Slow Fermentation?

DHicks908 · Dec 16, 2014

Here's my recipe...

Oak-Aged Dark Maple Cyser

approx. 25L batch (about 6.5 gallons)

approx. 5 gal unpasteurized apple cider

16.5 lb dark wildflower honey

2.5 lb (1 qt) Grade A Dark Amber maple syrup
1 lb dark brown cane sugar
1 lb golden Belgian candi syrup

this made my original gravity 1.155!!! or approx. 35 brix

added 1 tsp DAP (meant to add 2 tsp) to must and 2g Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)

Yeast - Lalvin k1-V1116 (10g)
rehydrated in 10g Go-Ferm then slowly added equal parts of must several times before pitching

staggered remaining nutreint additions (2 tsp Dap + 2g MgSO4 every other day for a total of 8 tsp DAP 8g MgSO4)

Aerated and degassed using a Helix paint mixer that attaches to my drill (got it at Sherwin Williams, ten bucks... HIGHLY recommended)

Going to rack onto oak chips that have been soaking in dark Jamaican rum in secondary carboy along with 1/2 tsp tannin

SOOOO my questions are....

1. it is hour 60 after pitching and my fermentation seems slow. SG dropped from 1.155 to 1.140 or about 3 brix. This is the first time i have started in a 30L fermenter bucket and I know they are notoriously leaky... but im getting NO airlock activity (my airlock is a hose into a gallon of sanitary solution)

2. was 10g of K1-V116 enough for 25L of a super high gravity must?

3. i read on white labs that with high gravity you should double the nutrients... but being that im making a cyser will the apple cider supply a decent amount of nutrients?

4. p.s. ive never checked pH in my life so i dont know how crucial this is

Squatchy · Dec 16, 2014

So I have some more questions for you.

What temp did you make your rehydaration liquid? Was if just water? Did you add go ferm? Did you leave it sit longer that 20-30 minutes without feeding it something? Did you sprinkle it on top of the water and let it sit like that without disturbing it? Did it "proof",,, show signs of life? Did you gradually feed your yeast some must,,, bit by bit, both to attemperate (temp) and to get them more used to the OG ?

When you did pitch were the temps of your must and of your starter within 10 degrees of each other? You have zero temp info. That is important! You may have killed most of your yeast before you even got started.

Did you areate the must before you pitched? Was the honey blended well?

If you can answer those questions one by one. In the order listed we can help you much more

Squatchy · Dec 16, 2014

Well, I see I asked a couple of questions I didn't need to. The others could still give us enough info to help

DHicks908 · Dec 16, 2014

Hey bud thanks for responding! this is my first post on this site.

For the rehydration questions. i heated to 110 deg F and mixed in 10 g Go-Ferm Protect and let cool to 104 deg F then added 10 g k1v1116. waited 20 mins then mixed in equal parts must. did that every fifteen minutes like 2 more times till it reached 68 deg F (same as must) and pitched um in.

I aerated the heck out of it with helix paint mixer for power drill pre-pitch and post-pitch a couple times a day. used this same tool to mix all the sugars together.

and honestly i think i was simply impatient because after aerating once more after posting and giving an early nutrient addition activity picked up significantly. just want to make sure it completes around 18% so im left with the residual sugars im looking for!

how do you feel about my nutrients additions? is 8 tsp DAP and 8g Magnesium sulfate (given in 4 equal doses every other day) adequate considering the apple cider should also supply some nutrient? i dont want to add excessive nitrogen or magnesium sulfate (epsom salt can be a laxative lol)

DHicks908 · Dec 16, 2014

Also... how do you feel about the use of tannin AND oak chips? 1/2 tsp tannin is low balling... as for the oak chips I'm using 28g (1 oz) heavy toast and 8.5g light toast blend thats been soaking in dark Jamaican rum. I've read one ounce per 5 gallons is legit, so I did the math to get the difference since I'm fermenting about 6.5 gallons (hence the 8.5g of light)

Squatchy · Dec 16, 2014

Hi again

I'm pretty new to all this but I have read and reread everything I can over and over. Go-Ferm should be used at 1.5 the weight of your yeast. So, you were a little short on that amount. Also 1 tsp of Go Ferm = 2.8 grams.

You did really well on the temp things. I thought, since you didn't mention it, you might have not know better. I have read that oak chips are not near as good as "cubes". I have only used chips so far as well. Apparently the cubes are a more rounded effect where the chips are mono dimension able. I think most on here would add the oaking in the secondary or even latter racking's and check by taste for effect.

I really can't speak to using Epsom salt.

Your Staggered Nutrient additions should be as follows.

I believe most would add Potassium Carbonate to buffer your pH levels as per manufactures recommend. I believe I use 1 gram per gallon. Also pectinase as per to maximize fruit juices and keeps the fruit color better,,,,

Then you should make three nutrient additions. One at pitch, 1/3 sugar break, 2/3 sugar break. Use a ratio of 2 parts Fermaid to one part DAP. I blend them in bulk when I buy them and the I measure from the bulk blend. I use .75 tsp per feeding. Prior to each feeding you want to gently aerate to get the c02 out of your fermentor. Go easy so as not to foam over and continue in short burst until you can get more aggressive until all gases are gone. Mix your blend of nutrients in a clean container with a bit of must. Mix well and then SLOWLY add your food a bit at a time, so as to not cause explosions, and then mix in with your drill/mixer. Leave you bucket cover with your lid but not pressed down. Or cover with a cloth or such. This is to allow your must to breath. Once you are at your last feed then cover with your lid tightly and add your air lock. From that point forward do not aerate. Once a day, or every other, gently stir to mix your yeast back into suspension. This will keep your yeast happy and working and will taste better and will also eventually help clearing once you get ready to rack.

Hope that helps

DHicks908 · Dec 16, 2014

thanks man def helped. fermaid is one thing i havent tried yet but its mentioned soo much that i think ill try using it. with high gravity meads/cysers its so easy to get a sluggish fermentation if you dont stay on top of things.

Squatchy · Dec 16, 2014

One other thing. You could start out when you pitch with not such a high OG. Once things get moving you could then add the last of your sugars/honey. That would be a little easier on the little guys

DHicks908 · Dec 16, 2014

I think I might try that after I have a recipe that I think tastes great and I'm positive of the OG so i can make accurate notes along the way. I always use the same local cider and same local dark wildflower honey so there shouldn't be much of a variance in sugar content. thanks for the help!

EJM3 · Dec 17, 2014

Step feeding is another great method for adding sugars to get a high ABV and/or residual sugars. Basically you start with a must of say 1.120 ferment is down to 1.005 or thereabouts, then add honey to bring the SG back to the point you like sweetness level, then let ferment, add, ferment, etc.. The yeast will eventually crap out on you, but you can also push a yeast WAY over it's tolerance (D47 can go to 18% or higher, K1V 21% or higher) using this method. I have used K1V and tried to get a sweet mead and instead ended up with an even higher ABV than I planned. Other times I have tried to get dry and stopped sweet. This is a learning process that just takes time and experience.

The way I have learned the most is to find what failed my expectations, looks over the notes, ask advice, and try again. Only one of my 23 ferments to date needed a tossing (I know they say to never toss one, but this was WAY worse than "Satan's Anus"), the rest have either been drunk, or are in secondary bulk aging before going into tertiary for bulk aging then bottling.

The yeasties have a lot to say in the matter, but they do NOT take instruction, read, or listen to anything we say and will merrily process things in their time and to their level of completeness (or not).

These are my experiences so YMMV.

Stasis · Dec 17, 2014

Agree with what EJM3 said about step feeding. I'll just add that by step feeding you would also avoid the ferment stalling out on you and leaving you with something overly sweet which has to be restarted

EJM3 · Dec 17, 2014

Or add some more water to the mix and bring the SG down to under 1.140. Osmotic shock might not always kill but can cripple the yeasties and make for an "interesting" fermentation (tried a 1.150 and it STANK!) that can require a longer than normal aging period...

DHicks908 · Dec 18, 2014

thanks for the input everyone... has anyone else ever used maple syrup?? this is my second go-about with it.. the first time i added wayy to much. It doesnt take much.

curgoth · Dec 19, 2014

If you search on "acerglyn" you'll find a pile of recipes with maple syrup. Acerglyn is the most common term for a mead made from honey and maple syrup.

EJM3 · Dec 19, 2014

Wrathwilde is a notable that created the "Wrathwilde's Acerglyn Aphrodisiac" recipe as well.

DHicks908 · Dec 19, 2014

Nice! that makes sense that its called acerglyn because the Latin word for Maple is Acer. sugar maple is Acer saccharum

DHicks908 · Dec 20, 2014

I got paranoid again this morning. I'm right before the 1/2 sugar break (I'm at 19 brix and i started at 35) and i saw no bubbles or obvious signs of active fermentation. I added two addition teaspoons of DAP and 2 more grams of magnesium sulfate. I then rehydrated and assimilated 5 more grams of K1-V1116 before pitching in fermenter. an hour later i can see signs of active fermentation.

I've read so many different posts on super high gravity meads and the amount of nutrients to use, some saying to use up to 2 or 3 times the normal amount. but i never see sources or anything to warrant such claims. I also dont know the nitrogen content of apple cider. that would help. so I'm really just making constant observations and a bunch of educated guesses

EJM3 · Dec 20, 2014

I'd be careful of 3x the DAP! That can leave some serious nastiness from what people say. Those that use it regularly can chime in better.

Sometimes when they say "high gravity" they mean "high ABV" instead. There is a mead by the name of "półtorak" that uses 1 part honey and 1/2 part water, or the "dwójniak" at 1 part honey and 1 part water. There is no way for ANY yeast to ferment that, so they use all kinds of things like ferment to as high an ABV as possible, add the extra honey, and fortify with "grain spirits" (everclear).

Just throwing massive amounts of DAP at it constantly is not going to help much from what I have been learning...

DHicks908 · Dec 21, 2014

so here is what I was pondering... is the nutrient content just based off of the volume of the must or does it have a correlation with how many packets of yeast you use??? more yeast need more nutrients, or is that a bad way to look at it??

GntlKnigt1 · Dec 21, 2014

My experience with maple syrup is that it is wasted unless used in back sweetening. It loses flavor if fermented. At a certain point, you can overfeed yeast, resulting in a bitter final product unless using Fermaid O. Adding more yeast won't move the problem.

Slow Fermentation?

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