Kegging, carbonating and aging

[Corcis]

We're brewing a barleywine later this month and I'm thinking about kegging for the first time. This one will be aged for quite a while anyways and a keg will be easier to move around in case I have to move. It'd also be easier to take to my uncle's house and cellar, too. Obviously, never having done this before, I've got some questions.

I'm pretty sure I can find relevant information on loading a keg up, sanitizing it and all the normal things. My question is this: To carbonate the keg, should I wait until I am ready to open it up and force carbonate it or should I prime it with corn sugar immediately? It will be sitting for quite a while, probably til Thanksgiving.

 

[wildaho]

Here are my thoughts, take them for what they are worth:

I tend to bottle my bigger beers and keg the lighter ones. Number One, I'm an ager. I've got bottles of barleywine that are pushing 15 years old. Big beers just get better with age (if you do them right).

If you plan on dispensing your barleywine all at once, kegging is the way to go. But I like to sample my barleywines 2, 3, 5, 10 years later. It's hard to keep pressure on a cornie for more than a month or so.

Anything I do at less than 7% goes immediately into the keg. If they last more than a night or two, oh well!, it will still be gone in a week at most.

Big Beers and Big Meads are best done in bottles. You see what time adds to it that way.

:cheers:
Wade

 

[Vino]

My question is this: To carbonate the keg, should I wait until I am ready to open it up and force carbonate it or should I prime it with corn sugar immediately? It will be sitting for quite a while, probably til Thanksgiving.

IMO, there is a noticeable difference in the taste of naturally carbonated verses forced.

My wife's favorite beer is a clone of Sunsplash Golden Ale...the first 6 or 7 batches I made her were bottled...the last two were force carbonated (I got lazy)...and she complained about the taste and asked me to go back to bottles...instead I added the priming sugar and let it sit for two weeks before setting up on tap...she's happy with it again.

I still use kegs for 70-75% of my beer, but I no longer force carbonate.

I personally think bottled beer is better, but if you plan to keg it...definitely add the priming sugar.

I'm brewing two beers this weekend...both under 7%...both will be bottled.

Ask ten brewers and you'll likely get eleven different answers!

 

[Corcis]

Ask ten brewers and you'll likely get eleven different answers!

The more the better! We would've reached the end of the Internet if it weren't for differences of opinion.

As to the answers - more questions:

Wade - You say it'll be better with age if I do it right. What's your opinion on doing it right? Is it in the process of making, fermenting and bottling? Or does the recipe need to be perfect for it to age well?
Also, the pressure-on-a-keg thing is great to know.

What are peoples' opinions on naturally carbonating? It sounds like a good way for an inexperienced brewer (me) to make a whole batch of bottle bombs. With more experience and a better feel for a strain of yeast, l'd be tempted to try it and see how the results taste.

 

[wildaho]

Hmmm, by doing it right I guess there are a couple of factors. 1.) Long roiling boils, typically 90 minutes for barleywines. 2.) Pitch with a large yeast cell count (use a big starter) 3.) Proper aeration to the 1/3 sugar break in primary, gently swirling afterwards. 4.) Bulk aging in the carboy for at least 6 months. 5.) Avoiding any and all oxygenation after primary. 6.) Natural carbonation.

I, too, prefer natural carbonation rather than force carbonation. Force carbonation seems to enchance the carbonic acid bite where a natural carbonation has tinier bubbles, smoother, creamier texture and less "bite".

I recently posted a quick run down on how to carbonate on this thread. For more detail, check out John Palmer's How To Brew website. He offers fuller detail and provides charts on the amount of sugar needed.

:cheers:
Wade

 

[Corcis]

I see I have some more studying to do, but I should be in a good position equipment-wise. The information on carbonating is good. I'd never think of letting the bottles sit open to generate CO2 in the headspace, definitely a good trick for ensuring they're fine for long-term storage.

So far, my procedure looks like so:
- 2 days before, prep 1/2gal starter at a minimum gravity of 1.080. Pitch with one pack Wyeast PC-9093.
- Brewday one: Make half of the 5gal batch's wort - 2.5gal partial mash. Pitch with starter.
- Brewday two: Make second half of the batch - 2.5gal partial mash, again, add to fermenter, possibly pitch another smack-pack of PC-9093.
- Aerate wort like nuts, possibly add nutrients to keep the suckers alive til 1/3 sugar depletion.
- Swirling to keep them in suspension thereafter.

I've seen the split-wort technique referred to as Texas Two-stepping. The main advantages I'm seeing are better control of color, incorporating more flavor into the wort and being able to use less malt extract. It'll help cut our cost by $10 or so and give us a bit more control. Once I get the recipe setup, I'll post it here and elsewhere for critiquing.

 

[osluder]

It's hard to keep pressure on a cornie for more than a month or so.

I'm not sure I follow this as I've had cornies pressurized for several months at a time. For instance, I've got a smoked weizen that's been (unintentionally) lagering at 45°F and 15 PSI since last May. It seems to me that a cornie should be able to hold pressure indefinitely as long as the seals and poppet valves are good.

To the point of the thread, I prefer natural carbonation as well for all the reasons already covered. -- Olen

 

[wildaho]

...as long as the seals and poppet valves are good.

Even the best seals fail over time. If you want to entrust your must for years in stainless, go for it. I'd rather bottle the big stuff that's going to last me a while. If the seal on a single bottle fails, oh well! I've lost a bottle and not 5 gallons of expensive brew. There's also the convenience factor that bottles offer, not to mention the temptation factor of the keg. It's awfully easy to keep that tap pouring instead of letting it age properly.

But, to each his own... 8)

 

[STLBrewer]

Here are my thoughts, take them for what they are worth:

I tend to bottle my bigger beers and keg the lighter ones. Number One, I'm an ager. I've got bottles of barleywine that are pushing 15 years old. Big beers just get better with age (if you do them right).

If you plan on dispensing your barleywine all at once, kegging is the way to go. But I like to sample my barleywines 2, 3, 5, 10 years later. It's hard to keep pressure on a cornie for more than a month or so.

Anything I do at less than 7% goes immediately into the keg. If they last more than a night or two, oh well!, it will still be gone in a week at most.

Big Beers and Big Meads are best done in bottles. You see what time adds to it that way.

:cheers:
Wade

I am (although I bottle everything) in complete agreement with this whole line of commenting! I like to "try" to age my big beers as well, but haven't had too much success...I drink it all too quickly when it's a good beer! I am just now really getting into the mead thing, so I have no basis for commenting on aging those yet!

 

[Corcis]

Looking back over my earlier post, I have no clue what the heck I meant by naturally carbonating. I guess, maybe, I meant finishing in-bottle. But, really, it doesn't seem like it makes any sense. I've done carbonation naturally (via yeast+corn sugar) before, successfully.

I also might run into some trouble long-term aging. I wasn't sure I would be able to keep bottles hanging around for the year or so til they age the minimum. I had thought about a keg as a means of moving the beer more easily between here and wherever. I know now that I will be living here for another year and a half, so I'm not too worried about this anymore.

 

[CBiebel]

Hmmm, by doing it right I guess there are a couple of factors. 1.) Long roiling boils, typically 90 minutes for barleywines. 2.) Pitch with a large yeast cell count (use a big starter) 3.) Proper aeration to the 1/3 sugar break in primary, gently swirling afterwards. 4.) Bulk aging in the carboy for at least 6 months. 5.) Avoiding any and all oxygenation after primary. 6.) Natural carbonation.


:cheers:
Wade

I have a question here on your aeration to the 1/3 sugar break. I know that it's important with meads, but I thought that you wouldn't want to do that with beers, or is this meant to only apply to the "big" beers, as you put it.

If I were to make, say, a braggot with a predicted ABV of around 5%, would aeration to the 1/3 sugar break be good, or would it oxidize it?

 

[Medsen Fey]

If I were to make, say, a braggot with a predicted ABV of around 5%, would aeration to the 1/3 sugar break be good, or would it oxidize it?

Well it certainly wouldn't be necessary as the yeast can reproduce and metabolize sugar up to that level just with the lipids that are normally present in the cell membrane when rehydrated. The manufacturers try to build up maximal lipid composition before dehydrating them. Same is true with a starter - there will be plenty of lipid and no need to aerate further.
Even for liquid yeast without a starter, a good aeration at pitch time should be more than enough for 5% ABV.

 

[wildaho]

I have a question here on your aeration to the 1/3 sugar break. I know that it's important with meads, but I thought that you wouldn't want to do that with beers, or is this meant to only apply to the "big" beers, as you put it.

If I were to make, say, a braggot with a predicted ABV of around 5%, would aeration to the 1/3 sugar break be good, or would it oxidize it?

With a beer under 7-8%, I just aerate once at pitch time. I've found I get better faster ferments (as in ferments that actually complete) on 9-15% beers by aerating til the 1/3 break. Cell count is important too so starters are necessary. But even then, I'd have 10% beers stall until I started aerating to the third.

Your braggot should be fine with a single aeration.

:cheers:
Wade

 

[CBiebel]

With a beer under 7-8%, I just aerate once at pitch time. I've found I get better faster ferments (as in ferments that actually complete) on 9-15% beers by aerating til the 1/3 break. Cell count is important too so starters are necessary. But even then, I'd have 10% beers stall until I started aerating to the third.

Your braggot should be fine with a single aeration.

:cheers:
Wade

Thanks. That's what I thought, but I figured I'd better make sure. Most of my beer brewing experience comes from working with my brother (he has some really nice equipment, including a huge stainless steel double sink he got from an "everything must go because we are tearing down this casino" type of sale (It was a sink from one of the kitchens). That sink makes cleanup a lot easier). Since he doesn't usually brew many (if any) beers above 6% or so this wouldn't be an issue. His beers are more for the "every day hanging out" types of situations.