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I think common practice is over feeding our little ones!

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Squatchy

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FWIW, TOSNA was updated a few months ago on the MMR site now using more realistic YAN requirement levels, even further tailored by yeast strain.

I have been using the TOSNA 2.0 close to a year now at the meadery with great success. Before, our fermentations where ripping along at high activity even at 14% abv mark. We would need to cold crash our tanks to halt it.

TOSNA 2.0 has shown immediately noticeable results to the effect that our fermentations are now coming to a nice slow and steady finish. I believe the dosage rates are now pretty dialed in to the point to more realistic addition rates based on more precise numbers.

Also, STASIS, great find on the research pertaining to proline and the theory as to how it might be the underlining reason with how Fermaid-O works so well while (technically on paper) it underfeeds the yeast. Super interesting that I will most certainly be spending a good amount of time starting to look into.

I wish I had more time to log in and be more active here in GM to have been more a part of the overall conversation, but this has been one of the best threads I've seen in years here.

I, in no way shape or form, fall into the (respectively) "bio-nerd" classification, but you all who are and have shared the workings behind the scenes of what is really going on here is amazing. Kudos to you all.

As a final note, if there is a specific experimentation you could collaborate with deciding on that you would like me to conduct, please do let me know.

Thanks for stopping by. I joined the AMMA hoping to find this sort of discussions. I wish more of you top shelf pro's could spend more time with us over hear. I think this is the best forum for sure for all things a mazing LOL

Please let us know what you find in regards to proline.
 
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WillieP

NewBee
Registered Member
Oct 24, 2017
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First off, I'm a Noob and/or NewBee. I'm talking haven't completely finished my first BOMM yet.
But I lurk here quite a bit, and do enjoy reading the topics discussed here. I believe there is a great bit of knowledge to be had by doing so.
I've just read though the 161 posts in this thread and I can say, some of it was a bit beyond me. About the point that you were talking about moving the thread to the patron's forum, I damn near gave up on it, but I'm glad I did not, it lead me to post 159.
This kind of brought it together for me, and made it more understandable, at least to a simple man like me.
Just wanted to say Thanks.
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
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38
Malta
I have recently googled Fermaid O and looked into a pdf by Lallemande. It was the very top Lallemande result in google. It seems they have officially updated their info about Fermaid O. We had mention of this information in the past but it was just a scathing mention and when contacted Lallemande were very quiet about it. The pdf can be found here http://catalogapp.lallemandwine.com.../670029505c1db6d06e5c8ca911922c6d74842ad4.pdf and the information on the pdf reads:

"Actual YAN verses ‘YAN Equivalent’ requires a special mention.
• Actual YAN is how much Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen is present in the product (mg/g) or present for a given dose of a
product mg/L. A 20g/hL dose of Fermaid O provides 8.6mg/L of YAN.
• In many trials it has been demonstrated that ‘organic’ YAN is approximately 2.5 times more efficient than inorganic
YAN on a per mg basis. Given this, many suppliers quote a YAN equivalent. Hence a 20g/hL dose of Fermaid O has a
YAN equivalent (to inorganic) of 24mg/L. This concept needs to be linked to a defined method of evaluation: using a
MS70 synthetic medium with reference yeast and a 40 g / hL NH4
+ addition compared to various concentrations of the
product to be evaluated and then measuring their effect on dCO2/dt before it is a value / concept that can be used to
compare products.
Circumstances such as fruit quality, variety, winemaking practice, must parameters, yeast nutrient demand and cellar
conditions are infinitely variable and impact on yeast performance."

Seems pretty specific definition of yan equivalanet but it's nice to see it explicitly written by them nonetheless
 

edaskew

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Jun 19, 2018
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So if I'm reading that right, they recommend only two feedings, and the maximum dose is 60g/ hl, which would translate to at total of only 12g for a 20L or a 5 gallon batch? That doesn't sound like much. My two 5 gallon batches I have going now calculated out to 20 grams total each for 71B. Of course this is for wine musts, right? Mead musts must require more nitrogen.
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
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38
Malta
So if I'm reading that right, they recommend only two feedings, and the maximum dose is 60g/ hl, which would translate to at total of only 12g for a 20L or a 5 gallon batch? That doesn't sound like much. My two 5 gallon batches I have going now calculated out to 20 grams total each for 71B. Of course this is for wine musts, right? Mead musts must require more nitrogen.

Yes, unless something is explicitly referring to mead it's probably referring to grape wine. All that info is rather pointless. The point I was making was regarding to the term "yan equivalent". Early in this thread there was a debate whether yan equivalent was a thing. Lallemand gave some hints towards it and us mead makers (and tosna) were suspicious we should use "yan equivalent" rather than just taking yan amounts from off the package (yan equivalent is higher in the case of Fermaid O). Tosna at meadmaderight.com gives a good calculation of how much Fermaid O to use by taking into consideration yan equivalent, yeast strain, and gravity. In the good old days mazers would simply add a teaspoon or so of dap or fermaid K every feeding or front-load all nutrients because they couldn't be bothered. They used so supply way over the amount needed very often and, at least sometimes, this resulted in inferior results
 

edaskew

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Jun 19, 2018
375
61
28
North Carolina and Mississippi
In the good old days, you boiled your honey, you put in your yeast nutrient, you mixed it all up, pitched your yeast and you forgot about it. Then you could drink some 2 years later.
 

Medsen Fey

Fuselier since 2007
Premium Patron
I'm still having difficulty with the concept that Amino Acid nitrogen in Fermaid O is 2.5 times as effective as other nitrogen. Yes, the Lallemand documentation states:

Fermaid YAN.PNG

However, the statement "In many trials it has been demonstrated that ‘organic’ YAN is approximately 2.5 times more efficient than inorganicYAN on a per mg basis," leaves me wanting the specifics. So far, I'm looking for some of these trials in the literature and I'm not finding much. While there is anecdotal evidence that this may be true, I'd like to see some of these studies to understand the comparisons.

If anyone has any of this data, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where we can find it.

-Medsen
 

darigoni

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Jun 4, 2016
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Medsen,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read this is statement (see below) is that, as of yet, there is no "defined method of evaluation" to link the concept to. It sounds to me that the "trials" they reference may be non-scientific or anecdotal.


"This concept needs to be linked to a defined method of evaluation: using a MS70 synthetic medium with reference yeast and a 40 g / hL NH4+ addition compared to various concentrations of the product to be evaluated and then measuring their effect on dCO2/dt before it is a value / concept that can be used to compare products."
 

Medsen Fey

Fuselier since 2007
Premium Patron
I believe they have run trials, and knowing the folks at Lallemand, probably with good scientific rigor. Unfortunately they keep a lot of that data internal - trade secrets and such. I appreciate the fact that they are suggesting that before we run out and shout that a gram of Fermaid O is equivalent to 2.5 grams of DAP or some other nutrient, that we need to offer the caveat that this has been shown in certain circumstances. I’d just like them to be open about all the circumstances where this has been shown so we can understand it better.

However, I ain’t gonna hold my breath waiting.

We need trials in meads.
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
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Nov 3, 2014
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We won't see test for mead from the mainstream for a good while. The piece of the pie is too small to warrant that. Meanwhile. I'm on the board for the American Mead Makers association. I suspect we will be doing test before the mainstream will in regards to all the gas mead. We have ideas in the works.
 

lucassmith

NewBee
Registered Member
Dec 6, 2018
3
0
0
There are high chances we might be feeding our little ones extra nutrients. Different yeasts have different nitrogen requirements and thus we must try and take care we are proving them with the right quantity of nutrients. Temperature and pH requirements also play an important role.
 

neverdie

NewBee
Registered Member
Feb 23, 2019
11
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0
using the TOSNA protocol we already use the "effectiveness" rather than the actual YAN contribution of:

40g / hl = 400ppm

- the same as -

40g / 100 liters = 400ppm

4g / 10 liters = 400ppm

1g / 1 liter = 100 ppm

1g / 1 Gallon = 26.42ppm

At least according to Lallemand


Whereas the TOSNA protocol states:

1g / 1 Gallon = 50 ppm

Doubling what Lallemand states


But Lallemand is using this in grape must, not honey must. Honey must is devoid of most nutrients, but seems to have plenty of proline. Although the darker honeys tend to have more of almost everything, but still not enough for a good clean ferment.


If you're talking about Fermaid-O, then your math is wrong:

1 gram Fermaid-O in one liter yields 40ppm YAN.
Proof:
On page 37 of the 2018 Scott Labs Fermentation handbook: 10mgN/L results from dosing 25 grams of Fermaid-O in 1hL.
QED
 

darigoni

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Jun 4, 2016
945
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Brookline, NH
If you're talking about Fermaid-O, then your math is wrong:

1 gram Fermaid-O in one liter yields 40ppm YAN.
Proof:
On page 37 of the 2018 Scott Labs Fermentation handbook: 10mgN/L results from dosing 25 grams of Fermaid-O in 1hL.
QED

You are responding to something that was originally posted back in 2015 and, in the very next post, was pointed out as being incorrect.
 

EricHartman

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Mar 4, 2019
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You are responding to something that was originally posted back in 2015 and, in the very next post, was pointed out as being incorrect.

Its interesting that coming into mead making in just the last 8 months I assumed the protocols everyone was teaching (tosna, etc) have been very established for a very long time... To learn that just 4 years ago these were being debated and hammered out is a nice little piece of history. The worlds oldest alcoholic beverage is also very new!
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
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Its interesting that coming into mead making in just the last 8 months I assumed the protocols everyone was teaching (tosna, etc) have been very established for a very long time... To learn that just 4 years ago these were being debated and hammered out is a nice little piece of history. The worlds oldest alcoholic beverage is also very new!

I asked my friend Sergio to come comment on this early in the thread. It was only a couple months later that he released the TOSNA 2.0 version after looking through this thread.
 

neverdie

NewBee
Registered Member
Feb 23, 2019
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Has there been any further update as to under what circumstances, because of Fermaid-O's greater "efficiency," we can reduce the Fermaid-O we use by 2.5x?
 

neverdie

NewBee
Registered Member
Feb 23, 2019
11
0
0
You are responding to something that was originally posted back in 2015 and, in the very next post, was pointed out as being incorrect.

Yes, you're right. Sorry. I'm not used to reading threads in reverse order, which is the convention for this forum.

However, FWIW, I did confirm by telephone with Scott Labs that
the statement:
" 1 gram Fermaid-O in one liter yields 40ppm YAN"
is true.
 

neverdie

NewBee
Registered Member
Feb 23, 2019
11
0
0
I couldn't find the formulas used by Tosna 3.0, but I did find it for TOSNA 2.0. Here is what the TOSNA 2.0 formula is:

Here is the calculation to determine the total amount of Fermaid-O to use:

Initial Sugar (g/L) x N requirement factor x batch size (gals) / 50 (ppm) = Total Fermaid-O (grams)


Initial Sugar (g/L)

Brix x 10 = Sugar (g/L)
*1° Brix ≈ 10 g/L sugar



Nitrogen(N) Requirement Factor

For Low N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 0.75 = YAN requirement

For Medium N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 0.90 = YAN requirement

For High N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 1.25 = YAN requirement

*Sugar (g/L) = Brix x 10

*Factors sourced from Scott Labs fermentation handbook 2016

Common yeasts w/ Low N needs, 71B, DV10 , D47, EC1118

Common yeasts w/ Medium N needs, D21, D254, D80, V1116

Common yeasts w/ High Nitrogen needs, CY3079, RC212

The above is from:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...right.com/info.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us



Let's work an example for RC212 given OG 1.100:

Brix is 23.77.

So, YAN requirement is 23.77 x 10 x 1.25 = 297.125 YAN.

Right?

Now, although we know 1 gram Fermaid-O in 1 liter of water is 40ppm YAN, it appears that the TOSNA formulas treat it as 50ppm. Therefore, to remain consistent for the purpose of these calculations, I will use 50ppm too.

So, 297.125/50= 5.9425 grams of Fermaid-O in 1 liter of water is required to meet the YAN requirement for RC212.

But, the TOSNA 3.0 calculator calls for a total of just 1.1 grams of Fermaid-O, not 5.9 grams of Fermaid-O.

Why, then, is there such a large difference between the results provided by the TOSNA 2.0 calculations and the TOSNA 3 calculator? The amounts differ by more than 5x.

https://www.meadmaderight.com/tosna.html

No matter how you slice it, it would seem that the TOSNA 3.0 calculator results are insufficient to meet the yeast nitrogen requirements.

Am I wrong?
 
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