• PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.

Mead Too Sweet

Barrel Char Wood Products

Farmboyc

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 2, 2015
384
0
0
Just looking for some advice. I recently finished making a Bochet with DV10.

Used 10Kg of caramelized honey in 24L and feed with Fermaid O I believe 4 additions of around 9g each.

Fermentation seemed strong enough but quit at 1.044ish which is way too sweet for this guy. By my math that leaves me with about 11ish % abv and a remaining alcohol potential of around 6ish%.

Tried a re-start with EC 1118 following Lavlin protocol and there has been no additional fermentation in a week.

So I am considering a couple options.

1) Start another traditional must and blend in the Bochet in hopes of restarting fermentation.
2) Make a very dry traditional of around 8ish% and blend.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

This is my first couple batches with Fermaid O and my first ever Bochet.

Is it normal for Bochet to leave this much residual sugar?

I made a sack mead with DV 10 and Dap/Fermaid K and it took 11.5kg of honey in 24 L down to 1.00 and did so fairly easily.

Any other suggestions on taking the sweetness?

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
13
38
Malta
So my guess is that your protocol isn't the best. While you might have been able to ferment 11kgs in 24 liters maybe your method isn't good enough to do this consistently. Maybe it was the rehydration, atemperament, aeration and I highly suspect osmotic shock.
The fact that Ec 1118 didn't restart the ferment might indicate that something is wrong with your must. Lack of nutrients, ph... or maybe you didn't follow the rehydration protocol correctly, or maybe the packs of yeast are duds (uncommon but still possible).
Both of your options would likely work but I am afraid that your work to create a bochet would be for nothing. If you gave more details we might be able to help you restart
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
261
83
Denver
Dv10 is as strong of a yeast as K1V or EC. So I don't think it's the yeast fault. There is a certain way you need to restart a stuck fermentation. Just repitching doesn't usually work once you have a fair amount of alcohol already. Page 28 will give you the idea. You don't need the yeast if you use one of the 3 yeast in above. But the process here is what you need to employ. http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottlabsHandbook2016.pdf

The very first thing you should have checked is pH. Fermaid O does a great job of Buffering pH. But that's the first culprit. I would have added some O2 after stirring the hell out of that. I also wonder if you let all the yeast settle to the bottom instead of rousing the yeast all the time. Once they pile up on the bottom they no longer have very much exposure to the nutrients nor the honet. And essentually you are burrying them alive. This causes thenm to stress and cause off flavors.


And a Bouchet usually had no problem going dry. It's a misnomer it leaves unfermentable sugars behind.

Lastly, I would make a real high abv mead and run it dry. This will help when you add it to the too sweet must. The dry will bring down you abv a little And the high ABV will counter some of the Sweetness. Also, use DV10. It makes some nice acidic profile which will also counter your problem. And of course if y9ou make it with cooked honey that will work even better. FYI. Most people really overcook the honey and this adds a sharp acrid fraction that will never go away. Go low. Just to the place where it is bubbling just a tiny bit and let it turn 2-3 shades darker . No more. And this will give you the sweet caramel piece you want.
 
Last edited:

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
13
38
Malta
Lastly, I would make a real high abv mead and run it dry. This will help when you add it to the too sweet must. The dry will bring down you abv (SG!) a little And the high ABV will counter some of the Sweetness.

Don't forget to stabilize if you're going this exact route since otherwise your ferment might pick up again and you could be left with something high abv and dry
 

bernardsmith

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Sep 1, 2013
1,611
32
48
Saratoga Springs , NY
To Squatchy's point about making a high ABV mead to salvage this stalled batch - I don't know that the mead you want to blend with needs necessarily to have a high ABV. It needs to have as high an ABV as you want the blend to have when you add the stalled mead to this new batch. The critical factor is not the second mead's ABV, it's the volume of this second batch. (the same volume again at any ABV but fermented brut dry will halve the final gravity and so the actual sweetness - granted , not necessarily the perceived sweetness) You might need to use a Pearson's Square to determine the volume if the element you are focused on is the total final actual sweetness. This mathematical tool will also help determine the ABV of the second batch if you know what ABV the total volume you want.
If you are unfamiliar with a Pearson's Square I think there are good references if you "google" the phrase.
 

Farmboyc

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 2, 2015
384
0
0
OK so I followed the re-start protocol except for the rescue for 24-48h. Never heard of the product and is certainly. It avaliable to me in under 10 days.

I did in fact rouse the yeast daily.
The caramelized honey was added in
2 additions 7kg for the initial must and then 3 kg on day 5. I believe the SG was around 1.06 at this time.

I did hydrate with GoFerm and paid attention to temperature on both honey additions. The fermentation carried on strongly for about 7 days after the second honey addition and started to slow down. I added an additional 4g of Fermaid O that seemed to have zero affect.

The current pH is around 3.6 and I have Potassium Carbonate but have not adjusted yet as this is a ph that I have successfully fermented at in the past.

I have made most of my meads at 13-14% and a few at 16ish%.
The most notable change in this instance was the use of Fermaid O. I did a mixed berry melomel at the same time with the same protocol and fermented to 1.00 with a final abv of 14%.

Is 16% asking too much out of a Fermaid O fermentation?

Fermentation temps were around 18C and the mead was de-gassed and aerated twice daily for the first 5 days then de-gassed daily after that.

I aerated with an aquarium pump as I have not made the leap to pure O2 as of yet.


Any other specific info you would like I will try my best to remember. I am currently toy away from my notes.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
 

Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,123
13
38
Malta
16% is definitely doable with fermaid O from my experience, although I had a huge biomass in my case from a previous ferment. but even if it weren't possible without a huge biomass you can certainly do more than 11% with fermaid O and that yeast.
High gravity batches could be tricky. I think overpitching yeast is a must, but again you stalled at 11% which is weird. Are you sure you did not miscalculate something? Perhaps initial volume, wieght of honey, Sg?

Are you sure you're using Fermaid O? Did you buy a sealed official foil pack from Lallemand with a clear best before date, or is this a brewstore repack? If it's a repack *maybe* the brewstore isn't selling the best product. If most people make wines rater than mead they would hardly notice too.

If your total batch size is 24 liters then you technically only needed 32g of fermaid O. Using 36g (4 additions of 9g) is a nice compensation for having a high gravity must and it should have at least gone beyond 11% abv. However, you mentioning that you added 4g in the last post makes it unclear if all additions were 9g.

Finally, did you aerate the crap out of this batch?
Oh well... from what you mention I'm not sure what could have gone wrong. but something must be amiss
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
261
83
Denver
To Squatchy's point about making a high ABV mead to salvage this stalled batch - I don't know that the mead you want to blend with needs necessarily to have a high ABV. It needs to have as high an ABV as you want the blend to have when you add the stalled mead to this new batch. The critical factor is not the second mead's ABV, it's the volume of this second batch. (the same volume again at any ABV but fermented brut dry will halve the final gravity and so the actual sweetness - granted , not necessarily the perceived sweetness) You might need to use a Pearson's Square to determine the volume if the element you are focused on is the total final actual sweetness. This mathematical tool will also help determine the ABV of the second batch if you know what ABV the total volume you want.
If you are unfamiliar with a Pearson's Square I think there are good references if you "google" the phrase.

Good point Bernard. I didn't look at his originol folume. And I just figured most newbee's would only want to make a small amount to change the over all gravity.
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
261
83
Denver
So it looks as if you were well educated before you started this. Did you attemperate your yeast slurry to within 10C of the must temp before pitching? I have had both of those strains hit 20% with no problem every time I have asked that from them. One thing to note. Yeast no longer can assimilate any type of nutrient once they get to 10% ABV. And I too have never had any batch stall with pH issues until under 3.0 and many can go even lower. I believe that's mostly misinformation. Or perhaps. Not as much an issue now that we superman the crap out of our yeast with modern science.
 

Farmboyc

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 2, 2015
384
0
0
Yup attempered my original must. I initially pitched 20g of dry DV10. It was however some leftover from a 50 gram pack that I got last year. Another possible issue.

Been on here for a while and have been paying attention.

My Fermaid O was a repack from a brewing supply place so that may be an issue. The 4g addition of Fermaid O was actually a 5th addition and realistically more of a tablespoon in an effort to pick activity back up.


I will give a re-start another shot this weekend after a through aeration and see if I can breath some life back into it. May have pushed too hard and too fast and certain did not aerated.

Would EC118 be the most robust yeast to try? How much would you suggest. This is my first stalled ferment Nd attempt at a re-start so I am more than open to suggestions.

Sorry for the crappy spelling and grammar. Big fingers on a little phone.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
 

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
261
83
Denver
Dv10 is a great yeast to restart with. Same as EC. I'm wondering if your yeast was not very viable? Even still. If it did get off I would expect it to have been able to get to the finish line. I would do this instead. Just make a fresh batch. Once it gets underway and is running strong. Add a small fraction of the old stuff every day until you have it all in and running. That is if you're certain the old batch doesn't have any living biomass in it. I would choose DV10 over EC for a Bouchet.
 

JamesMTH

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Apr 22, 2016
83
0
0
California
The caramelized honey was added in

Caramelized how? Boiled until it turned brownish?

If you caramelized the honey with heat, then you made some of the sugar indigestible by the yeast. Are you sure about it not just changing the sugar just enough so the yeast can't eat it but still get the sg down to 1.000?

We're you trying to make a Bochet? Do you have a link to the original recipe?
 
Last edited:

Squatchy

Lifetime GotMead Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Nov 3, 2014
5,542
261
83
Denver
Caramelized how? Boiled until it turned brownish?

If you caramelized the honey with heat, then you made some of the sugar indigestible by the yeast. Are you sure about it not just changing the sugar just enough so the yeast can't eat it but still get the sg down to 1.000?

We're you trying to make a Bochet? Do you have a link to the original recipe?

Hi James. I have made several Bochets. ANd also Polled several others as well. I don't believe that you end up with much if any unfermentable sugars. The pole came out as .01 left over residual. And may people went dry> Can you point me to something that would confirm unfermentable sugars after its cooked please
 

Farmboyc

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 2, 2015
384
0
0
Caramelized how? Boiled until it turned brownish?

If you caramelized the honey with heat, then you made some of the sugar indigestible by the yeast. Are you sure about it not just changing the sugar just enough so the yeast can't eat it but still get the sg down to 1.000?

We're you trying to make a Bochet? Do you have a link to the original recipe?
No recipe just carmelized honey, black tea for tannin, water, yeast.

I did bring my homey to a simmer and held it there until it changed from the white of clover honey to a brownish red. Was looking for a medium type of carmelization as was suggested by people on here.

I was expecting and prepared for some residual sweetness however I believe 1.045 is too much. I would be happy with 1.01 to 1.02

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
 

JamesMTH

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Apr 22, 2016
83
0
0
California
Hi James. I have made several Bochets. ANd also Polled several others as well. I don't believe that you end up with much if any unfermentable sugars. The pole came out as .01 left over residual. And may people went dry> Can you point me to something that would confirm unfermentable sugars after its cooked please

Well after hours of researching I can confirm but not give a quantity of unfermentable sugars lol. There are a few beer brewing sites that talk about caramelized sugar having some unfermentable sugars (LINK).

Dr Malt says "Brewers yeast can metabolize sugars made up of one, two and three glucose units (glucose, maltose, maltotriose). Anything larger than that and they can not metabolize them. Thus, carbohydrate units of of 4, 5 ,6 etc glucose units remain in the beer as unfermentables to provide a sweetness, viscosity and elevated final gravity. Mashing at higher temperatures produces more of these larger carbohydrates due to the high temperature activity of alpha amylase." (LINK)

I tried to find anything about the chemical composition of caramelized honey, the only thing I could find was in J Food Sci Technol ( February 2018 ) 55(2):586–597, called "Chemical properties of commercially available honey species and the functional properties of caramelization and Maillard reaction products derived from these honey species" but hehe they didnt analyze for carbohydrates or proteins. So it didnt have the information.

Then I started looking at caramelization of sugar itself. THIS site has some information. I also found this article "Unraveling the Chemical Composition of Caramel" by Agnieszka Golon and Nikolai Kuhnert in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry 2012, Issue 60, Page 3266−3274. In the conclusion it states "Products formed in the caramelization of glucose, fructose, and saccharose include oligomers with up to six carbohydrate units formed through unselective glycosidic bond formation, dehydration products of oligomers losing up to a maximum of eight water molecules, including products of initial dehydration at the reducing end sugar leading to hydroxyfurfural derivatives, hydration products of sugar oligomers, disproportionation products, and colored aromatic products for which molecular formulas could be suggested."

I will have to read through it a few more times (hehe chemistry is not something I use everyday) to see if I can decipher how much of these oligomers are created by volume or mass. I am not sure if they actually measure the quantity though.

It sounds like your poll and testing showed the SG after fermentation of caramelized honey was <1 to 1.010 SG. So depending on a few things it "could" be possible that this bochet has a lot of unfermentable sugars.

It sounded like all of the honey in this recipe had been caramelized, in the few bochets recipes that I have seen it was only like <20% of the total volume of honey used that was caramelized. At least thats what I can remember hehe.

When you took the poll, did you ask for the total honey used and the caramelized honey used? With that data we might be able to create an equation to guesstimate the FG of the bochet depending on qty of caramelized honey used. It will not be a very accurate equations unless we created a designed experiment that limited extraneous variables, which might be a fun.
 

bernardsmith

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Sep 1, 2013
1,611
32
48
Saratoga Springs , NY
But if caramelization does result in unfermentable sugars then those unfermentable sugars would be present whether 100 % of the honey was caramelized or 20% was. I have made bochets only a few times and have yet to find that the yeasts I use do not treat the must and then the mead in the same way they treat raw honey. And I aim for brut dry meads.
 

JamesMTH

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Apr 22, 2016
83
0
0
California
Right but quantity is a variable in the reaction. You also have to look at the process. The temp and time at temp will also have a factor. If you were using a crock pot with the honey sealed in the jar, will the water molecules detach from the sugar chains allowing the 4-6 oligomers to form? Or since they are not allowed to cook off as steam will they break up those oligomers to reform in smaller fermentable sugars if the more complex carbohydrates were even formed?

I have no idea hehe, I am a mechanical engineer, need a chemical engineer to take a look hehe.

Of the Bochets made how many caramelized more then 1-2 lbs of honey? It looks like all 22 pounds were caramelized in this batch. With that much I would think it's plausible that a little over a pound of complex unfermentable sugars could of been created.

EDIT: Sorry I miscalculated I'm trying to reply on my phone lol. OK so it looks like this batch is 6.3 gallons, so it would need to be a little over 6 pounds of the 22 pounds on honey that turned into unfermentable sugars. Which seems like a lot, but it might not be. It needs further study for sure. He has used some pretty hardy yeast though, so unless the pH is way out of wack I still think it's plausible.

If I had time I would experiment on it hehe, but I barely have time to read the boards these days.
 
Last edited:

Farmboyc

NewBee
Registered Member
Sep 2, 2015
384
0
0
It appears as though my yeast wasnt up to the task.

I pitched some new DV10 in a 23L batch with 7kg of honey. Split the batch into 2 and added the stalled mead slowly in equal parts over a 4 day span.

Measure SG today and it is sitting at 1.01 and the ferment is still active.

Lesson learned. I will be using my yeast up sooner. The first attempt was 20g from a 50g pack I bought last year.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
 

JamesMTH

Got Mead? Patron
GotMead Patron
Apr 22, 2016
83
0
0
California
Congrats, guess there goes my theory hehe. Quick question or two, how much of your honey did you cook? How did you cook it? Glad it got worked out.
 
Barrel Char Wood Products

Viking Brew Vessels - Authentic Drinking Horns