 10ppm they would have effectively gained 7.5. Thus if for sake of argument 1 g of dap in a liter provides 100ppm, and 1 g of organic nitrogen provides 20ppm: effectively, however these values would not be so far apart since yeast consume organic nitrogen twice as easy. Fermaid o would provide the equivalent of 40ppm inorganic nitrogen as far as mazers are concerned. (I haven't bothered to check my math at all. All numbers are there for gist)

    But even with this effective vs ineffective debate, the point is there are 3 values none of which agree. Someone must be mistaken and I have no idea where they are getting their numbers from, or even what their numbers mean
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  14. Default

    http://www.winebusiness.com/tools/?g...&cid=2114#calc

    Here is an interesting calculator I found that gives the YAN for a variety of nutrients.

    Thoughts?

  15. #35

    Default

    The values from that calculator are exactly like those in zpeckler's link, which just means they got their values from the same place. I still can't figure how some other links give very different values. I can't imagine how 'effective' yan for Fermaid O could be so much more than yan, and how this value was derived.
    For example, instead of 1 g of fermaid O giving 10.5ppm in 1 gallon, the TOSNA approach says it provides 50ppm, which is WAY higher
    Last edited by Stasis; 01-19-2016 at 08:19 PM.
    "Shouldn’t we say wine is a mead-like beverage made with grapes substituted for the honey?" - Steve Piatz

  16. Default

    Ok I have a quick one to run by you guys.

    I am looking to start a Sack Mead and I was thinking about the following SNA protocol.

    SG = 1.13

    Batch = 25L

    TARGET YAN = 360ppm

    Rehydrate 20g DV10 with 25g GoFerm

    After Lag
    DAP = 10g
    FERMAID K = 10g

    @ 1.090
    DAP = 5g
    FERMAID K =15G

    @ 1.070
    DAP = 3g
    FERMAID K = 15g

    @1.03
    Boiled Yeast = 24g
    Raisins= 1 cup chopped and boiled


    GO Ferm = 30 ppm YAN
    DAP 18g Total = 150 YAN
    FERMAID K 40g = 160 YAN
    Boiled Yeast/Raisins = 20is YAN

    YAN Total = 360ppm
    Step feed until yeast quits. Goal 18 ish%

    My thinking is to get all the DAP in before the 8%ABV mark and then supplement with the only form of organic nitrogen I have avaliable
    ie) boiled yeast and rains to max yeast health and reduce fusel production.

    I have never attempted a traditional with this high of starting gravity.

    Am I planning on over feeding my yeast? Comments and critiques welcome.
    Last edited by Farmboyc; 01-20-2016 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Additional info.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    State of Jefferson
    Posts
    744

    My Social Networking

    Follow Mazer828 On Twitter Add Mazer828 on Facebook Add Mazer828 on Google+
    Visit Mazer828's Youtube Channel

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
    I think what sergio meant was:
    Organic nitrogen is easier to digest than inorganic. This has been stated also by lallemand. This ease translates to more ppm...
    Let's say that in order to digest 1ppm dap, yeast must expend 0.5ppm nitrogen. So with every 10ppm yeast consume they only net 5ppm. This is what happens in all organism - even eating expends energy. For organic nitrogen it might be that they expend 0.25ppm per 1ppm they consume. So after consuming 10ppm they would have effectively gained 7.5. Thus if for sake of argument 1 g of dap in a liter provides 100ppm, and 1 g of organic nitrogen provides 20ppm: effectively, however these values would not be so far apart since yeast consume organic nitrogen twice as easy. Fermaid o would provide the equivalent of 40ppm inorganic nitrogen as far as mazers are concerned. (I haven't bothered to check my math at all. All numbers are there for gist)

    But even with this effective vs ineffective debate, the point is there are 3 values none of which agree. Someone must be mistaken and I have no idea where they are getting their numbers from, or even what their numbers mean
    Rather than assume someone is mistaken, I would rather assume there is much about yeast that I do not understand yet. In fact there is probably much science does not yet fully understand about this marvelous organism. I love the discussing though and it can only lead us closer to the truth.

    A thought: could "effective" refer in part to the yeast's ability to assimilate the nitrogen throughout the spectrum of increasing alcohol and decreasing available simple sugars the yeast will sustain through the course of the ferment?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Then glory in battle to Hrothgar was given, waxing of war-fame, that willingly kinsmen obeyed his bidding, till the boys grew to manhood, a numerous band. It burned in his spirit to urge his folk to found a great building, a mead-hall grander than men of the era ever had heard of, and in it to share with young and old all of the blessings the Lord had allowed him, save life and retainers." - Beowulf

  18. Default

    Sergio here. Received a message through the AMMA site asking if I could step in and add a little clarification to this thread.
    I'll preface by saying I only briefly skimmed through most of the replies here but, here is what I could share based on the topic. Also, a couple of months ago, I did add a disclaimer to the www.meadmaderight.com page explaining that the TOSNA formula, as posted, is for traditional mead making. When fermenting fruit with your honey, half of the TOSNA dose can be used.

    As per Scott Labs, Fermaid-O, on paper, contributes 10ppm at a dose of 1g/gal. However, it's effectiveness (again, as per Scott Labs) is easily 5x greater, hence my 1g/gal equating to 50ppm.

    From my experience, I do believe it to be even greater "effectiveness" than that and have (very conservatively) experimented with adding less here and there and have noticed little ill effect. I am fermenting 14% alcohol in 9-10 days, fermenting at 60-62F with mostly 71B, and to be honest, I have to STOP the fermentation by cold crashing because even at 14% alcohol, my tanks still look like they are at a rolling boil with super active fermentation.

    With that said, do I think 1g/gal is more effective than 50ppm? I believe so, but as to how much more is difficult to say. An update to TOSNA might come around as time goes on.

    Here's the thing to keep in mind as well, you can measure YAN through Formol Number reading, which I have the capability to do at Melovino Meadery. However, there is no reading you can take to measure the "effectiveness" side of things, only experimentation over time and comparing data, which is what I have been doing and will eventually release my findings in a book I have been working on.

    I have not gone too crazy with any drastic drops in TOSNA doses as, let's face it, especially on the commercial side of things, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If I had the time now a days to experiment on 5 gallon batches as much as I would like, I would have gotten a lot more data in a much shorter amount of time with more dramatic drops in TOSNA doses.

    I'd also like to add that I think it's great that these discussions are being had. This is what it takes to make great mead.

    I can't guarantee a revisit or more replies on the forum here any time soon as I am seriously stretched very thin, but keep it up. Hope this all helps.

    Mead On Meaders
    Last edited by smoutela; 01-21-2016 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    State of Jefferson
    Posts
    744

    My Social Networking

    Follow Mazer828 On Twitter Add Mazer828 on Facebook Add Mazer828 on Google+
    Visit Mazer828's Youtube Channel

    Default

    Awesome response! Thanks Sergio!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Then glory in battle to Hrothgar was given, waxing of war-fame, that willingly kinsmen obeyed his bidding, till the boys grew to manhood, a numerous band. It burned in his spirit to urge his folk to found a great building, a mead-hall grander than men of the era ever had heard of, and in it to share with young and old all of the blessings the Lord had allowed him, save life and retainers." - Beowulf

  20. Default

    Wow now I am regretting not getting that fermaid-o.

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. common abbreviations
    By quirky in forum Mead NewBees - Post your Questions Here
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-12-2005, 11:58 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •