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Thread: A newish sulfite paper

  1. #1

    Default A newish sulfite paper

    This might be new to some of you.

    http://mastervintner.com/blog/lies-d...tes-the-facts/

    Ryan
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

  2. #2

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    Very interesting, but would love to comment on it. Some of the article is right and some is not so right.
    While if you did not know it, its valuable info, and i recommend reading it, there is more to the issue.

    People who claim to suffer headaches from red wines or whatever would do well in reading your article. Its most likely for the reason explained there they have problems.
    However, as far as i know, there is such thing as sulphite sensitivity. https://www.allergy.org.au/patients/...ulfite-allergy
    I think its wrongly called allergy and its more of a sensitivity (personal oppinion here, you can find it under both names tbh), but its not the same think that your article talks about. There are people who actually do get really bad reactions to ANY food with sulphites. They usually tolerate really low levels of sulhpites so sulhpite "free" wine is probably ok for them (even if it has traces of sulphites, because concentrations matter). Its for this all of my bottles now are labeled stating that i have (or i have not) used sulhpites. In case someone else drinks them i dont want the having a problem. I am an allergic myself to other things and it is horrible when someone does not state allergenic products in their product and i get allergic reactions.
    Also i should remark that those reactions only happen with sulphites and not with sulfates and other sulfur compounds.

    Sorry to be so critic with the article, Squatchy, but i do think its important people know that there are people like this. Its like comparing an intolerance with an allergy. One is an incommodity and well yes it can be painful or whatever, while the other can have various effect, from inflamation and respiratory problems, to killing you.

    Apart from that, the article is really good, and some of it was new to me. I do recommend reading it, specially to many people i've seen in the forum saying they have problems with sulphited wines, but keep in mind what i wrote above.

  3. #3
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    Thank you Dadux. I know someone with a serious "sensitivity" to sulfites. It's no joke to her.
    Dave from New Haven County

  4. #4

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    The article does seem harsh at best, biased at worst. I am sure there are good arguments to both sides of the debate.
    My belief is to avoid adding anything chemical or otherwise that is not needed or can be avoided by dealing with the problem in another way.
    Of course I am not trying to sell my mead or store it for a long period, so I can get away with it.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by WayneG View Post
    The article does seem harsh at best, biased at worst. I am sure there are good arguments to both sides of the debate.
    My belief is to avoid adding anything chemical or otherwise that is not needed or can be avoided by dealing with the problem in another way.
    Of course I am not trying to sell my mead or store it for a long period, so I can get away with it.
    To me the article seems ok. I've read some about the topic of sulphites in general. It is true that a lot of foods contain a shitload of sulhpites, in many cases more than wine. It is a bit sentationalistic, but the info is not bad.
    And it speaks about those people who drink wine, get a big headache and just go and blame it on the sulhpites. About that it might be right. It does seem legit, at least (thats all im willing to say without researching the topic further, because there are no references in the article), and its something worth to know.
    Sulphites are used in wine for a reason, and they are a good tool. But you gotta be careful who you give what. The easiest way is to make it clear it does contain sulphites, because for a minority it is a real problem.
    I dont directly know anyone that suffers from this, but i do a couple of people indirectly, thorugh friends. I figured better safe than sorry, it only takes a little space in my labels. After all i want my meads to be a source of enjoyment, and not of pain.

    The article says that there is no such things as "sulphite allregy". Is it true? is it false? I dont know. I know some people are indeed affected by this in a very bad way, and that its still to be determined if it is an allergic respones or what. Thats why i prefer to call it sensitivity. It might be an allergy, i dont pretend to know. Each one can call it what they want. But the article is right because the people who get tipsy easier or get a bigger headache with red wines is not because they are "allergic to sulphites", nor because they are sensitive to it. For me, its useful info, but take everything with some suspicion. Thats why i say its sensationalistic. There is some truth, coated with some ignorance or just marketing to attract readers. Because anyone with 5 minutes can search "sulphite allergy" and find the same things i did. Just because some is false dont take all as false. Just because some is true, dont take it all as true. And remember, since you make the product, it is your responsability to be aware of this things, for the sake of others.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadux View Post
    To me the article seems ok. I've read some about the topic of sulphites in general. It is true that a lot of foods contain a shitload of sulhpites, in many cases more than wine. It is a bit sentationalistic, but the info is not bad.
    And it speaks about those people who drink wine, get a big headache and just go and blame it on the sulhpites. About that it might be right. It does seem legit, at least (thats all im willing to say without researching the topic further, because there are no references in the article), and its something worth to know.
    Sulphites are used in wine for a reason, and they are a good tool. But you gotta be careful who you give what. The easiest way is to make it clear it does contain sulphites, because for a minority it is a real problem.
    I dont directly know anyone that suffers from this, but i do a couple of people indirectly, thorugh friends. I figured better safe than sorry, it only takes a little space in my labels. After all i want my meads to be a source of enjoyment, and not of pain.

    The article says that there is no such things as "sulphite allregy". Is it true? is it false? I dont know. I know some people are indeed affected by this in a very bad way, and that its still to be determined if it is an allergic respones or what. Thats why i prefer to call it sensitivity. It might be an allergy, i dont pretend to know. Each one can call it what they want. But the article is right because the people who get tipsy easier or get a bigger headache with red wines is not because they are "allergic to sulphites", nor because they are sensitive to it. For me, its useful info, but take everything with some suspicion. Thats why i say its sensationalistic. There is some truth, coated with some ignorance or just marketing to attract readers. Because anyone with 5 minutes can search "sulphite allergy" and find the same things i did. Just because some is false dont take all as false. Just because some is true, dont take it all as true. And remember, since you make the product, it is your responsability to be aware of this things, for the sake of others.
    Sulphites like food foods can have two types of reactions for the body:
    1) Allergies- an allergy is anything that can cause one of the following: any type of rash, any type of swelling, any type of shortness of breath, or anyphylactic shock
    2) Sensitivity- any other side effects or discomfort

    In addition it is not simple to say allergy is mild and sensitivity is severe. As an allergy can be a mild rash the person does not even feel or itches but can see. It can also put the person's life in danger
    A sensitivity can be a mild flush (but no pain) that goes away in 10 minutes or it can be a debilitating migraine and general malaise that lasts days.

    The only assumption you can make is that the worst case scenario of an allergy (anaphylactic shock) is worse than the worst case scenario for sensitivity (debilitating migraine and malaise).

    Example: Gluten allergy= celiac disease. Gluten sensitivity is another animal entirely.

    I believe few people have either with sulphites but when it happens it is usually a sensitivity. That said when it does it can be debilitating for some and milder for others.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by caduseus View Post
    Sulphites like food foods can have two types of reactions for the body:
    1) Allergies- an allergy is anything that can cause one of the following: any type of rash, any type of swelling, any type of shortness of breath, or anyphylactic shock
    2) Sensitivity- any other side effects or discomfort

    In addition it is not simple to say allergy is mild and sensitivity is severe. As an allergy can be a mild rash the person does not even feel or itches but can see. It can also put the person's life in danger
    A sensitivity can be a mild flush (but no pain) that goes away in 10 minutes or it can be a debilitating migraine and general malaise that lasts days.

    The only assumption you can make is that the worst case scenario of an allergy (anaphylactic shock) is worse than the worst case scenario for sensitivity (debilitating migraine and malaise).

    Example: Gluten allergy= celiac disease. Gluten sensitivity is another animal entirely.

    I believe few people have either with sulphites but when it happens it is usually a sensitivity. That said when it does it can be debilitating for some and milder for others.
    Not to contradict you specifically, while those are the usualy symptoms fro allergies, its not all there is, and an allergy is a inmune response to something (mediated by a certain type of leukocyte, and with other characteristics), be it pollen, food or others, its caused by molecule, usually a protein. Intolerances and sensitivities dont necesarily work that way. Its usually the inability of the body to metabolize or get rid of some molecule.
    Example: lactose intolerant people do not metabolize lactose, and that is the cause of them feeling bad. People allergic to milk have responses to milk proteins, not lactose (a sugar). Lab Grade lactose (the one used to do medicines and not the common milk-purified lactose used in the food industry) is not a problem for the second group. Lactoseless milk is ok for the first group but not the second. You see my point.
    Sulphites affect people in an unknown way. But let me tell you, i very much doubt its allergy, since that is usually protein related. Very very usually. Also allergies nearly always give stronger responses than sensitivities and intolerances, and you can indeed die from anaphilactic shock. Anyway, as i said, its still to be dertermined how it affects people.

  8. #8
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    To most people, sensitivity and allergies are the same thing - a physical reaction of some sort. Technically I guess that's not true, but personally I see it as semantics. The article however claims that whatever reaction someone has to wine is due to something other than sulfite, which is totally untrue. There ARE people who react to sulfites.

    The same arguments are made concerning MSG. People note that some foods contain MSG naturally - like tomatoes, mushrooms, and Parmesan cheese. The stuff that people react to is not the natural form, but the chemical form manufactured from Monsanto sugar beets. My mom would get violently ill if she ate Chinese food or some canned soups.
    Dave from New Haven County

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    I am not inclined to use sulfite because I am inherently adverse to adding chemicals of any kind to anything I eat or produce. I am mostly an organic type of guy, hence why I choose to use Fermaid-O as my nutrient of choice (in addition to all the current evidence showing it superior). I am currently experimenting with cold crashing and filtering before choosing to use sulfite. Having said that, I read this article that Squatchy provided us and I must say that it is very convincing about the historical use and safety of sulfite. It makes sense that the malo lactic fermentation process may be the actual culprit instead of sulfite that people so commonly complain of. It seems as if most people don't realize this and thus want to demonize sulfite. Especially considering that sulfites are in almost everything we consume in food, unless you pick everything you eat off the bush, which obviously the vast majority of people don't. At the expense of seeming that I am kissing Squatchy's ass with a brown nose, I will say that his advice has been instrumental in my mead making knowledge skyrocketing to a level that I could only hope to accomplish in years of experience on my own. Therefore, I will give this information some serious consideration.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    …fermentation and plant use – as medicine, as psychotropics, as teachers, as companions on our life path – are an inescapable part of our exploration of what it means to be human; that, in fact, our humanness (as we now understand it) could not have occurred without the gift of fermentation or plants.
    ~ Stephen Harrod Buhner

  10. #10

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    Thanks for the kind words X-tian

    It's guys like you and many others, that make it worth all the hard work for trying to keep this place fresh and interesting. You won't be able to buy a home style filter that will sterilized your meads unfortunately. At least that I'm aware of. My understanding is we're looking at .45 absol;ute to make this happen. I think .45 nominal is the tightest I have found. That just forces one to sit on a bone dry mead for a very long time before you can safely add anything later without restarting fermentation.
    7 out of 4 people have a hard time using their hydrometer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatchy View Post
    Thanks for the kind words X-tian

    It's guys like you and many others, that make it worth all the hard work for trying to keep this place fresh and interesting. You won't be able to buy a home style filter that will sterilized your meads unfortunately. At least that I'm aware of. My understanding is we're looking at .45 absol;ute to make this happen. I think .45 nominal is the tightest I have found. That just forces one to sit on a bone dry mead for a very long time before you can safely add anything later without restarting fermentation.
    Yeah, unfortunately I think you are right. Gonna try, but will remain open to sulfite if I can't make it work.

    And thank you for all you contribute here. Undoubtedly it takes a lot of time and effort. Everything you have to say is much appreciated!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    …fermentation and plant use – as medicine, as psychotropics, as teachers, as companions on our life path – are an inescapable part of our exploration of what it means to be human; that, in fact, our humanness (as we now understand it) could not have occurred without the gift of fermentation or plants.
    ~ Stephen Harrod Buhner

  12. #12
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    Here's a post from a cider forum. There is no MLF involved.

    So every time I have some of my cider (doesn't matter the batch), I get a really bad blush on cheeks and quite often my hands swell up (to the point I cannot move my band on my finger which is normally loose) and my face feels like I have a sunburn.

    ...and it's kinda gettting worse.

    When I bottled some cider at a local brewery (they force carb'd it) he was a little concerned how red I became after drinking a glass. Never thought anything of it. This is definitely worse with my ciders than commercial ones.

    I'm using one campden per gallon, then at first racking I'm using 1/4 tsp k-meta for 6 gallons total. At bottling I've been adding 1/8 tsp k-meta for all remaining 5.5 gallons or so.

    I don't drink wine often (couple times a year) but do get this feeling when I have it.

    ...and I have 150L of cider on currently....

    if I can't have sulfites - what now? Most of my ciders are in secondary and are about 6-8 weeks old from pitching
    Still think it's nonsense?
    Dave from New Haven County

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