Hoppy Pale Ale Braggot

[mccann51]

Preliminary ingredients:
3lbs 2-row malt
2lbs some other malts to be decided
5lbs orange blossom honey (props to Jayich for this inspiration)
0.75oz Warrior at 60min
0.75oz Simcoe at 30min
0.5oz Citra at 5min
0.5oz Citra at flameout
1oz Sorachi Ace dry-hopped
0.25oz Warrior elsewhere in boil to be decided
0.25oz Simcoe elsewhere in boil to be decided
Safale US-05
1tsp DAP (or Fermaid K if it's advised)

So my issues are determining when to put in the other 0.25oz of Warrior and Simcoe to get more complexity and flavor from these two hops, and what the other two lbs of the grain bill should be. I'd be interested in knowing what are typical malts to use for a pale ale or IPA, but I'm also curious what you guys think of using rye in a pale. I've just started to get a handle on the tangy flavor that rye imparts, and it seems like it might go well in a hoppy pale ale, but then again, I've never heard of rye in a hoppy beer, and it seems like if it was good, there'd be people doing it.

Thanks!

 

[fathand]

Rye in a Hoppy Beer is delicious. Some folks call it a RyePA. Founder's brewing makes a great rye beer with lots of hops called Red's Rye.

I did a partial mash rye with the following grain bill...

6 lbs Light LME
3 lbs Rye Malt
2 lbs Two Row
1.25 lbs Crystal 60
.5 lbs Wheat Malt
.5 lbs Cara-pils

As for the extra hops why not dry hop them?

 

[jayich]

Preliminary ingredients:
3lbs 2-row malt
2lbs some other malts to be decided
5lbs orange blossom honey (props to Jayich for this inspiration)
0.75oz Warrior at 60min
0.75oz Simcoe at 30min
0.5oz Citra at 5min
0.5oz Citra at flameout
1oz Sorachi Ace dry-hopped
0.25oz Warrior elsewhere in boil to be decided
0.25oz Simcoe elsewhere in boil to be decided
Safale US-05
1tsp DAP (or Fermaid K if it's advised)

So my issues are determining when to put in the other 0.25oz of Warrior and Simcoe to get more complexity and flavor from these two hops, and what the other two lbs of the grain bill should be. I'd be interested in knowing what are typical malts to use for a pale ale or IPA, but I'm also curious what you guys think of using rye in a pale. I've just started to get a handle on the tangy flavor that rye imparts, and it seems like it might go well in a hoppy pale ale, but then again, I've never heard of rye in a hoppy beer, and it seems like if it was good, there'd be people doing it.

Thanks!

I can tell you that my IPA braggot is OK but could have been better by using specialty malts. In my brew, which was made from an experimental SMaSH IPA(single malt, single hops) wort, there is not enough malt complexity. I would recommend that you consider using rye malt, Munich malt, crystal malt, and an aromatic malt like Belgium aromatic, melanoidin, or Victory, all of which I have used to make some tasty IPA's. Regarding rye malt, I usually use 1.5lbs in my IPA's. If you really want a citrus blast, you could easily increase the Citra hops to 1 or two ozs. at flame out and 1/2 to 1 oz. dry hopped. Oh, I am assuming your batch size is 5 or 6 gallons. I have some Sorachi but I have not used it- it supposed to impart a lemony flavor, which I think would be very nice.

 

[mccann51]

Awesome, I'm really glad to hear you guys back up the rye idea. I was thinking a lb of malted rye and a lb of something else (I'm assuming 2lbs of rye is too much, maybe not though). Perhaps I'll use crystal 10L or 40L as the rest.

Oh, and yes, this is intended to be a five gallon.

Will the Warrior and Simcoe much in terms of flavor or aroma if added late in the boil or for dry hopping? I could add some of the Sorachi at the end of the boil and then dry hop with the rest of the Sorachi, Warrior, and Simcoe.

 

[jayich]

Awesome, I'm really glad to hear you guys back up the rye idea. I was thinking a lb of malted rye and a lb of something else (I'm assuming 2lbs of rye is too much, maybe not though). Perhaps I'll use crystal 10L or 40L as the rest.

Oh, and yes, this is intended to be a five gallon.

Will the Warrior and Simcoe much in terms of flavor or aroma if added late in the boil or for dry hopping? I could add some of the Sorachi at the end of the boil and then dry hop with the rest of the Sorachi, Warrior, and Simcoe.

I don't think 2lbs. of rye malt would hurt- it just depends on how much rye flavor you want. I made a RyePA I think using 3 or 3.5 lbs. of rye and the rye flavor was not overwhelming. I usually use 1 to 1.5 lbs. in my Amer. IPA's
which gives a more subtle dry, spicy rye flavor. I have used Simcoe both at the end of the boil and as a dry hop and it imparts a very nice ? floral or raspberry-like aroma. Warrior is used for bittering usually, but I think it is also a decent aroma hops. If you want to use crystal malt I would lean towards 20 or 40L for a little more flavor and color.
Good luck.

 

[mccann51]

Thanks, that's very helpful!

 

[mccann51]

What's a good aeration schedule for braggots? I'm not planning on making a starter for this. I was thinking of using Safale US-05; if I'm not making a starter, should I get two packets to reduce aeration requirements?

 

[Fisher kel Tath]

What's a good aeration schedule for braggots? I'm not planning on making a starter for this. I was thinking of using Safale US-05; if I'm not making a starter, should I get two packets to reduce aeration requirements?

MrMalty pitching calculator, says you'll need 12g of yeast. so if you get an 11.5g pack, you'd prolly be fine

 

[akueck]

This isn't too high a gravity, if my quick mental math is correct (~8%?). I'd aerate at pitch, once after lag, and then just let it go.

 

[Fisher kel Tath]

i put the grain bill into beersmith (3lbs 2-row, 2lbs other (went with rye malt) and 5lbs honey) said 1.060

 

[biochemedic]

Rye and hops are awesome...Founders Red is good, many other commercial examples abound (Terrapin brewing makes both a standard and a double Rye pale ale, and Bear Republic makes Racer 5 and Hop Rod Rye)

@jayich...I also use 2 lbs rye in a 5 gal batch, and it seems to be well balanced. (I agree that 2 lbs is definitely not too much.) I might be willing to try the 3 or 3.5 lbs, but did you have any issues with sparging that?

 

[mccann51]

Yeah, I was estimating ~1.060 (1.035 from the 5 lbs honey, 1.025 from the 5 lbs grain).

I'll go with a light aeration, then.

I'd really like to try some of these hop-n-rye brews. I've been keeping my eye out for em. I'm leaning towards the 2lbs of rye, but may go with 1lb rye-1lb crystal depending on how the mood strikes me.

 

[mccann51]

I brewed this up tonight. We used Safale US-05. It doesn't say to rehydrate on the packet, but I did anyway. I'm not concerned I did anything wrong, but I am curious if anybody knows a good reason why they wouldn't recommend rehydrating. Is it a beer thing, or simply poor directions?

 

[akueck]

My understanding of those directions is that you have so much yeast (11 g) that you can afford for a ton of them to die when you pitch dry. Seems silly, doesn't it? I rehydrate those things too.

 

[mccann51]

Does seem silly! Well, glad to hear I'm in good company when it comes to rehydration.

 

[Medsen Fey]

Any follow-up on how this one turned out? I've been cogitating about a recipe for a pale ale braggot, and this sounds interesting. That's a lot of hops in the boil - something like 70 IBUs, right?

 

[mccann51]

Hey, Medsen.

Yes, it turned out very well! I've been meaning to update this, but never got around to it.

It hasn't aged fully (kind of a trade-off between the honey mellowing and the hops fading), but early tastings (ie most of it got drank) at two months were very good, with the orange blossom honey playing off the hops well, as hoped. I definitely plan to brew this again.

The recipe if you're interested:

Hoppy-Ryey-Pale-Ale-Braggot (5 gal recipe; 4.3 gal actual volume)
3 lbs American 2-row
2 lbs malted rye
4 lbs orange blossom (all honey added to carboy, not mash)
1 lb wildflower
0.75 oz Warrior (60 min)
0.5 oz Simcoe (30 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe (15 min)
0.5 oz Citra (5 min)
0.25 oz Warrior (5 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe (5 min)
0.5 oz Sorachi Ace (5 min)
0.5 oz Citra (flameout)
0.5 oz Sorachi Ace (flameout)
4 oz maltodextrin at flameout
Safale US-05 rehydrated
1 tsp Fermaid K
OG 1.070 (at 86F)
FG 1.010
primed w ~75 ml sugar in ~75 ml boiled water

That was the intended recipe and hop-program. Unfortunately, as w any good brew session, alcohol was involved and we left the flame on the wort for an extra 5 mins, so the actual hop-program has an additional 5 mins for all those numbers. The end product was a bit "grassy" and I attribute this to the extra 5 mins, but perhaps this is not the cause. That said, the grassiness was not a serious fault (at least for my un-refined palate) and did seem to age out a bit.

The mouthfeel was pretty solid, though personally, I think I'd use Cara-Pils next time as opposed to maltodextrin, or simply mash at a higher temp (my brew-buddy was pulling for the maltodextrin).

I've never calculated IBUs, so unfortunately I have no idea.

 

[commonsenseman]

Hey, Medsen.

Yes, it turned out very well! I've been meaning to update this, but never got around to it.

It hasn't aged fully (kind of a trade-off between the honey mellowing and the hops fading), but early tastings (ie most of it got drank) at two months were very good, with the orange blossom honey playing off the hops well, as hoped. I definitely plan to brew this again.

The recipe if you're interested:

Hoppy-Ryey-Pale-Ale-Braggot (5 gal recipe; 4.3 gal actual volume)
3 lbs American 2-row
2 lbs malted rye
4 lbs orange blossom (all honey added to carboy, not mash)
1 lb wildflower
0.75 oz Warrior (60 min)
0.5 oz Simcoe (30 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe (15 min)
0.5 oz Citra (5 min)
0.25 oz Warrior (5 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe (5 min)
0.5 oz Sorachi Ace (5 min)
0.5 oz Citra (flameout)
0.5 oz Sorachi Ace (flameout)
4 oz maltodextrin at flameout
Safale US-05 rehydrated
1 tsp Fermaid K
OG 1.070 (at 86F)
FG 1.010
primed w ~75 ml sugar in ~75 ml boiled water

That was the intended recipe and hop-program. Unfortunately, as w any good brew session, alcohol was involved and we left the flame on the wort for an extra 5 mins, so the actual hop-program has an additional 5 mins for all those numbers. The end product was a bit "grassy" and I attribute this to the extra 5 mins, but perhaps this is not the cause. That said, the grassiness was not a serious fault (at least for my un-refined palate) and did seem to age out a bit.

The mouthfeel was pretty solid, though personally, I think I'd use Cara-Pils next time as opposed to maltodextrin, or simply mash at a higher temp (my brew-buddy was pulling for the maltodextrin).

I've never calculated IBUs, so unfortunately I have no idea.

So I guess my questions are: What do you think the honey's contribution to a Pale Ale is? Is it up front enough to notice it, or is it more in the background? Is it different enough from a "standard" Pale Ale to be recognizable? Does it taste much more dry than a "standard" Pale Ale? I would think 1.010 would be pretty good for mouthfeel, do you think higher would have been better, or is that about right? What temp did you mash at to achieve that many unfermentables? You already mentioned that you like Orange Blossom with those hops, how about something strong like Buckwheat, too overpowering?

Sorry for so many questions, it's just that I've toyed with making something like this too.

 

[mccann51]

The honey was definitely noticeable. It was pretty well-balanced w the hops, not being in the background, but also not overpowering by any means. I think any mead-drinker would probably be able to pick it out pretty readily (and probably be able to guess orange blossom), and most beer-drinkers (hop-heads specifically) would recognize this as being atypical.

I don't think I'd do it w buckwheat honey, but this could be my personal taste. I do think buckwheat honey would be more dominating where the orange blossom honey is complimenting. I haven't worked w enough varietals to say much, but I would lean more towards using a less intense honey (I could see berry blossom honeys working well... hmm).

The mouthfeel was pretty solid and wasn't noticeably drier than a regular pale ale; in fact, thinking about it, a little drier wouldn't have been bad. Mashed at ~155F, though this was in a brew pot w a stove flame being turned on and off to regulate, so definitely far from exact.

Hope that helps; let us know if you brew something similar!