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I think common practice is over feeding our little ones!

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gunit00

NewBee
Registered Member
Dec 19, 2015
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What a discussion!

But, what is the consensus on the amount of Fermaid O to use in a 5 Gallon batch of traditional mead?
 

mannye

Administrator
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Oct 10, 2012
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Yup, that's the one KC....... :D

it gives good info about the needs when it comes to traditionals. I'd guess there might be some reduction in requirement if you're making a batch with fruit, especially if you add whole (chopped etc, not just the juice part) fruit.

JAOM seems to bear that out where there is no nutrient addition with the exception of raisins and whole orange (or lemon) wedges. That basic bread yeast goes insane for a full two weeks to ten days with nothing but delicious sweet smells coming from the airlock.
 

mannye

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Oct 10, 2012
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What a discussion!

But, what is the consensus on the amount of Fermaid O to use in a 5 Gallon batch of traditional mead?

I started to reduce until I got to (I'm answering quickly without looking at my notes...so grain of salt until I look it up) I think it's 6 grams per addition (total of 18 grams of O for a five gallon batch...)
 

Mazer828

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 9, 2015
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Inland Empire
I have suspected that it would for quite some time, but I have never researched it or tested it out. If I ever wound up with a heavily DAP'ed batch that had some metallic bitterness, I'd try treating it with Bentonite to see if it helped.
This is what I'd really like to avoid by figuring out how much DAP will be assimilated, so none will be left behind. Otherwise, this guy is just going to stick with an all Fermaid-O regime.
 

loveofrose

Got Mead? Patron
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Nov 9, 2012
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Agreed. Thank you Medsen for taking the time to fully critique the paper all this is based on. I find your criticisms to be spot on. Whenever a study impacts sales of a product, one is always a bit suspicious of an overly positive outcome.

I've read quite a few of these type of papers and haven't been thoroughly impressed with the overall quality of research. It is my view that we must perform our own experiments to test the parameters that we have an interest in. It is then important to post those results for the community. This way, all of our meads can be improved. At the very least, we will learn what doesn't work!

I'm curious if we can save this collective knowledge in an organized, easily searchable way. Perhaps Vicki's Meadopedia idea from GotMead Live would be a good place for this. I would certainly be more than happy to contribute!



Better brewing through science!

See my brewing site at www.denardbrewing.com

See my Current Mead Making Techniques article here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/current-mead-making-techniques.html
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
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Malta
I'm finding this odd...
There was a consensus that Tosna works
Medsen said we don't have proof from studies
We showed studies but they were not adequate. although practices have been created on this site with much less proof, but Yan is an important topic so I guess we need to be more thorough
Now maybe we should reach a consensus through shared experience. But wasn't this where we started with tosna and it wasn't enough?

I haven't tried tosna myself but I was under the impression that many here use it successfully. If tosna works, it seems our job is to find nitrogen needs of each yeast and tailor our additions each time
 

Medsen Fey

Fuselier since 2007
Premium Patron
I'm finding this odd...
There was a consensus that Tosna works
Medsen said we don't have proof from studies
We showed studies but they were not adequate. although practices have been created on this site with much less proof,...
Let me reiterate my concern. I'm not saying TOSNA doesn't work. What's more, I love Fermaid O.

I just think that we should probably avoid making statements that say Fermaid O YAN has some greater nitrogen equivalence than other forms of nitrogen when there is no data that supports that. I've see NewBees being confused about how much nitrogen they added.

Does a small amount of Fermaid O suffice for adequate fermentation? Perhaps it does. It certainly raises some questions. For example, when adding Fermaid K, you are adding an amount of autolyzed yeast that may be comparable to that in Fermaid O so does it work as well or better? Anecdotal history suggests not.

Now maybe we should reach a consensus through shared experience.

I think this is the key. New practices have been developed and borne out through anecdotal trials - the BOMM protocol for example. TOSNA may well prove to be a very reliable nutrient regimen, and I look forward to seeing the data accumulate.

In the meantime, please try not to confuse the NewBees. :)
 

theDREWery

NewBee
Registered Member
Dec 3, 2014
40
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Mt. Pleasant, MI
I'm wondering if YAN is less useful, if not outright obsolete, in the presence of modern nutrients.

With DAP alone, YAN is probably the perfect measuring stick, as the yeast will use this to assemble into amino acids and "power" various metabolic activities.

But with Fermaid K and O, the presence of amino acids, sterols, lipids, etc., yeast will be directly absorbing some of the components they need. This would reduce the need the build from scratch, and allow the yeasts metabolic components to forgo the constructing amino acids and focus on processing sugar to ethanol. This may make it appear to be more effective, as less nitrogen is used up in the production of amino acids. Example: a house appears to be built faster if trucks deliver pre-built walls rather than lumber.

So YAN can't effectively measure the impact of Fermaid O or even Fermaid K, because you're not adding accessible molecular nitrogen, you're adding what the nitrogen is needed for to build. Kind of like looking at a housing complex and asking how many trees are there, it's irrelevant if your goal is a neighborhood of x houses.

Does this make sense? Am I speaking jibberish, or did I just break YAN? I'm lacking quite a bit of sleep, so this morning was definitely not the best time to try to absorb science...
 

Mazer828

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 9, 2015
791
4
0
Inland Empire
A similar analogy I suspect is very close to this idea, and if true helps me accept better that organic nutrient is more efficient than synthetic:

Salt

Salt, in it's natural form (i.e., mined from the ground, previously sea salt, formed into huge layers beneath the earth during the flood) is rich with complex mineral content. Anywhere from 72 to 84 trace minerals, comprising up to 20% or more of it's mass. All of these minerals are needed in trace quantities by the body. However, in our greed, we have taken this salt in its natural form, stripped it of these beneficial minerals (because they are far more valuable when sold separately) and we sprinkle the resultant, highly toxic sodium chloride on our food. The results: too many health problems to mention, probably the most common of which is high blood pressure.

However! Salt in it's natural form, including all those trace minerals, gives your body the proper tools to utilize, process, and eliminate excess sodium chloride! So it's no longer toxic, it's beneficial! It's even been clinically shown that natural salt (Celtic sea salt / Himalayan, etc) have reduced blood pressure in people told by their doctors to NEVER add salt to food!

So perhaps, trusting in the marvellous design of yeast, we might find that organic nutrients somehow (beyond our understanding, perhaps) simply provides yeast with all of the tools to make far more use of the measurable YAN in Fermaid-O than larger amounts of synthetic YAN.

Just food for thought, so to speak.
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
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38
Malta
Reading that article I quoted from, there is almost no doubt in my mind that nitrogen in different forms will be metabolised with different efficiencies. Even different types of amino acids are metabolized with different efficiencies. The problem os finding a study about fermaid O which is not by Lallemand and not with regards to wine, which seems rather difficult.
Fermaid O is supposedly different from autolyzed yeast because Lallemand chose specific yeast (which had absorbed certain specific amino acids?) before autolyzing
 

Mazer828

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 9, 2015
791
4
0
Inland Empire
Seems like we might do well to enlist some of the numerous microbiologists, chemists, and fermentation science experts who are regular contributors to this forum and others, and entreat them to conduct an independent study.
 

gunit00

NewBee
Registered Member
Dec 19, 2015
18
0
0
A similar analogy I suspect is very close to this idea, and if true helps me accept better that organic nutrient is more efficient than synthetic:

Salt

Salt, in it's natural form (i.e., mined from the ground, previously sea salt, formed into huge layers beneath the earth during the flood) is rich with complex mineral content. Anywhere from 72 to 84 trace minerals, comprising up to 20% or more of it's mass. All of these minerals are needed in trace quantities by the body. However, in our greed, we have taken this salt in its natural form, stripped it of these beneficial minerals (because they are far more valuable when sold separately) and we sprinkle the resultant, highly toxic sodium chloride on our food. The results: too many health problems to mention, probably the most common of which is high blood pressure.

However! Salt in it's natural form, including all those trace minerals, gives your body the proper tools to utilize, process, and eliminate excess sodium chloride! So it's no longer toxic, it's beneficial! It's even been clinically shown that natural salt (Celtic sea salt / Himalayan, etc) have reduced blood pressure in people told by their doctors to NEVER add salt to food!

So perhaps, trusting in the marvellous design of yeast, we might find that organic nutrients somehow (beyond our understanding, perhaps) simply provides yeast with all of the tools to make far more use of the measurable YAN in Fermaid-O than larger amounts of synthetic YAN.

Just food for thought, so to speak.

If you could share a reputable demonstration of those claims about salt, I would greatly appreciate it.!
 

smoutela

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 30, 2012
23
1
0
New Jersey
www.melovino.com
Although not considered data, this is straight from Scott Labs. "Nitrogen from amino acids is a more efficient form of nitrogen for cell metabolism and aromatic production than straight ammonia (DAP) or glutamate."

With that said, I have found some data that would take into account total ppm of YAN required in regards to individual yeast strain requirements. I will begin testing this and will most likely post a revised version of TOSNA on meadmaderight.com

For now, for "low nitrogen requirement" yeast strains, you may use a factor of .75 of the total calculated Fermaid-O with TOSNA.
 

smoutela

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 30, 2012
23
1
0
New Jersey
www.melovino.com
And to reevaluate my previous statements in reference to my beliefs that Fermaid-O may be even more "effective" than 50ppm, in actuality, that could still be the case but slightly skewed when considering the nutrient requirement per yeast strain.

LOTS more to come.
 
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