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  1. #21
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    Folks, let's please be careful not to criticize the religious beliefs of others. We all have our own peculiar rituals and practices, and we each stand squarely in the middle of a glass house with rock in hand. And while I'm no Islamic scholar, my understanding is that observant Islamic women choose to keep their hair covered as a sign of their modesty and as an element of faith, not because they expect males act uncontrollably.

    I do believe that addiction exists, and that it is not simply a matter of moral or character weakness, though I acknowledge that people can (and must) make choices to overcome addiction. Alcoholics do not require our "understanding" to relapse. They tend to do so regardless of societal acceptance. However, in a society that recognizes it as a problem and supports treatment, it may be easier for alcoholics to face up to their problem and take responsibility for overcoming it.
    Lanne pase toujou pi bon
    (Past years are always better)

  2. #22
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    MooCow, I take no offence, but my comment was not in relation to sober ppl making choices, just that some ppl once they've started drinking, find that alcohol impairs their ability to stop drinking.
    If the ppl i mention above find they are becoming alcoholic, then they need to stop drinking altogether.
    I was not talking about addicts, merely noting that alcohol affects us differently, and some ppl if they have a few, wont stop until forced to either by friends of loss of consciousness. I used to despise some of my mates who were angry-drunks or vomiters or passing-out-in-the-corner drunks. I have come to the realisation that whilst I can have perfectly clear thought (wonky footsteps, slurred words and erratic behaviour) after a few drinks, this is not the same for everybody. So now when I get pissed, I reserve some effort to ensure my mates enjoy it as much as I do, without degrading themselves (too much)
    I believe all addicts need help to decide they don't need it, and to work on not giving into the desire.
    Last night I was notified of a friend of mine who passed due to drug abuse, so this is rather poignent for me atm.

    Addiction is a disease. Physical addiction required the substance in order for the body to function. Luckily detox is usually reasonably easy, especially if medical personal are around. Whether drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or even sugar (yes I know some1 who was a sugar addict) The DTs can be pretty difficult to get through.
    This however is not 'case closed'

    The non-disease part is the most problematic, the 'Mental disease' where the brain 'wants' the substance of abuse. I have NFI how this is to be cured except by abstinence and time and support.

    WRT driving, I would not be adverse to reformed alcoholics needing regular testing for the rest of their lives should they wish a driver's licence. If you have been proven a drink driver (and by this I mean crazy drunk, not 0.051), then complete abstinence should required in order to allow you a licence.

    WRT Muslims: I disagree with lots of Sharīʿah law. But that's me, and I'm not Muslim. You can't condemn some1's culture. If it's antiquated, unfair, oppressive or cruel, then it needs to be changed from within, not without, we need no further holy wars.
    I know and love many muslims, some who wear head coverings. Most wear them by choice, some vehemently hate them and have moved to my country to avoid such things (and to enjoy alcohol without fearing the police)

    Your comment about the moon, and the implied relationship I found to be pure unfounded bigotry.
    Last edited by kudapucat; 09-08-2011 at 12:52 AM.
    Mae'r teithiau golau ceffyl eto

  3. #23

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    While my kids are still too young to do much helping during my brew sessions. They are always out and about playing in the back yard where I brew.

    And, my two year old consistently dips his head and fingers into the empty mash tun to pick a few residual, sticky, malt barley grains to munch on...

  4. #24
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    Woodridge, IL
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    You know, I have a 4757809579 page response typed up to both Medsen and Kudapucat. But I'm just gonna trash it. I screwed up bringing the Fundamentalist Muslim issue into the mix. That's another topic all on it's own. My tendency for "non-linear", cross topic thinking gets me in trouble again. Ah well.

    Kudapucat: If you found the statement bigoted, I appologize. I stand by it as a factual statement (Arabian countries lag behind Western in science and technology, and part of the problem is /Fundamentalist/ Islam), but I think that's a discussion that's just a bit too heavy for this board.

    I will say that I think most people's understanding of alcoholism is deeply flawed. It really has nothing to do with the drug. Alcoholism is the symptom, not the disease. It's the same disease that leads to drug addiction, sex addiction, gambling addiction, etc. A sad fact about alcoholism is that most alcoholics never really become happy functional people. Alcoholics Anonymous, one of the most successful programs in the world, has a success rate of under 20%. Oh, people may be dry, but they're never really functional. Part of the reason for that is they never address the core problems that led them to drink. And part of the reason for /that/ is because society keeps insisting that the problem is the addiction, when the addiction is just a sympton of the problem.

  5. #25
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    Many things can cause addiction, and these are mostly mental issues. As I mentioned, I have NFI how to deal with that nebulous stuff, especially as I have no personal experience and therefore understanding of it.
    I think we agree on a lot, just not on how we express our ideas.
    Anyhow this is so far OT ATM that I think we should probably leave it be.
    Mae'r teithiau golau ceffyl eto

  6. #26
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    I don't dissagree about what most of mrcow says about alcoholism, addiction in general is largely mental and is largely simpley the fault of the person.

    But, to say that it has nothing to do with the drug is just simply scientifically incorrect though. No personal opinion involved, just cold hard fact. The drug does chemically addict the person, there is no arguing against this, some drugs will flat out KILL YOU if you quit them cold turkey, that is how powerful the chemical hold on the brain is.

    The fact that some addictions that seem just as powerful exist without any chemical hold does not mean that the chemical hold on a person isn't real, or isn't significant.

    We can argue all day about whether the chemical addiction or the mental addiction/weakness is the primary or foremost cause of any given addiction - we should not argue about this though because we're going to end up in a personal-opinion-fest.

    EDIT: And yes mrmoocow, not the forum for the hard religious debates! Some (not all, not MOST) Fundamentalist + extremist Islamics do literally use any showing of skin/hair etc as a legal way to justify rape. You are correct that that is a fact, though the way you phrased it made it sound more widespread than it really is (this is a minority we're talking about, only a small minority of Islamic women cover themselves to that degree in the first place, and there is actually a good and interesting historical basis for why the coverings were first implimented). The moon thing is an exaggeration, "we" went to the moon to show off to Russia. But, yes, often fundamentalist religion holds back science, we saw this in Europe with the dark ages with Christianity. So your point is taken on that one!
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  7. #27
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    AToE: You're correct. My connotative tendencies betray me again. Yes people become physically addicted to substances. The problem is that unless you address how they got to that point, dealing with the physical addiction is kind of pointless.

    Anyway.... I suppose I got a bit worked up over a harmless throw away comment by kudapucat (suppose? Did). My appologies for that. I've been on the receiving end of the train wreck that is a person who spent a lifetime being protected from the consequences of her actions by people who told themselves the lie of "can not". I survived without physical injury, but it's been a long two years trying to pay off the $25k bill. If someone prior to me had been less "understanding and supportive" and more critical of the behaviors in question, I'd have been spared a hell of a lot of trouble. Spare the rod, spoil the child and all that.

    Can we go back to making mead now? Arguing makes me thirsty.

    As for the Moon thing, it's more an extreme example then an exageration. But.... we'll just drop it.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMooCow View Post
    And part of the reason for /that/ is because society keeps insisting that the problem is the addiction, when the addiction is just a sympton of the problem.
    At my friend's NA meetings, she said there wasn't a single person there who hadn't been abused as a child, so maybe there's some truth in that.

    That said, a lot of people who are addicted to one thing often go from one to another to another and I think I've seen studies linking the addictive tendencies to genetics.

    But from what I know of the recovered addicts I do know well, they can be perfectly functional, but it's always there, always nagging you to come back to it, and it never goes away even after 20 years clean/sober/smoke-free.

    ANd yes, let's get back to making mead, shall we? I've got a cyser to get underway!
    "The main ingredient needed is 'time' followed closely by 'patience'." - The Bishop 2013
    "When you consider that laziness and procrastination are the fundamentals of great mead, it is a miracle that the mazer cup happens." Medsen Fey, 2014
    "Sure it can be done. I've never heard of it, but I do things I've never heard if all the time. That is the beauty of being a brewer!" - Loveofrose, 2014
    "I tend to....um, er, experiment, and go outside the box. Sometimes outside the whole department store." - Ebonhawk, 2014

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMooCow View Post
    AToE: You're correct. My connotative tendencies betray me again. Yes people become physically addicted to substances. The problem is that unless you address how they got to that point, dealing with the physical addiction is kind of pointless.
    Now this I agree with 100%. I'm currently a smoker because I'm addicted to smoking. How did I get addicted? By being an idiot. Nuff said.

    As for the Moon thing, it's more an extreme example then an exageration. But.... we'll just drop it.
    Fair enough. I'll quote Medsen's old signature though correlation is not causation!
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AToE View Post
    ...But, to say that it has nothing to do with the drug is just simply scientifically incorrect though. No personal opinion involved, just cold hard fact. The drug does chemically addict the person, there is no arguing against this, some drugs will flat out KILL YOU if you quit them cold turkey, that is how powerful the chemical hold on the brain is.
    Delerium Tremens is a medical condition which can be life threatening if not treated. Opiate withdrawal, while an unpleasant experience, is not life threatening.

    Oh, and it's not too late to quit smoking...come to think of it, it's not too early either!

    MrMoo, I note that in your profile you are a self described alcoholic. What do you mean by that? How do you define the word with respect to yourself?

    Just to throw in another paradigm or two, from a shamanic perspective addiction is a condition that warrants healing intervention...an extraction, or perhaps psychopomp work. What'll it be...the Spirits...or the spirit-in-the-bottle...Hmmm. Food for thought.
    Making Mead With TLC since 2010

  11. #31
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    Oh yeah, I'm going to be quitting (again) with my mom at the end of the month!

    One other thing to take into acount with alcoholism is that some ethnicities are actually quite literally predisposed to it, I believe it's the lower alcohol tolerance overall.
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AToE View Post
    Oh yeah, I'm going to be quitting (again) with my mom at the end of the month!
    Good on ya, Mate! What's your Quit Date? I'll certainly be holding you and your mom in my thoughts (and prayers, although I know that doesn't hold much water with you...).


    Quote Originally Posted by AToE View Post
    One other thing to take into acount with alcoholism is that some ethnicities are actually quite literally predisposed to it, I believe it's the lower alcohol tolerance overall.
    Not to mention those who genetically lack alcohol dehydrogenase and get beet red from just a sip.
    Making Mead With TLC since 2010

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAlchemist View Post
    Good on ya, Mate! What's your Quit Date? I'll certainly be holding you and your mom in my thoughts (and prayers, although I know that doesn't hold much water with you...).
    Oct 1st. And thank you, I'm pretty confident the prayers at least won't do any harm, and I appreciate the thought of it! (I've never really understood what prayers (other than just the devotional/worship kind) were for, but the thought is very nice!).
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AToE View Post
    Oct 1st.
    Live Long! And Prosper!
    Making Mead With TLC since 2010

  15. #35

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    For me, prayer is a time just to talk to my gods. I'm not asking for anything, not begging or placating, it usually involves a glass of mead and a conversation. Sometimes I work over a problem in my life, sometimes I tell them my plans for the coming weeks, sometimes I just tell them something awesome that happened and I'm pretty sure that they rock my socks.

    Beyond that, good for quitting! Not sure what it is, but quitting any addiction is always worth the time!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soyala_Amaya View Post
    For me, prayer is a time just to talk to my gods. I'm not asking for anything, not begging or placating, it usually involves a glass of mead and a conversation. Sometimes I work over a problem in my life, sometimes I tell them my plans for the coming weeks, sometimes I just tell them something awesome that happened and I'm pretty sure that they rock my socks.

    Beyond that, good for quitting! Not sure what it is, but quitting any addiction is always worth the time!
    I'm quitting smoking. Again. Blah.

    That kind of prayer makes sense to me, I just get confused by the asking for stuff kind, more specifically the asking for stuff for someone else kind! But that's a deeper theological discussion in and of itself!
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  17. #37
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    Bare bones simplest prayer:
    Not my will, but thine.
    Making Mead With TLC since 2010

  18. #38
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    Should will power have a physical manifestation, prayers for other ppl would work.
    If everybody wants to help an unfortunate and expresses that in prayer, then by being in their thoughts, the community will help subconsciously. I don't think God will step in, but thinking that he will, helps. Perhaps that is him stepping in.
    I heard a quote once that went something like this: "worrying is just praying for bad things to happen"
    I know that a worrying person is not as productive as a hopeful one, so prayers for others serve a purpose.
    My 2c
    Mae'r teithiau golau ceffyl eto

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudapucat View Post
    I know that a worrying person is not as productive as a hopeful one, so prayers for others serve a purpose.
    My 2c
    That works for me! Plus stress is bad for one's health. AND positive thinking/believing in something has been shown to help speed recovery and improve survival rates in serious medical situations. Interestingly it doesn't matter what a person believes in, just that they have faith in the situation. The mind is a part of the body after all!
    ~AToE (A Thing of Eternity... it's a nerd thing...)

    AKA: Alan H

  20. #40
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    Not to be off topic but my three year old helps me bottle and such. She has not had a drinking problem yet.

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