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Thread: SG below 1/3 sugar break at 72 hours (TiOSNA)

  1. #1

    Default SG below 1/3 sugar break at 72 hours (TiOSNA)

    I started a fruit bomb mead on Christmas day following the TiSONA protocol with an OG of about 1.092 / 22.01 BRIX

    After 72 hours (yesterday) my SG had dropped to 1.060, which is around the 1/3rd sugar break. As we know, this is when the final 4th feeding is due, however being at the 72 hour mark this is when the 3rd feeding was due. I gave the 3rd feeding at 72 hours. Today my SG is down to 1.048 and I've given a 4th final feeding.

    Question is, was this correct? Should I have given a double feed at the 72 hour mark? Was I mistaken to give a 4th feed today?

    Recipe below

    OG: 1.092
    BRIX: 22.01
    pH: 4.1

    Total volume: 15L / 3.96 Gallon

    Temperature: 15-18C (FastFerment Jacket + Ice Bottles)

    Clear Blossom Honey: 5.4kg
    ICV-D47: 10g
    Tesco Frozen Edv Mixed Fruits (strawberries, blackberries, raspberries and blackcurrants): 5kg

    Potassium Bicarbonate: 1 tbsp - ADDED 12h before fruit and pitch
    Pectinase: 1 tbsp - ADDED 12h before fruit and pitch

    Rehydration
    GoFerm: 12.5g
    Water: 250ml

    Rehydrate yeast using GoFerm protocol
    - Mix 12.5g GoFerm with 250ml water @ 43C
    - Let cool to 40C
    - Add yeast
    - Let stand for 20mins
    - Add 250ml must
    - Let stand for 5mins
    - Repeat 2 more times

    TiOSNA - Low N * 0.75

    Brix x 10 x N requirement factor x batch size (gals) / 100 (ppm) = Total Fermaid-K (grams)

    22.01 * 10 * 0.75 * 3.96 / 100 = 6.53697g

    1.63g per serving
    fruit adjustment = 1.5g per serving (probably could have gone down to 1g, but 1.5 seemed so low anyway)

    Feed at:
    24h
    48h
    72h
    Day 7 / SG 1.0613

    25/12/2016 @ 10:15
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 10mins
    Pitched
    OG: 1.092
    pH: 4.1
    Temp: 16

    26/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-K added
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 5mins
    SG: 1.084
    pH: 3.9
    Temp: 16

    27/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-K added
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 5mins
    SG: 1.076
    pH: 3.8
    Temp: 15

    28/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-k added
    SG: 1.060
    pH: 3.7
    Temp: 16

    29/12/2016 @ 11:30
    1.5g F-k added
    SG: 1.048
    pH: 4.0
    Temp: 17

  2. #2
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    Default

    I think you'll be fine. The last feeding can be delayed by as much as seven days from pitch. I wouldn't have delayed the first feeding 24 hours, though. That's more of a rough guideline than an absolute rule. I like to add the first nutrients immediately when I notice the end of lag phase/the beginning of activity, which helps keep the feedings spaced one day apart like they should be. The yeast need the nutrients the most when they're getting established, so waiting an arbitrary 24 hours accomplishes nothing.

  3. #3
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    Aug 2016
    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by djsxxx View Post
    I started a fruit bomb mead on Christmas day following the TiSONA protocol with an OG of about 1.092 / 22.01 BRIX

    After 72 hours (yesterday) my SG had dropped to 1.060, which is around the 1/3rd sugar break. As we know, this is when the final 4th feeding is due, however being at the 72 hour mark this is when the 3rd feeding was due. I gave the 3rd feeding at 72 hours. Today my SG is down to 1.048 and I've given a 4th final feeding.

    Question is, was this correct? Should I have given a double feed at the 72 hour mark? Was I mistaken to give a 4th feed today?

    Recipe below

    OG: 1.092
    BRIX: 22.01
    pH: 4.1

    Total volume: 15L / 3.96 Gallon

    Temperature: 15-18C (FastFerment Jacket + Ice Bottles)

    Clear Blossom Honey: 5.4kg
    ICV-D47: 10g
    Tesco Frozen Edv Mixed Fruits (strawberries, blackberries, raspberries and blackcurrants): 5kg

    Potassium Bicarbonate: 1 tbsp - ADDED 12h before fruit and pitch
    Pectinase: 1 tbsp - ADDED 12h before fruit and pitch

    Rehydration
    GoFerm: 12.5g
    Water: 250ml

    Rehydrate yeast using GoFerm protocol
    - Mix 12.5g GoFerm with 250ml water @ 43C
    - Let cool to 40C
    - Add yeast
    - Let stand for 20mins
    - Add 250ml must
    - Let stand for 5mins
    - Repeat 2 more times

    TiOSNA - Low N * 0.75

    Brix x 10 x N requirement factor x batch size (gals) / 100 (ppm) = Total Fermaid-K (grams)

    22.01 * 10 * 0.75 * 3.96 / 100 = 6.53697g

    1.63g per serving
    fruit adjustment = 1.5g per serving (probably could have gone down to 1g, but 1.5 seemed so low anyway)

    Feed at:
    24h
    48h
    72h
    Day 7 / SG 1.0613

    25/12/2016 @ 10:15
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 10mins
    Pitched
    OG: 1.092
    pH: 4.1
    Temp: 16

    26/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-K added
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 5mins
    SG: 1.084
    pH: 3.9
    Temp: 16

    27/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-K added
    Oxygenated with aquarium air pump ~ 5mins
    SG: 1.076
    pH: 3.8
    Temp: 15

    28/12/2016 @ 10:00
    1.5g F-k added
    SG: 1.060
    pH: 3.7
    Temp: 16

    29/12/2016 @ 11:30
    1.5g F-k added
    SG: 1.048
    pH: 4.0
    Temp: 17

    I agree you are most likely fine but to ensure a more likely smooth fermentation(=less likely to stress the yeast) I recommend the folllowing based on BOMM protocol (=love of rose on here):
    3 feedings at
    1) end of lag phase
    2) 2/3 sugar break
    3) 1/3 sugar break

    This is more accurate than doing at daily feedings. This is especially true for slow fermenters like CY3079

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caduseus View Post
    I agree you are most likely fine but to ensure a more likely smooth fermentation(=less likely to stress the yeast) I recommend the folllowing based on BOMM protocol (=love of rose on here):
    3 feedings at
    1) end of lag phase
    2) 2/3 sugar break
    3) 1/3 sugar break

    This is more accurate than doing at daily feedings. This is especially true for slow fermenters like CY3079
    This is not all all what the yeast manufactures suggest in the manuals. Actually the daily feedings correspond much closer to what you will find in the handbooks/manuals.
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caduseus View Post
    I agree you are most likely fine but to ensure a more likely smooth fermentation(=less likely to stress the yeast) I recommend the folllowing based on BOMM protocol (=love of rose on here):
    3 feedings at
    1) end of lag phase
    2) 2/3 sugar break
    3) 1/3 sugar break

    This is more accurate than doing at daily feedings. This is especially true for slow fermenters like CY3079
    That may be the case for lors 1388 yeast, but I wouldn't say that applies to all yeast at all

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by djsxxx View Post
    That may be the case for lors 1388 yeast, but I wouldn't say that applies to all yeast at all

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    I would agree. I would definitely not ever feed a BOMM schedule with dry yeast.
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by djsxxx View Post
    After 72 hours (yesterday) my SG had dropped to 1.060, which is around the 1/3rd sugar break. As we know, this is when the final 4th feeding is due, however being at the 72 hour mark this is when the 3rd feeding was due. I gave the 3rd feeding at 72 hours. Today my SG is down to 1.048 and I've given a 4th final feeding.

    Question is, was this correct? Should I have given a double feed at the 72 hour mark? Was I mistaken to give a 4th feed today?
    Help me out here guys ... this "3rd's" thing has got me a bit goofy. isn't the 1/3 sugar break actually when 2/3 of sugar is used? for example, this started with a SG of 1.092 .... so ..... a 3rd is about .030 .... and ...

    OG 1.092 = 3/3 sugar (break?)
    SG 1.061 = 2/3 sugar break
    SG 1.030 = 1/3 sugar break
    SG 1.000 = 0/3 sugar break

    right or wrong? 1/3 sugar break isn't the point at which 1/3 sugar is gone ... it's when 1/3 sugar remains? right ?

    Thanks

    -T

  8. #8
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    Location
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    Last edited by darigoni; 05-30-2017 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Added Reddit post

  9. Default

    Yes I had and I just reread it ... I must have super fast fermentation. in all 3 batches (3,3,6 gallons) that I've done, the 1/3 sugar break has occurred well before day 3 (3rd addition of nutrients).

    here's my latest 'graph' (6 gal) all taken in 68F temps:

    0hours OG = 1.095 (after go ferm slurry pitch, started with 1.100 honey&water only)
    24hours SG = 1.088 (first fermaid o addition)
    48hours SG = 1.073 (second nutrients addition)
    72hours SG = 1.060 (3rd addition)
    6thday SG = 1.028 (4 addition of nutrients, I was incorectly calling this 1/3 sugar break)

    It just didn't make sense to me that the 1/3 in 1/3 sugar break was really a content of 2/3s the sugar ... my experience was in contrast.

    or I'm just making mistakes. yeah, that's the more likely reason, as you just pointed out.

    UGH!

  10. #10
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    Location
    Spain, Europe
    Posts
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    It happens sometimes since your gravities are "low" for mead the 1/3 comes sooner. Also adding more nutrients than what tiosna calls for makes the ferment go faster specially if it is fermaid K or anything that contains DAP (even if it is just a bit more). Your ferment is not specially fast. you can have ferments chugging 20-30 points per day if you feed them too much.

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dadux View Post
    It happens sometimes since your gravities are "low" for mead the 1/3 comes sooner. Also adding more nutrients than what tiosna calls for makes the ferment go faster specially if it is fermaid K or anything that contains DAP (even if it is just a bit more). Your ferment is not specially fast. you can have ferments chugging 20-30 points per day if you feed them too much.
    OK, in both our cases, the fermentation was "fast" compared to the calculated nutrient schedule. what do we do about it? reduce the amounts of nutrient (in spite of the calculator), or maybe make the batch a "really-low" nutrient need (N=.5 or lower, .25) ?

    now I'm all concerned my mead is gonna be the paint thinner type cause my ferment is gonna continue on it's steroid fueled way till there's nothing left but alcohol and dead yeast (and the water of course). any advice on this and the original posts concerns?

    and what is a good gravity to start with? my 1.095 was low ... from what I have read anything of 1.100 is in danger of being to much for the yeast. how about 1.120 ?

    thanks for any advice to save me.

    -T

  12. #12
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    Spain, Europe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchie View Post
    OK, in both our cases, the fermentation was "fast" compared to the calculated nutrient schedule. what do we do about it? reduce the amounts of nutrient (in spite of the calculator), or maybe make the batch a "really-low" nutrient need (N=.5 or lower, .25) ?

    now I'm all concerned my mead is gonna be the paint thinner type cause my ferment is gonna continue on it's steroid fueled way till there's nothing left but alcohol and dead yeast (and the water of course). any advice on this and the original posts concerns?

    and what is a good gravity to start with? my 1.095 was low ... from what I have read anything of 1.100 is in danger of being to much for the yeast. how about 1.120 ?

    thanks for any advice to save me.

    -T
    No, no. Fast ferment is not uncommon nor necesarily bad. I forgot to mention it can also happen when temperatures are higher and some yeasts are faster than others. But you neednt worry.
    Go ahead and recheck TiOSNA http://www.meadmaderight.com/tiosna--inorganic-.html
    If you do follow that and keep low temps (15-20C) there should be no problems. Try avoiding adding nutrients way past the 1/3 sugar break (its ok if it takes you by surprise a few points below but dont wait till 2/3).
    If you use TiOSNA formula and pitch normal ammounts of yeast and well rehidrated you should not have that much problems.

    The gravity is not the problem. IF you want you can of course raise it next time. Higher SG means more alcohol and usually more honey flavour and body. Yeast dont have problems until 1.110 but are ok if you rehidrate well with 1.120 or even 1.140. I dont recommend starting higher than 1.12 anyway, but you can add honey up to 1.120 and more honey after a couple days if you want more alcohol than that.

    now I'm all concerned my mead is gonna be the paint thinner type cause my ferment is gonna continue on it's steroid fueled way till there's nothing left but alcohol and dead yeast (and the water of course). any advice on this and the original posts concerns?

    Mead usually runs dry at those SG. D47 is not taht much of a beast so i dont think it will go below 1.000. If you are not happy with the end result, you can backsweeten for more sweetness and body, or use glicerol for more body (be careful, too much will ruin it). Also you can take some bite off the alcohol with oak. I recommend you read a post by Squatchy about how to balance your mead if you dont like the end results. IF somehow it goes beyond 1.000 you might find it really thin, it happened to me once it ended at 0.990 and i definitely did not like that. Backsweetening solves that. But dont worry im sure it will be fine

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchie View Post
    OK, in both our cases, the fermentation was "fast" compared to the calculated nutrient schedule. what do we do about it? reduce the amounts of nutrient (in spite of the calculator), or maybe make the batch a "really-low" nutrient need (N=.5 or lower, .25) ?

    now I'm all concerned my mead is gonna be the paint thinner type cause my ferment is gonna continue on it's steroid fueled way till there's nothing left but alcohol and dead yeast (and the water of course). any advice on this and the original posts concerns?

    and what is a good gravity to start with? my 1.095 was low ... from what I have read anything of 1.100 is in danger of being to much for the yeast. how about 1.120 ?

    thanks for any advice to save me.

    -T
    keep your nutrient schedule per recommended TiOSNA.
    1) Keep in mind that low ABV meads (<7%) will ferment very fast because these yeast were meant for much higher SG must and will see this as childs-play work.
    2) If as your temp rises, the ferment will go faster. As summer is approaching this will be a concern for any who don't have temps control or a basement/cellar.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadux View Post
    It happens sometimes since your gravities are "low" for mead the 1/3 comes sooner. Also adding more nutrients than what tiosna calls for makes the ferment go faster specially if it is fermaid K or anything that contains DAP (even if it is just a bit more). Your ferment is not specially fast. you can have ferments chugging 20-30 points per day if you feed them too much.
    I have had perfectly fine ferments also eat this much per day. Even in controlled environments and correct YAN calcs.
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

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