Second batch of cider - no nutrient experiment

[Valcarion]

So my last batch turned out decent. It was 1.050 SG, and I used 71b, pectic enzyme, and Fermax nutrients. I fed it about 3/4 tsp total over 36 hours, and it was bone dry in less than 48 hours total. This time I’m using the same juice and same yeast (same SG), but intentionally not adding nutrients to see how well it does. As someone who learned about mead first this is a bit of a nail biter, but so far so good!

I pitched the rehydrated (in reverse osmosis water) yeast at about 8pm yesterday, so it’s been 24 hours. It’s at 1.030 now, so that’s 20 points in the first 24 hours. The batch that I added nutrients to was at 1.022 by this time, so just a bit slower. Much more H2S with this batch, doing my best to degas as much as I can. Taste is just as good, so from what I can tell a slower yet less clean ferment this time around, with barely any difference in taste. That’s what I expected honestly. My hypotheses is that a proper SNA using Fermaid O, along with rehydration with GoFerm, will be the best way to go, as it would be with mead. We’ll see!

I plan on letting this batch sit on the lees for a bit longer before racking, as the last batch I racked 72 hours after pitch. I worry about diacetyl a bit, so I think this is the right call. My last batch had some H2S output after fermentation completed, and I’ve been gently degassing the wine bottles I have it aging in almost every day. There’s barely any sulfur smell now, but it took almost a full week to stop smelling horrible every time I opened a bottle. I’m interested to see if this batch does the same.

For those that didn’t see the last batch’s log, I’m using Mrs Gooch’s Apple Juice from Whole Foods. It’s $6-$7 USD at my local store, and it’s unpasteurized with no artificial color/flavor/additives of any kind. Lots of sediment at the bottom of the bottle in the store so I figure that’s all the good stuff that clarified store bought juice is missing!


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[Toxxyc]

You're getting H2S because the yeast isn't as happy. Leaving it on the lees will get rid of more of the H2S naturally as well, and you'll then save yourself the trouble of burping every single bottle every day. Just leave it under airlock for a week or two longer

PS: The sediment is both proteins and pectins from the juice and yeast.

 

[Valcarion]

You're getting H2S because the yeast isn't as happy. Leaving it on the lees will get rid of more of the H2S naturally as well, and you'll then save yourself the trouble of burping every single bottle every day. Just leave it under airlock for a week or two longer

PS: The sediment is both proteins and pectins from the juice and yeast.

I figured that was the case. I’m assuming I’ll get more H2S throughout this ferment, but less overall after giving it the extra time on the lees this time.


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[Stasis]

H2s? It smells of rotten egg? That's weird, especially in the first 24 hours. Surely there's enough nutrient in cider to ferment for a day without producing H2s. I ferment cider from juice without ever getting a whiff of H2s. But I guess not all ciders are made the same. I'm also surprised your first batch had H2s after adding Fermax, although I never went this route myself

 

[Valcarion]

H2s? It smells of rotten egg? That's weird, especially in the first 24 hours. Surely there's enough nutrient in cider to ferment for a day without producing H2s. I ferment cider from juice without ever getting a whiff of H2s. But I guess not all ciders are made the same. I'm also surprised your first batch had H2s after adding Fermax, although I never went this route myself

It may be my temps. I don’t have temp control, other than ambient temp in the house, which is 68F year round. I bet if I was using something like D21 I may get less rotten egg smells. The batch with fermax didn’t have any off smell until after it finished fermenting, which is why I racked so early. Now I know not to do that lol.


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[Stasis]

It seems K1v is possibly the best dry yeast by lallemand for ciders. This has been stated from time to time on these forums on different posts. It has a "Very large range of fermentation temperatures (10 to 35°C)" and "Low production of H2S". Maybe I wasn't getting any detectable H2s because I was using K1v on even lower temps than you

 

[Valcarion]

It seems K1v is possibly the best dry yeast by lallemand for ciders. This has been stated from time to time on these forums on different posts. It has a "Very large range of fermentation temperatures (10 to 35°C)" and "Low production of H2S". Maybe I wasn't getting any detectable H2s because I was using K1v on even lower temps than you

Ahh gotcha. I should give that strain a try! I’ve been thinking of using ale yeast as well, maybe a saison strain. I love all of the options, endless experimentation!


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[bernardsmith]

Not an expert cider maker by any stretch of the imagination but not all apples are rich in nitrogen - and indeed there is a British and French approach to cider making called skeeving that deliberately uses / creates a lack of nitrogen to produce a naturally sweeter cider. A lack of nitrogen is one of the big gaps that nutrients fill and a lack of nitrogen can (I think) be a precursor to the production of H2S. One solution might be to ensure a vigorous fermentation to blow off the hydrogen sulfide

 

[RD52]

Just a data point for you, but my first batch of mead, one gallon with 2.5lbs of honey and 40ozs of the same apple juice you're using, with D47 yeast has fermented out completely (0.996 SG) in 5 weeks. No nutrients at all, didn't rehydrate the yeast, just opened the package and dumped it in.

 

[Valcarion]

Not an expert cider maker by any stretch of the imagination but not all apples are rich in nitrogen - and indeed there is a British and French approach to cider making called skeeving that deliberately uses / creates a lack of nitrogen to produce a naturally sweeter cider. A lack of nitrogen is one of the big gaps that nutrients fill and a lack of nitrogen can (I think) be a precursor to the production of H2S. One solution might be to ensure a vigorous fermentation to blow off the hydrogen sulfide

Interesting. I wonder if I’ll end up with a bit more sweetness this time around by not using any additional nitrogen.

Fermentation was as vigorous as the first batch, just eating points a bit slower. A bit of H2S, but it’s easily degassed.


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[Valcarion]

Just a data point for you, but my first batch of mead, one gallon with 2.5lbs of honey and 40ozs of the same apple juice you're using, with D47 yeast has fermented out completely (0.996 SG) in 5 weeks. No nutrients at all, didn't rehydrate the yeast, just opened the package and dumped it in.

Good to know! I love this juice, super tasty


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[Valcarion]

So I checked the gravity today, 48 hours after pitch. 1.010. So it’s about 10 points less than the first batch. Sulfur smell is still present but I’m able to get rid of it by degassing. Tastes great, starting to get pretty dry. So far not so bad!


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[Stasis]

Just a data point for you, but my first batch of mead, one gallon with 2.5lbs of honey and 40ozs of the same apple juice you're using, with D47 yeast has fermented out completely (0.996 SG) in 5 weeks. No nutrients at all, didn't rehydrate the yeast, just opened the package and dumped it in.

Interesting. What about sulphur smells?

I think it's possible that while a ferment can still finish until completion without any off flavors, adding nutrients could still benefit taste and aroma. An article I read a while back which I posted in a thread called "I think we are over feeding our yeast" or some such, stated that some amino acids i.e. organic nutrients contributed to aroma and taste. It's possible that some amount of Fermaid O is always beneficial. I'd have to make an experiment and blind taste tests to confirm this though. Problem is that I always mention experiments but I surely don't have time to do them all

 

[Valcarion]

Interesting. What about sulphur smells?

I think it's possible that while a ferment can still finish until completion without any off flavors, adding nutrients could still benefit taste and aroma. An article I read a while back which I posted in a thread called "I think we are over feeding our yeast" or some such, stated that some amino acids i.e. organic nutrients contributed to aroma and taste. It's possible that some amount of Fermaid O is always beneficial. I'd have to make an experiment and blind taste tests to confirm this though. Problem is that I always mention experiments but I surely don't have time to do them all

I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re correct. I’m on a cider kick right now just because of how cheap it is, and the next batch will be with goferm and Fermaid O, so I’ll have 3 ways of making the same stuff to compare. Once it’s all carbonated I’ll do a blind test and report back.


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[Stasis]

problem is they have to be made in the exact same way for a fair comparison. When they're made weeks apart and with other different factors there's the risk that other factors are affecting the taste as well, not just the nutrients.
Btw that article named very specific amino acids fermented in very specific ways. There's no telling if there's any real world affect without testing it

 

[Valcarion]

problem is they have to be made in the exact same way for a fair comparison. When they're made weeks apart and with other different factors there's the risk that other factors are affecting the taste as well, not just the nutrients.
Btw that article named very specific amino acids fermented in very specific ways. There's no telling if there's any real world affect without testing it

That’s true. Ah well, it isn’t perfect science, but I’m sure I’ll figure out which way I like best with this brand of juice at least. Of course knowing my luck the brand will get discontinued as soon as I have a good recipe


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[RD52]

Interesting. What about sulphur smells?

I think it's possible that while a ferment can still finish until completion without any off flavors, adding nutrients could still benefit taste and aroma. An article I read a while back which I posted in a thread called "I think we are over feeding our yeast" or some such, stated that some amino acids i.e. organic nutrients contributed to aroma and taste. It's possible that some amount of Fermaid O is always beneficial. I'd have to make an experiment and blind taste tests to confirm this though. Problem is that I always mention experiments but I surely don't have time to do them all

I haven't noticed any in the 3 tastings I've done, and just racked this evening and didn't notice any then either.

Will likely add a bit of Fermaid O to the next batch, I take it that's the nutrient of choice for a honey/apple juice mix?

 

[Kamabnogs]

Second batch of cider no nutrient experiment

Hi,

If you have another bucket, you could rack the cider off the lees into the new bucket and sweeten it there.

You can add sugar to the bottles but its a lot easier in a second bucket because you know that youll end up with a consistent product. Its also a lot easier to add one large quantity of sugar to a bucket than to add little bits to loads of bottles. Also, its probably a good idea to dissolve the sugar in water first to make sure it mixes well.

Re campden tablets, I havent used them but always thought they needed about 48 hours.

If you do have or buy a second bucket, you could rack the cider into it and mix in the campden tablets, leave it for however long it needs, then sweeten it, seal it, and put the airlock back in and give it a week there to check it doesnt start fermenting again, and if all looks good, go ahead and bottle it. A demijohn would be better for this though, if you can get your hands on the right sized one, as therell be less exposure to air during that time.