I just ordered another kilo and found many places out of stock. Apparently word is getting out it's good stuff.
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I think common practice is over feeding our little ones!
- Thread starter Squatchy
- Start date
Scott laboratories has a downloadable info sheet on Fermaid-O that says in original packaging, cool dry out of sunlight and not exposed to strong odors, shelf life is 4 years. I put mine in a mason jar in the freezer. I don't expect it'll last nearly that long before I use it though!
Might also be a good idea to portion it out into smaller quantities and vacuum seal them, then deep freeze if you're concerned about it.
Great input from Sergio. Knowing the process and what the numbers mean gives me much more confidence to use the TOSNA method. A further decrease in required Yan could be due to yeast in general needing less yan, such as was stated in Zpeckler's link. It's still quite amazing that Fermaid O is more effective than Fermaid K. Now the questin is whether or not Fermaid K has any advantages at all. Since honey is mostly absent from nutrients.. More micronutrients perhaps?
Sergio: Thanks for chiming in the conversation, much appreciated!! I've been using your TOSNA protocol in everything I make now, Fermaid-K leaves a bitter aftertaste in everything I've used it in; so I invested in a little over 1 kilo of Fermaid-O to make sure I had a ready supply for the future! I've still got most of my kilo sealed & stashed safely in the freezer, I'm about to break into it again though as I'm starting to run low on my working supply. Thanks again for doing all the hard work experimenting, collecting data, sifting through it all, then posting it all. Amazing stuff!
Squatchy: Thanks for getting Sergio in on this conversation, it's cleared up a lot of confusion!
Squatchy: Thanks for getting Sergio in on this conversation, it's cleared up a lot of confusion!
Goferm is specifically a yeast hydrating nutrient. And yes it is certified organic. But if you're looking for an organic nutrient to add for fermentation support, I recommend Fermaid-O.
I agree and I have some on order. Just thinking out loud and was curious if there was any experience or literature on this.
I can not seem to locate anything except one account that it was used in the first SNA to meet winemaking limits I believe on thiamin.
I can not seem to locate anything except one account that it was used in the first SNA to meet winemaking limits I believe on thiamin.
So I was posting over in THIS THREAD and a link was provided for this discussion and I felt it better to pick up the topic here.
To quote what I posted:
Now to be precise, the YAN content of Fermaid O is actually 40 mg in 1 gram (40 ppm YAN when 1 gram of Fermaid O is added to 1 liter). I said 50 above and I use that as a rule of thumb because it makes doing the math in my head easier and is close enough that the yeast don't care. However, in the interest of bringing some evidence based facts to this discussion, I'll try to be precise. This number has been featured in some marketing material from Lallemand in the past, though I don't see it currently on their site. However you can see the number in THIS STUDY comparing adding Fermaid O to DAP in a wine must.
This TOSNA protocol confuses an "effective amount" of YAN with and actual measurable amount. First of all, I don't understand where anyone gets the notion that Amino Acid nitrogen is 5 times more effective than Ammonium nitrogen. I've never seen that documented - anywhere. There is one study that I recall showing the use of bee pollen where adding 30 g/L produced 120 ppm YAN and was considered to be the optimal dosing for that particular mead. The study can be found linked to a thread on pollen if you search the forums. In any case, the YAN provided by pollen is essentially all amino/organic nitrogen and you still needed 120 ppm.
I'm sure you can ferment musts successfully using the TOSNA protocol. Heck, you can ferment successfully using no nitrogen additions if you pay a little extra care. Nevertheless, countless studies have shown that wine musts need approximately 140 ppm YAN as a minimum to produce optimal fermentation. So far the evidence I have seen suggests that honey musts are similar.
If anyone has scientific evidence that using Organic nitrogen is 5 times more effective than Ammonium nitrogen, please share it so we can review the data and learn from it. In the meantime, I'd strongly encourage everyone to refer to their YAN content by its actual weight/amount rather than by some "effectiveness" level that creates confusion, especially for newbees.
To quote what I posted:
Now to be precise, the YAN content of Fermaid O is actually 40 mg in 1 gram (40 ppm YAN when 1 gram of Fermaid O is added to 1 liter). I said 50 above and I use that as a rule of thumb because it makes doing the math in my head easier and is close enough that the yeast don't care. However, in the interest of bringing some evidence based facts to this discussion, I'll try to be precise. This number has been featured in some marketing material from Lallemand in the past, though I don't see it currently on their site. However you can see the number in THIS STUDY comparing adding Fermaid O to DAP in a wine must.
This TOSNA protocol confuses an "effective amount" of YAN with and actual measurable amount. First of all, I don't understand where anyone gets the notion that Amino Acid nitrogen is 5 times more effective than Ammonium nitrogen. I've never seen that documented - anywhere. There is one study that I recall showing the use of bee pollen where adding 30 g/L produced 120 ppm YAN and was considered to be the optimal dosing for that particular mead. The study can be found linked to a thread on pollen if you search the forums. In any case, the YAN provided by pollen is essentially all amino/organic nitrogen and you still needed 120 ppm.
I'm sure you can ferment musts successfully using the TOSNA protocol. Heck, you can ferment successfully using no nitrogen additions if you pay a little extra care. Nevertheless, countless studies have shown that wine musts need approximately 140 ppm YAN as a minimum to produce optimal fermentation. So far the evidence I have seen suggests that honey musts are similar.
If anyone has scientific evidence that using Organic nitrogen is 5 times more effective than Ammonium nitrogen, please share it so we can review the data and learn from it. In the meantime, I'd strongly encourage everyone to refer to their YAN content by its actual weight/amount rather than by some "effectiveness" level that creates confusion, especially for newbees.
Speculation:
Maybe part of the reason Tosna works for melovino meadery is because they use 71b (or do they?), which Lallemand list as needing "Very low requirement in assimilable nitrogen" http://www.lallemandyeast.com/company/products/71b-1122-wine-yeast
Although, then again lallemand list 71b as needing low nitrogen requirements here (vs very low) here http://www.lallemandwine.com/products/catalogue/product-detail/?range=9&id=76 so it could not mean anything, especially since low and very low are hardly scientific terms. Anyway, maybe 71b has lower than average nitrogen requirements and the overall provided nitrogen could be lessened a bit, but this is almost speculation.
Studies/Documents:
First off, Lallemand's number provided for Fermaid O in my link to the french pdf in this thread (and in the other thread) states that 1g Fermaid O provides the equivalent of 100ppm yan. The link by Zpeckler which leads to a batch calculator (in a google doc) also estimates 1g Fermaid O to provide over 100ppm yan per liter.
The study provided by medsen states that "At identical doses of added yan, the preparation based on amino acids from yeast has shown to be more effective than 100% ammonium nitrogen" (pg 3). So here again the study goes into effectiveness rather than just yan values.
I don't think the study is actually trying to measure the equivalent effectiveness unless I am missing something, so it doesn't get to the point of 5 times more effective. But it does get to 3-4x more effective than dap (3-4x also being quoted in Zpeckler's link):
"With only 15mg/l of yan added, the 40g/hl of organic nitrogen is as effective as the 50mg/l of the diammonium sulphate" (pg 6)
I.e. yan for yan, Fermaid O is at least 3.3 times more effective (50 divided by 15). I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to test the limit of Fermaid O and find it to be even more effective.
Maybe part of the reason Tosna works for melovino meadery is because they use 71b (or do they?), which Lallemand list as needing "Very low requirement in assimilable nitrogen" http://www.lallemandyeast.com/company/products/71b-1122-wine-yeast
Although, then again lallemand list 71b as needing low nitrogen requirements here (vs very low) here http://www.lallemandwine.com/products/catalogue/product-detail/?range=9&id=76 so it could not mean anything, especially since low and very low are hardly scientific terms. Anyway, maybe 71b has lower than average nitrogen requirements and the overall provided nitrogen could be lessened a bit, but this is almost speculation.
Studies/Documents:
First off, Lallemand's number provided for Fermaid O in my link to the french pdf in this thread (and in the other thread) states that 1g Fermaid O provides the equivalent of 100ppm yan. The link by Zpeckler which leads to a batch calculator (in a google doc) also estimates 1g Fermaid O to provide over 100ppm yan per liter.
The study provided by medsen states that "At identical doses of added yan, the preparation based on amino acids from yeast has shown to be more effective than 100% ammonium nitrogen" (pg 3). So here again the study goes into effectiveness rather than just yan values.
I don't think the study is actually trying to measure the equivalent effectiveness unless I am missing something, so it doesn't get to the point of 5 times more effective. But it does get to 3-4x more effective than dap (3-4x also being quoted in Zpeckler's link):
"With only 15mg/l of yan added, the 40g/hl of organic nitrogen is as effective as the 50mg/l of the diammonium sulphate" (pg 6)
I.e. yan for yan, Fermaid O is at least 3.3 times more effective (50 divided by 15). I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to test the limit of Fermaid O and find it to be even more effective.
The Cider Handbook mentions '3-5x as effective'. They use the words 'has been shown to be'. Who showed them I don't know. It sure wasn't me.
Any link and page number kernel?
I just downloaded a cider handbook and can't find this information. "Has been shown to be" seems to be a common enough phrase by Lallemand and features 5 times in the handbook I downloaded. I have found in some places on the internet people referring to a study by Lallemand which says exactly this 3-5x amount, but unfortunately they never gave a link. With this showing up in the cider handbook I at least have more confidence that this study actually exists
Side note: That phrase is just a way of minimizing liability. For example, if a scientist does a good job he would say "I can find through my experiment...", while if he is not too proud he could say "we could find through my experiment...". The 'we' in the second case is asking the reader to look at information together, thus splitting the responsibility. I did an assignment on the use of 'we' for my degree in English and that was actually part of a study
Edit: I suspect you were referring to the 2013-2014 handbook, which from my brief browsing seems to have not been easily made available online
I just downloaded a cider handbook and can't find this information. "Has been shown to be" seems to be a common enough phrase by Lallemand and features 5 times in the handbook I downloaded. I have found in some places on the internet people referring to a study by Lallemand which says exactly this 3-5x amount, but unfortunately they never gave a link. With this showing up in the cider handbook I at least have more confidence that this study actually exists
Side note: That phrase is just a way of minimizing liability. For example, if a scientist does a good job he would say "I can find through my experiment...", while if he is not too proud he could say "we could find through my experiment...". The 'we' in the second case is asking the reader to look at information together, thus splitting the responsibility. I did an assignment on the use of 'we' for my degree in English and that was actually part of a study
Edit: I suspect you were referring to the 2013-2014 handbook, which from my brief browsing seems to have not been easily made available online
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Page 21 left bottom. 2015-16 print edition. We just googled and we see its in the last one too.
http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/2014CiderHandbook.pdf
just googled and we see its in the last one too. http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/2014CiderHandbook.pdf
Like Medsen and many others, I too am frustrated with measurements of the absolute vs effective YAN of Fermaid-O.
These days I'm using the TOSNA protocol for pretty much every mead I make (with the exception of hydromels) and have gotten great results with 71B, K1V, Wyeast 3711, and Wyeast 1388. I'm currently fermenting a 29°Br must using R2 for the first time, which has "high" nitrogen requirements per Lallemand. Things are progressing as expected with that batch. No major issues so far, but the proof will be in the pudding when the final mead is finished.
What I'd like to do to clarify exactly how much YAN the yeast are getting from Fermaid-O is get out a calculator and covert the TOSNA Fermaid-O dosages to absolute ppm YAN and g/L. I'd also like to set up an experiment using all Fermaid-O comparing the YAN levels recommended by TOSNA to the usual levels. Say, TOSNA vs 200ppm vs 300ppm, or something to that effect.
These days I'm using the TOSNA protocol for pretty much every mead I make (with the exception of hydromels) and have gotten great results with 71B, K1V, Wyeast 3711, and Wyeast 1388. I'm currently fermenting a 29°Br must using R2 for the first time, which has "high" nitrogen requirements per Lallemand. Things are progressing as expected with that batch. No major issues so far, but the proof will be in the pudding when the final mead is finished.
What I'd like to do to clarify exactly how much YAN the yeast are getting from Fermaid-O is get out a calculator and covert the TOSNA Fermaid-O dosages to absolute ppm YAN and g/L. I'd also like to set up an experiment using all Fermaid-O comparing the YAN levels recommended by TOSNA to the usual levels. Say, TOSNA vs 200ppm vs 300ppm, or something to that effect.
All right, TOSNA in terms of absolute YAN. This is "back of the envelope" so if my math is wrong let me know.
1g/gal=0.26g/L Rounded to 0.25g/L since TOSNA is supposed to be simple.
Assuming Fermaid-O gives 40mg/L absolute YAN if dosed at 1g/L, per Lallemand's publications and the white paper I linked to earlier in the thread.
0.25g/L Fermaid-O would give you 10mg/L absolute YAN.
For example, a 21° brix, 3.8L must. TOSNA says you need 200mg/L effective YAN. Following the TOSNA protocol, this would mean 50mg/L effective YAN * 4, so 1g/gal * 4.... 4g Fermaid-O for a 3.8L must.
4g Fermaid-O in 3.8L (round to 4L) gives you about 40mg/L absolute YAN.
Therefore, the revised TOSNA protocol for absolute YAN would be:
Flagrantly copied directly from MeadMadeRight.com
How much Fermaid-O do you need?
The amount of required nutrient addition is based on your starting gravity. For an easier calculation convert to Brix and figure out your target mg of nitrogen per liter using the following as a starting point:
21°Bx = 40 mgN/L absolute YAN
23°Bx = 50 mgN/L absolute YAN
25°Bx = 60 mgN/L absolute YAN
27°Bx = 70 mgN/L absolute YAN
0.25g/L of Fermaid-O = 10mgN/L absolute YAN
(always measure by weight, invest in a good grams scale)
Here is how to easily calculate your TOTAL Fermaid-O:
Target mgN/L (see above) divided by 10, then multiply by starting liters, then multiply by 0.25.
That will be how many TOTAL grams of Fermaid-O you will need.
You can divide the final number by 4 to get the grams of each individual nutrient addition you will be adding as follows:
- The first nutrient addition happens 24-hours after yeast pitch.
- Then at the 48 & 72 hour marks after yeast pitch.
- Final nutrient addition is on Day 7 after yeast pitch, or when fermentation has reached its 1/3 sugar break, whichever comes first.
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Someone please check my math. These absolute YAN numbers are crazy low, which makes me suspect I've made a calculation error. If not, then it goes back to the original topic of this thread... are we overfeeding our yeast?
1g/gal=0.26g/L Rounded to 0.25g/L since TOSNA is supposed to be simple.
Assuming Fermaid-O gives 40mg/L absolute YAN if dosed at 1g/L, per Lallemand's publications and the white paper I linked to earlier in the thread.
0.25g/L Fermaid-O would give you 10mg/L absolute YAN.
For example, a 21° brix, 3.8L must. TOSNA says you need 200mg/L effective YAN. Following the TOSNA protocol, this would mean 50mg/L effective YAN * 4, so 1g/gal * 4.... 4g Fermaid-O for a 3.8L must.
4g Fermaid-O in 3.8L (round to 4L) gives you about 40mg/L absolute YAN.
Therefore, the revised TOSNA protocol for absolute YAN would be:
Flagrantly copied directly from MeadMadeRight.com
How much Fermaid-O do you need?
The amount of required nutrient addition is based on your starting gravity. For an easier calculation convert to Brix and figure out your target mg of nitrogen per liter using the following as a starting point:
21°Bx = 40 mgN/L absolute YAN
23°Bx = 50 mgN/L absolute YAN
25°Bx = 60 mgN/L absolute YAN
27°Bx = 70 mgN/L absolute YAN
0.25g/L of Fermaid-O = 10mgN/L absolute YAN
(always measure by weight, invest in a good grams scale)
Here is how to easily calculate your TOTAL Fermaid-O:
Target mgN/L (see above) divided by 10, then multiply by starting liters, then multiply by 0.25.
That will be how many TOTAL grams of Fermaid-O you will need.
You can divide the final number by 4 to get the grams of each individual nutrient addition you will be adding as follows:
- The first nutrient addition happens 24-hours after yeast pitch.
- Then at the 48 & 72 hour marks after yeast pitch.
- Final nutrient addition is on Day 7 after yeast pitch, or when fermentation has reached its 1/3 sugar break, whichever comes first.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone please check my math. These absolute YAN numbers are crazy low, which makes me suspect I've made a calculation error. If not, then it goes back to the original topic of this thread... are we overfeeding our yeast?
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I looked at this and came to the conclusion that you did which is that Lallemand's info seems somewhat inconsistent. I am contacting them to ask for some clarification and will let folks know if I get a reply.
